"Clean" eater critical of Low Carb

BABetter1 wrote: »

JohnnyPenso wrote: »

The self proclaimed "clean eater" is right but for the wrong reasons. You didn't mention anything about resistance or weight training in your OP, so assuming you aren't doing some intense workouts, you are going to lose muscle mass, it's unavoidable. But it's not because of what you are eating, it's because you are in a calorie deficit and some of the weight you lose will be muscle. Your best shot at maintaining it is to lift some weights or otherwise engage your larger muscles with resistance or bodyweight along the way.

I am definitely not a fitness expert. And please don't take this as an argument when I ask this question. It is a legitimate question, but could come across as sarcastic. I have X amount of lean muscle mass without any attention to diet OR exercise, but I automatically must lose lean muscle mass if I diet and lose weight without strength training? Honestly, I thought (probably read it somewhere) as long as I eat an appropriate amount of protein for my lean muscle mass, I would maintain it (not build it of course, but maintain it).

My current exercise routine consists of elliptical sessions and long hikes on the weekends. I do plan to add in weight lifting at a future date.

If you hike in mountains or hills you are getting a good bit of resistance. Walking up a hill may be "cardio" but it also creates resistance.

He's a fool. This is like a debate on Ford vs. Chevy. He has chosen his brand and will follow whatever marketing woo to it's end.

OP - sounds like you are doing everything right. As for the muscle loss - yes you will lose muscle when in a caloric deficit. Protein will help in protection, but muscle tissue requires stimulus to grow. If you aren't using it your body minimizes maintenance - that goes with everything in a biological system. If you plan on incorporating this in the future I have to ask "why?" I did the same when I started MFP and regret it. This put me back months in my plan where I could have protected muscle loss by incorporating a progressive resistance program at the beginning.

The term "Clean Eating" does not mean healthy and doesn't mean much else to me anymore when everyone uses it regardless of which diet they choose. I really don't have an answer for you because I'm not just going to tell you what you want to hear.

What matters most to me is what type of processed foods I eat that are unhealthy and damaging, rather than healing, my system and proven to promote our leading causes of disease. We all eat processed foods that contain alcohols, chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, gmo's, etc and those should be the exception and not the rule. It doesn't matter if someone thinks their diet is "cleaner and healthier". I let the diets speak for themselves. What kind of ailments does the person have? What diseases? What deficiencies? Is it Sustainable? Is the person always sick and tired? I mean, the questions can go on and on and on and on but no one will divulge the truth about their health problems so arguments over these things are pointless when you don't have all the facts. I do find out from my real friends and family what they are doing and going through from the grapevine and it's normally not good news about the side effects of their diets and ongoing health problems....

Challenges are a great way to motivate others and get in shape so my only advice to you is to not take it personal and use whatever diets you are doing to experiment on yourself, evaluate and track your progress and more importantly, go get a complete blood test before and after to make sure you are getting adequate nutrients and lowering cholesterol and are not promoting diseases. Losing weight does not determine how healthy you are on the inside...

I just challenged my brother to a year long contest because he's trying another diet and I'm 99% certain he is not going to be able to sustain another calorie restrictive diet that includes all the food and alcohol he refuses to give up long term and is always going with that other catch phrase "Everything in Moderation".

"Everything in Moderation" is another prime example of most people just teeter tottering back and forth and never really changing their bad eating habits. It's "mostly" just an "advertisement" for consumers to support the unhealthy food industry. They want nothing more than for all of us to subscribe and convince ourselves and others how it's ok to just moderate our health problems so we can live it up!

Instead of Moderation, I have adopted a different approach to evolve more and more towards healthy eating and stop going back as much every time I move forward! That for me is eating a majority of my diet from plant based whole foods that are actually proven to help fight disease and heal us. We really need to start analyzing our own health and listen to our bodies and rethink our beliefs, traditions and change those habits that are getting us no where. Keep moving in this direction ->->->-> Plant Based

rawroy wrote: »

The term "Clean Eating" does not mean healthy and doesn't mean much else to me anymore when everyone uses it regardless of which diet they choose. I really don't have an answer for you because I'm not just going to tell you what you want to hear.

What matters most to me is what type of processed foods I eat that are unhealthy and damaging, rather than healing, my system and proven to promote our leading causes of disease. We all eat processed foods that contain alcohols, chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, gmo's, etc and those should be the exception and not the rule. It doesn't matter if someone thinks their diet is "cleaner and healthier". I let the diets speak for themselves. What kind of ailments does the person have? What diseases? What deficiencies? Is it Sustainable? Is the person always sick and tired? I mean, the questions can go on and on and on and on but no one will divulge the truth about their health problems so arguments over these things are pointless when you don't have all the facts. I do find out from my real friends and family what they are doing and going through from the grapevine and it's normally not good news about the side effects of their diets and ongoing health problems....

Challenges are a great way to motivate others and get in shape so my only advice to you is to not take it personal and use whatever diets you are doing to experiment on yourself, evaluate and track your progress and more importantly, go get a complete blood test before and after to make sure you are getting adequate nutrients and lowering cholesterol and are not promoting diseases. Losing weight does not determine how healthy you are on the inside...

I just challenged my brother to a year long contest because he's trying another diet and I'm 99% certain he is not going to be able to sustain another calorie restrictive diet that includes all the food and alcohol he refuses to give up long term and is always going with that other catch phrase "Everything in Moderation".

"Everything in Moderation" is another prime example of most people just teeter tottering back and forth and never really changing their bad eating habits. It's "mostly" just an "advertisement" for consumers to support the unhealthy food industry. They want nothing more than for all of us to subscribe and convince ourselves and others how it's ok to just moderate our health problems so we can live it up!

Instead of Moderation, I have adopted a different approach to evolve more and more towards healthy eating and stop going back as much every time I move forward! That for me is eating a majority of my diet from plant based whole foods that are actually proven to help fight disease and heal us. We really need to start analyzing our own health and listen to our bodies and rethink our beliefs, traditions and change those habits that are getting us no where. Keep moving in this direction ->->->-> Plant Based

Why would you suggest going plant based? It would make it harder for the OP to address their medical conditions and comes with significant foods restrictions. If anything, their current plan is going to address their medical health more than any other diet out there.

And the bold may be your definition of moderation, but it certainly isn't many of those on this forum and people I know.

Without numbers his assumption that his diet is across the board healthier than yours is just his opinion. And like you said BaBetter1, you know what is right for your body based on your particular situation, health and goals.

But due to my education, I like data :-)

https://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/
There are links in this article to all the actual studies.

Not all the studies have statistically significant findings, but the general consensus is that a low carb/high fat diet is more effective than high carb/low fat.

Quick summary:
"The majority of studies achieved statistically significant differences in weight loss (always in favor of low-carb). There are several other factors that are worth noting:
-The low-carb groups often lost 2-3 times as much weight as the low-fat groups. In a few instances there was no significant difference.
-In most cases, calories were restricted in the low-fat groups, while the low-carb groups could eat as much as they wanted.
-When both groups restricted calories, the low-carb dieters still lost more weight (7, 13, 19), although it was not always significant (8, 18, 20).
-There was only one study where the low-fat group lost more weight (23) although the difference was small (0.5 kg, 1.1 lb) and not statistically significant.
-In several of the studies, weight loss was greatest in the beginning. Then people start regaining the weight over time as they abandon the diet.
-When the researchers looked at abdominal fat (the unhealthy visceral fat) directly, low-carb diets had a clear advantage (5, 7, 19)."

BABetter1 wrote: »

CSARdiver wrote: »

He's a fool. This is like a debate on Ford vs. Chevy. He has chosen his brand and will follow whatever marketing woo to it's end.

OP - sounds like you are doing everything right. As for the muscle loss - yes you will lose muscle when in a caloric deficit. Protein will help in protection, but muscle tissue requires stimulus to grow. If you aren't using it your body minimizes maintenance - that goes with everything in a biological system. If you plan on incorporating this in the future I have to ask "why?" I did the same when I started MFP and regret it. This put me back months in my plan where I could have protected muscle loss by incorporating a progressive resistance program at the beginning.

LOL! Only one simple reason I am putting off weight training, weight loss contest. I am primarily doing this for my health. But, I am still in this weight loss contest (with a prize that I definitely want/need). I mean, when I win this thing, it will be like somebody paid me to lose weight! And, I kind of need the money. Think of it as a temporary part-time job. So the contest will be over in just a few more weeks. Then, I will evolve from diet and cardio only and get the weights going too. And to be honest, I don't care that much for weight training, and I'm maybe not in as much of a hurry to get that going as I probably should be. But, I do understand about "skinny fat", and I WILL start the weight training soon.

Resistance training won't impede your weight loss. In many ways this will promote weight management in the long term. As for the contest - keep doing what you're doing and what MFP guidelines promote. In the final days this becomes more an issue of water weight, so limit your salt intake in the last week and stay well hydrated. Boxers/wrestlers are masters of weight management to hit that optimum weight class. May want to check out their techniques.

rawroy wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

The term "Clean Eating" does not mean healthy and doesn't mean much else to me anymore when everyone uses it regardless of which diet they choose. I really don't have an answer for you because I'm not just going to tell you what you want to hear.

What matters most to me is what type of processed foods I eat that are unhealthy and damaging, rather than healing, my system and proven to promote our leading causes of disease. We all eat processed foods that contain alcohols, chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, gmo's, etc and those should be the exception and not the rule. It doesn't matter if someone thinks their diet is "cleaner and healthier". I let the diets speak for themselves. What kind of ailments does the person have? What diseases? What deficiencies? Is it Sustainable? Is the person always sick and tired? I mean, the questions can go on and on and on and on but no one will divulge the truth about their health problems so arguments over these things are pointless when you don't have all the facts. I do find out from my real friends and family what they are doing and going through from the grapevine and it's normally not good news about the side effects of their diets and ongoing health problems....

Challenges are a great way to motivate others and get in shape so my only advice to you is to not take it personal and use whatever diets you are doing to experiment on yourself, evaluate and track your progress and more importantly, go get a complete blood test before and after to make sure you are getting adequate nutrients and lowering cholesterol and are not promoting diseases. Losing weight does not determine how healthy you are on the inside...

I just challenged my brother to a year long contest because he's trying another diet and I'm 99% certain he is not going to be able to sustain another calorie restrictive diet that includes all the food and alcohol he refuses to give up long term and is always going with that other catch phrase "Everything in Moderation".

"Everything in Moderation" is another prime example of most people just teeter tottering back and forth and never really changing their bad eating habits. It's "mostly" just an "advertisement" for consumers to support the unhealthy food industry. They want nothing more than for all of us to subscribe and convince ourselves and others how it's ok to just moderate our health problems so we can live it up!

Instead of Moderation, I have adopted a different approach to evolve more and more towards healthy eating and stop going back as much every time I move forward! That for me is eating a majority of my diet from plant based whole foods that are actually proven to help fight disease and heal us. We really need to start analyzing our own health and listen to our bodies and rethink our beliefs, traditions and change those habits that are getting us no where. Keep moving in this direction ->->->-> Plant Based

Why would you suggest going plant based? It would make it harder for the OP to address their medical conditions and comes with significant foods restrictions. If anything, their current plan is going to address their medical health more than any other diet out there.

And the bold may be your definition of moderation, but it certainly isn't many of those on this forum and people I know.

I'm sure whoever is asking will listen to their OP first and hopefully ask more questions. I'm not the only one suggesting different food options here am I? So, I suggested moving more towards plant based. Do you know there are literally thousands of plant based food choices out there? I didn't say go eat a potato. I'm sure if anyone has health issues they will select an apple instead. I am always hearing more Doctors finally recommending plant based solutions but if you have medical concerns, please ask the Dr. about what plant based foods you can eat.

As far as food restrictions go, most diets and healthier options are more limited then the unhealthy options. Plant Based is not at all isolated from choosing different foods. People give up carbs and that is restrictive too. I'm not turned off by the word "restrictive" and no one should be if they really need or want to change their habits and start learning how to avoid certain foods that are making them sick. Every grocery store I know has a huge produce department and that is where you'll find most of the unprocessed whole foods. Just look at that department and it screams "Healthy"! Going out to eat is restrictive, but that's because we are inundated with unhealthy menu options to choose from. I just had to learn what to order at each restaurant and it's all good. If we are able to learn how to eat every diet that pops up, count points and calories, track macros and micros, then I don't see why anyone couldn't learn more about nutrition, ingredients, and menus before going out to eat. It's just a learning curve...

Everyone has a different perspective for the term "Everything in Moderation" and it's ok to have different opinions about that. Like any phrase, people will certainly interpret it different ways but I just wanted to shed some light on those that always get stuck because I hear this term so much and so many of my friends and family end up right back where they started by the end of the year "unchanged". I like the concept of Progression instead of Moderation and Evolving instead of Revolving. Yes, we take steps back and we enjoy life's guilty pleasures, but we have to keep heading in the healthiest direction possible to avoid diseases and that means changing those bad habits and addictions too. In my opinion, even though there is evidence that Moderation does not work for Alcohol Addictions, I think moderation does does not work for food addictions either...

So yes, I am fairly familiar with plant based. Do you realize that IR significantly is improved with LCHF or ketogenic (btw, the OP seems to be thriving with that style of dieting).. something that can be rather difficult to implement while on plant based. It largely has to be based on nuts. And considering there is nothing inherently unhealthy about meats and dairy, I am not sure why someone would want to go plant based outside of ethical reasons. Going plant based alone doesn't mean you will become healthier, as demonstrated by several friends I knew who were hospitalized with deficiencies because they didn't research it sufficiently prior to starting it. And a person can be very healthy regardless of the diet they follow. For me, I would not be able to sustain a restrictive diet such as plant based; heck, I struggle enough on my low carb days. For me, I largely have two big issues that would prevent me from being plant based; I enjoy meat too much and I can't stand beans and many other plant based proteins. So moderation is what works for me. Moderation for me tries to limit treats to 10 - 15% of my total calories. I concentrate on a variety of whole foods (meats, dairy, fruits, veggies, oats/whole grains, and fish) and high protein (especially during cuts).

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

The term "Clean Eating" does not mean healthy and doesn't mean much else to me anymore when everyone uses it regardless of which diet they choose. I really don't have an answer for you because I'm not just going to tell you what you want to hear.

What matters most to me is what type of processed foods I eat that are unhealthy and damaging, rather than healing, my system and proven to promote our leading causes of disease. We all eat processed foods that contain alcohols, chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, gmo's, etc and those should be the exception and not the rule. It doesn't matter if someone thinks their diet is "cleaner and healthier". I let the diets speak for themselves. What kind of ailments does the person have? What diseases? What deficiencies? Is it Sustainable? Is the person always sick and tired? I mean, the questions can go on and on and on and on but no one will divulge the truth about their health problems so arguments over these things are pointless when you don't have all the facts. I do find out from my real friends and family what they are doing and going through from the grapevine and it's normally not good news about the side effects of their diets and ongoing health problems....

Challenges are a great way to motivate others and get in shape so my only advice to you is to not take it personal and use whatever diets you are doing to experiment on yourself, evaluate and track your progress and more importantly, go get a complete blood test before and after to make sure you are getting adequate nutrients and lowering cholesterol and are not promoting diseases. Losing weight does not determine how healthy you are on the inside...

I just challenged my brother to a year long contest because he's trying another diet and I'm 99% certain he is not going to be able to sustain another calorie restrictive diet that includes all the food and alcohol he refuses to give up long term and is always going with that other catch phrase "Everything in Moderation".

"Everything in Moderation" is another prime example of most people just teeter tottering back and forth and never really changing their bad eating habits. It's "mostly" just an "advertisement" for consumers to support the unhealthy food industry. They want nothing more than for all of us to subscribe and convince ourselves and others how it's ok to just moderate our health problems so we can live it up!

Instead of Moderation, I have adopted a different approach to evolve more and more towards healthy eating and stop going back as much every time I move forward! That for me is eating a majority of my diet from plant based whole foods that are actually proven to help fight disease and heal us. We really need to start analyzing our own health and listen to our bodies and rethink our beliefs, traditions and change those habits that are getting us no where. Keep moving in this direction ->->->-> Plant Based

Why would you suggest going plant based? It would make it harder for the OP to address their medical conditions and comes with significant foods restrictions. If anything, their current plan is going to address their medical health more than any other diet out there.

And the bold may be your definition of moderation, but it certainly isn't many of those on this forum and people I know.

I'm sure whoever is asking will listen to their OP first and hopefully ask more questions. I'm not the only one suggesting different food options here am I? So, I suggested moving more towards plant based. Do you know there are literally thousands of plant based food choices out there? I didn't say go eat a potato. I'm sure if anyone has health issues they will select an apple instead. I am always hearing more Doctors finally recommending plant based solutions but if you have medical concerns, please ask the Dr. about what plant based foods you can eat.

As far as food restrictions go, most diets and healthier options are more limited then the unhealthy options. Plant Based is not at all isolated from choosing different foods. People give up carbs and that is restrictive too. I'm not turned off by the word "restrictive" and no one should be if they really need or want to change their habits and start learning how to avoid certain foods that are making them sick. Every grocery store I know has a huge produce department and that is where you'll find most of the unprocessed whole foods. Just look at that department and it screams "Healthy"! Going out to eat is restrictive, but that's because we are inundated with unhealthy menu options to choose from. I just had to learn what to order at each restaurant and it's all good. If we are able to learn how to eat every diet that pops up, count points and calories, track macros and micros, then I don't see why anyone couldn't learn more about nutrition, ingredients, and menus before going out to eat. It's just a learning curve...

Everyone has a different perspective for the term "Everything in Moderation" and it's ok to have different opinions about that. Like any phrase, people will certainly interpret it different ways but I just wanted to shed some light on those that always get stuck because I hear this term so much and so many of my friends and family end up right back where they started by the end of the year "unchanged". I like the concept of Progression instead of Moderation and Evolving instead of Revolving. Yes, we take steps back and we enjoy life's guilty pleasures, but we have to keep heading in the healthiest direction possible to avoid diseases and that means changing those bad habits and addictions too. In my opinion, even though there is evidence that Moderation does not work for Alcohol Addictions, I think moderation does does not work for food addictions either...

So yes, I am fairly familiar with plant based. Do you realize that IR significantly is improved with LCHF or ketogenic (btw, the OP seems to be thriving with that style of dieting).. something that can be rather difficult to implement while on plant based. It largely has to be based on nuts. And considering there is nothing inherently unhealthy about meats and dairy, I am not sure why someone would want to go plant based outside of ethical reasons. Going plant based alone doesn't mean you will become healthier, as demonstrated by several friends I knew who were hospitalized with deficiencies because they didn't research it sufficiently prior to starting it. And a person can be very healthy regardless of the diet they follow. For me, I would not be able to sustain a restrictive diet such as plant based; heck, I struggle enough on my low carb days. For me, I largely have two big issues that would prevent me from being plant based; I enjoy meat too much and I can't stand beans and many other plant based proteins. So moderation is what works for me. Moderation for me tries to limit treats to 10 - 15% of my total calories. I concentrate on a variety of whole foods (meats, dairy, fruits, veggies, oats/whole grains, and fish) and high protein (especially during cuts).

I disagree that there is nothing unhealthy about meat and dairy. Most of our diet related health issues are based on a diet of primarily processed meats and dairy products. Just search google and look for all of the videos, case studies and reviews taken directly from the pubmed site. Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. McGreger, Dr. Barnard, Dr. McDougal all agree based on experience, evidence and science and Dr. Esselstyn has reversed heart disease with a low fat plant based diet. The blocked Artery literally grew another branch and reconnected itself! It was amazing!!!

I don't know one person personally that has been hospitalized because of vegan or low fat plant based but I do know many that are always sick and suffering who still refuse to change their diet. I agree that vitamin deficiencies are a risk factor but shouldn't be a fear factor because most people going plant based do the research beforehand and make sure to eat a variety of whole foods. We all get most of our nutrients from fortified foods anyway and deficiencies can happen to anyone who drastically reduces their consumption of fortified foods. Heck, even our pets have fortified B12 and Minerals in their food for the same reason.

It sounds like you are comfortable and have your diet system down but I will always suggest lowering the intake of animal based products based on what plant based foods can do for us. It's just a matter of how much we choose. I drink and enjoy life and about 75% of my intake is whole foods plant based and 25% processed.

rawroy wrote: »

I disagree that there is nothing unhealthy about meat and dairy. Most of our diet related health issues are based on a diet of primarily processed meats and dairy products. Just search google and look for all of the videos, case studies and reviews taken directly from the pubmed site. Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. McGreger, Dr. Barnard, Dr. McDougal all agree based on experience, evidence and science and Dr. Esselstyn has reversed heart disease with a low fat plant based diet. The blocked Artery literally grew another branch and reconnected itself! It was amazing!!!

I don't know one person personally that has been hospitalized because of vegan or low fat plant based but I do know many that are always sick and suffering who still refuse to change their diet. I agree that vitamin deficiencies are a risk factor but shouldn't be a fear factor because most people going plant based do the research beforehand and make sure to eat a variety of whole foods. We all get most of our nutrients from fortified foods anyway and deficiencies can happen to anyone who drastically reduces their consumption of fortified foods. Heck, even our pets have fortified B12 and Minerals in their food for the same reason.

It sounds like you are comfortable and have your diet system down but I will always suggest lowering the intake of animal based products based on what plant based foods can do for us. It's just a matter of how much we choose. I drink and enjoy life and about 75% of my intake is whole foods plant based and 25% processed.

You do realize how overly biased all of those sources are right? Have you looked at the large amount of science that has recently come out about LCHF and it's ability to improve metabolic markers, especially with increases in MUFA and PUFA?

Don't get me wrong, i highly recognize the benefits of fruits and vegetables. They are very high in vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants which can contribute to a healthy lifestyle. Heck, one of the largest reasons that plant based is identified as so health is because those same people tend to be health conscious, work out and often maintain a good weight. But I can assure you, I know a lot of unhealthy plant based people too.

If you reduce processed foods and incorporate nutrient dense foods, along with reducing obesity and increasing activity, you will be health regardless if you eat meat or not. Personally, I think it's short sighted to get all of your information from researchers who only promote one diet because it will ignore the plethora of benefits from many other diets. So I take the aspects from all diets that are healthy into one moderated diet.... fruits, veggies, fish, lean meats, nuts, and dairy. I lift 4 days a week, and do cardio/flexibility training 2 hours a week.

With all of that said, there are many metabolic and autoimmune disease that would be worsened by eating a diet high in carbohydrates and even high in fiber. There are large correlations between improve health/metabolic markers with diseases like IR, PCOS and Diabetes. Other diseases like IBS/IBD can worsen symptoms with highly fibrous diets. My wife's has a ton of medical issues and her condition has been improved with decreasing carbs and eating a crap ton of salt (10,000mg/day). This is why I incorporate avocado, fish (especially dark fishes), meats and full fat day. My wife can't currently eat anything with seeds/nuts (she also has diverticulitis) and has to limit fiber. Plant based would worsen her condition.

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

I disagree that there is nothing unhealthy about meat and dairy. Most of our diet related health issues are based on a diet of primarily processed meats and dairy products. Just search google and look for all of the videos, case studies and reviews taken directly from the pubmed site. Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. McGreger, Dr. Barnard, Dr. McDougal all agree based on experience, evidence and science and Dr. Esselstyn has reversed heart disease with a low fat plant based diet. The blocked Artery literally grew another branch and reconnected itself! It was amazing!!!

I don't know one person personally that has been hospitalized because of vegan or low fat plant based but I do know many that are always sick and suffering who still refuse to change their diet. I agree that vitamin deficiencies are a risk factor but shouldn't be a fear factor because most people going plant based do the research beforehand and make sure to eat a variety of whole foods. We all get most of our nutrients from fortified foods anyway and deficiencies can happen to anyone who drastically reduces their consumption of fortified foods. Heck, even our pets have fortified B12 and Minerals in their food for the same reason.

It sounds like you are comfortable and have your diet system down but I will always suggest lowering the intake of animal based products based on what plant based foods can do for us. It's just a matter of how much we choose. I drink and enjoy life and about 75% of my intake is whole foods plant based and 25% processed.

You do realize how overly biased all of those sources are right? Have you looked at the large amount of science that has recently come out about LCHF and it's ability to improve metabolic markers, especially with increases in MUFA and PUFA?

Don't get me wrong, i highly recognize the benefits of fruits and vegetables. They are very high in vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants which can contribute to a healthy lifestyle. Heck, one of the largest reasons that plant based is identified as so health is because those same people tend to be health conscious, work out and often maintain a good weight. But I can assure you, I know a lot of unhealthy plant based people too.

If you reduce processed foods and incorporate nutrient dense foods, along with reducing obesity and increasing activity, you will be health regardless if you eat meat or not. Personally, I think it's short sighted to get all of your information from researchers who only promote one diet because it will ignore the plethora of benefits from many other diets. So I take the aspects from all diets that are healthy into one moderated diet.... fruits, veggies, fish, lean meats, nuts, and dairy. I lift 4 days a week, and do cardio/flexibility training 2 hours a week.

With all of that said, there are many metabolic and autoimmune disease that would be worsened by eating a diet high in carbohydrates and even high in fiber. There are large correlations between improve health/metabolic markers with diseases like IR, PCOS and Diabetes. Other diseases like IBS/IBD can worsen symptoms with highly fibrous diets. My wife's has a ton of medical issues and her condition has been improved with decreasing carbs and eating a crap ton of salt (10,000mg/day). This is why I incorporate avocado, fish (especially dark fishes), meats and full fat day. My wife can't currently eat anything with seeds/nuts (she also has diverticulitis) and has to limit fiber. Plant based would worsen her condition.

My information is not coming from just researchers who have always promoted one diet. They are Doctors, and in fact, Healthy Doctors who have lived their entire lives one way and changed based on the research, science and results. Check out Dr. McGregor's reviews and research because he literally studies everything taken from the National Library of Medicine and National Institutes of Health which is not one sided. You'll find clinical trials, peer reviews, and case studies published from all sources there.

I understand that we can still live healthy and happy lives eating "some" meat and dairy and even processed foods but the "majority" of the pop should realize that our intake of toxic chemicals, sat. fats, cholesterol, and carcinogens mostly found in meat and dairy and processed foods are contributing to our growing health problems and we can combat that by increasing our consumption of a variety of plant based whole foods filled with phytonutrients is so much better for us. Unfortunately, not everyone can incorporate many plant based foods based on special circumstances but did you know there are over 150,000 editable plants we have yet to incorporate in our diets. I wonder what kind of healing properties they have and why we keep pushing more and more meat and dairy products...

I don't have any medical needs but I try to limit my salt instake to 1,500mg /day just because that's the RDA for someone with heart disease. Doesn't mean I don't go over sometimes but it's good practice. Instead of reaching for that salt shaker, I shake pepper and tumeric on everthing Same habit with different ingredients! I even keep some spices in my car so when I go out to eat, I add it to my meals.

rawroy wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

I disagree that there is nothing unhealthy about meat and dairy. Most of our diet related health issues are based on a diet of primarily processed meats and dairy products. Just search google and look for all of the videos, case studies and reviews taken directly from the pubmed site. Dr. Esselstyn, Dr. McGreger, Dr. Barnard, Dr. McDougal all agree based on experience, evidence and science and Dr. Esselstyn has reversed heart disease with a low fat plant based diet. The blocked Artery literally grew another branch and reconnected itself! It was amazing!!!

I don't know one person personally that has been hospitalized because of vegan or low fat plant based but I do know many that are always sick and suffering who still refuse to change their diet. I agree that vitamin deficiencies are a risk factor but shouldn't be a fear factor because most people going plant based do the research beforehand and make sure to eat a variety of whole foods. We all get most of our nutrients from fortified foods anyway and deficiencies can happen to anyone who drastically reduces their consumption of fortified foods. Heck, even our pets have fortified B12 and Minerals in their food for the same reason.

It sounds like you are comfortable and have your diet system down but I will always suggest lowering the intake of animal based products based on what plant based foods can do for us. It's just a matter of how much we choose. I drink and enjoy life and about 75% of my intake is whole foods plant based and 25% processed.

You do realize how overly biased all of those sources are right? Have you looked at the large amount of science that has recently come out about LCHF and it's ability to improve metabolic markers, especially with increases in MUFA and PUFA?

Don't get me wrong, i highly recognize the benefits of fruits and vegetables. They are very high in vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants which can contribute to a healthy lifestyle. Heck, one of the largest reasons that plant based is identified as so health is because those same people tend to be health conscious, work out and often maintain a good weight. But I can assure you, I know a lot of unhealthy plant based people too.

If you reduce processed foods and incorporate nutrient dense foods, along with reducing obesity and increasing activity, you will be health regardless if you eat meat or not. Personally, I think it's short sighted to get all of your information from researchers who only promote one diet because it will ignore the plethora of benefits from many other diets. So I take the aspects from all diets that are healthy into one moderated diet.... fruits, veggies, fish, lean meats, nuts, and dairy. I lift 4 days a week, and do cardio/flexibility training 2 hours a week.

With all of that said, there are many metabolic and autoimmune disease that would be worsened by eating a diet high in carbohydrates and even high in fiber. There are large correlations between improve health/metabolic markers with diseases like IR, PCOS and Diabetes. Other diseases like IBS/IBD can worsen symptoms with highly fibrous diets. My wife's has a ton of medical issues and her condition has been improved with decreasing carbs and eating a crap ton of salt (10,000mg/day). This is why I incorporate avocado, fish (especially dark fishes), meats and full fat day. My wife can't currently eat anything with seeds/nuts (she also has diverticulitis) and has to limit fiber. Plant based would worsen her condition.

My information is not coming from just researchers who have always promoted one diet. They are Doctors, and in fact, Healthy Doctors who have lived their entire lives one way and changed based on the research, science and results. Check out Dr. McGregor's reviews and research because he literally studies everything taken from the National Library of Medicine and National Institutes of Health which is not one sided. You'll find clinical trials, peer reviews, and case studies published from all sources there.

I understand that we can still live healthy and happy lives eating "some" meat and dairy and even processed foods but the "majority" of the pop should realize that our intake of toxic chemicals, sat. fats, cholesterol, and carcinogens mostly found in meat and dairy and processed foods are contributing to our growing health problems and we can combat that by increasing our consumption of a variety of plant based whole foods filled with phytonutrients is so much better for us. Unfortunately, not everyone can incorporate many plant based foods based on special circumstances but did you know there are over 150,000 editable plants we have yet to incorporate in our diets. I wonder what kind of healing properties they have and why we keep pushing more and more meat and dairy products...

I don't have any medical needs but I try to limit my salt instake to 1,500mg /day just because that's the RDA for someone with heart disease. Doesn't mean I don't go over sometimes but it's good practice. Instead of reaching for that salt shaker, I shake pepper and tumeric on everthing Same habit with different ingredients! I even keep some spices in my car so when I go out to eat, I add it to my meals.

What toxic chemicals are you even referencing to? There have been a lot of studies recently that SFA do not contribute to heart disease and do not adversely effect metabolic markers. Cholesterol in foods do not have a linkage to serum cholesterol. Even the US Government recognizes that. It seems like a lot of the data you are referencing is outdated.

Many processed meats and dairy products have growth hormones, antibiotics, bacteria, additives and even the sat fats, trans fats are toxic to our system.

Sat Fats cause Lipotoxicity and Inflammation and develops insulin resistance.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/lipotoxicity-how-saturated-fat-raises-blood-sugar/

"Strong evidence from mostly prospective cohort studies but also randomized controlled trials has shown that eating patterns that include lower intake of dietary cholesterol are associated with reduced risk of CVD, and moderate evidence indicates that these eating patterns are associated with reduced risk of obesity. "
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter-1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/

"Strong and consistent evidence shows that replacing saturated fats with unsaturated fats, especially polyunsaturated fats, is associated with reduced blood levels of total cholesterol and of low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol (LDL-cholesterol). Additionally, strong and consistent evidence shows that replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats is associated with a reduced risk of CVD events (heart attacks) and CVD-related deaths."
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter-1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/

"A number of studies have observed an association between increased intake of trans fats and increased risk of CVD. This increased risk is due, in part, to its LDL-cholesterol-raising effect."
https://health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015/guidelines/chapter-1/a-closer-look-inside-healthy-eating-patterns/

"Blood cholesterol levels are clearly increased by eating dietary cholesterol. In other words, putting cholesterol in our mouth means putting cholesterol in our blood, and it may also potentiate the harmful effects of saturated fats, meaning when we eat sausage and eggs, the eggs may make the effects of the sausage even worse. If you eat the saturated fat and cholesterol found in two sausage and egg McMuffins every day for two weeks, your cholesterol would shoot up nearly 30 points. If you eat about the same amount of saturated fat without the cholesterol, some kind of cholesterol-free sausage McMuffins without the egg, what would happen? Now the egg would have saturated fat too; so, to even it out, we have to add three strips of bacon to the comparison. Same saturated fat but two-eggs-worth less cholesterol would bump us up only around five points. So, saturated fat may increase fasting cholesterol levels more than dietary cholesterol, but especially in the presence of dietary cholesterol."
http://nutritionfacts.org/2016/03/22/the-effects-of-dietary-cholesterol-on-blood-cholesterol/

“Cholesterol in eggs, poultry, cheese, and meat contributes to heart attacks and other health risks,” said Neal D. Barnard, MD, President of the Physicians Committee. “We praise the Government for resisting industry pressure to weaken the warnings. It has actually strengthened them.”
http://www.pcrm.org/USDA January 7th, 2016

Sorry I haven't responded as quickly as I would like, but let me first say.. I am not talking processed meats. That is like me using oreo's as an argument against vegan... I am talking natural foods (like angus beef, dairy, etc...); so the basis would be a whole food type diet.

I also recognize that SFA is a somewhat controversial topic and depending on your research specialty, will depend on your ultimate conclusion will be. For most, weight loss and increasing activity levels will improve metabolic markers, for others, it will depending.

Additionally, recognizing the benefits of MUFA and PUFA is not the same of the effects of SFA. PUFA are highly correlated with improved metabolic markers (even shown when replacing SFA with PUFA); this is one of the reasons why the Mediterranean diet is so highly regarded.

"Evaluation of the association of saturated fat with lipid profiles and CVD risk requires consideration of the replacement nutrients. Studies in animals and humans support the concept that replacement of saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats results in improved lipid profiles, specifically, decreased TC and LDL cholesterol with minimal decreases in HDL cholesterol, as well as with decreased CVD risk. Although replacement of saturated fats with monounsaturated fats results in improved lipid profiles, the association of this substitution with CVD risk is less clear. Notably, most observational studies did not distinguish between plant and animal sources of monounsaturated fat. Finally, replacement of saturated fat with carbohydrates, particularly refined carbohydrates and added sugars as has occurred over the past few decades, has been associated with dyslipidemia and either no improvement in CVD risk or even increased CVD risk. Given the current epidemics of obesity and insulin resistance, reductions in the consumption of refined carbohydrates and added sugars, in addition to weight control and obesity prevention, should be the prioritized public health dietary goals."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2943062/

If you look at some of the works from Dr. Jeff Volek (notably one of the leading researchers in LCHF), his studies would suggest kind of the opposite of what your plant based researchers are suggesting. The bigger argument or really the ultimate question is, is at what level do SFA does it take away from other important nutrients? This is similar to, how many carbs should you eat, prior to taking away from other nutrients. Even I don't suggest blinding eating tons of SFA, but it's not because SFA are bad, it's because it would take away from the benefits of PUFA/MUFA.

"“There is widespread misunderstanding about saturated fat. In population studies, there’s clearly no association of dietary saturated fat and heart disease, yet dietary guidelines continue to advocate restriction of saturated fat. That’s not scientific and not smart,” Volek said. “But studies measuring saturated fat in the blood and risk for heart disease show there is an association. Having a lot of saturated fat in your body is not a good thing."

https://news.osu.edu/news/2014/11/21/study-doubling-saturated-fat-in-the-diet-does-not-increase-saturated-fat-in-blood/


The reason why there is a cholesterol limit even though it was recommended to be removed, was more of the tie to SFA.

"https://www.choosemyplate.gov/2015-2020-dietary-guidelines-answers-your-questions

While adequate evidence is not available for a quantitative limit for dietary cholesterol in the 2015-2020 Dietary Guidelines, cholesterol is still important to consider when building a healthy eating style. In fact, the Dietary Guidelines states that people should eat as little dietary cholesterol as possible.

In general, foods that are higher in dietary cholesterol, such as fatty meats and high-fat dairy products, are also higher in saturated fats (which should be limited to 10% of total calories per day). The primary healthy eating style described in the Dietary Guidelines is limited in saturated fats, and thus, dietary cholesterol (about 100-300 mg across the various calorie levels)."



In the end, concentrating on whole foods, getting exercise and controlling weight, will have greater impact on metabolic markers more than anything else. Either way, the OP has IR and moving towards away from a diet that is improving her condition would be irresponsible.

leanjogreen18 wrote: »

rawroy wrote: »

The term "Clean Eating" does not mean healthy and doesn't mean much else to me anymore when everyone uses it regardless of which diet they choose. I really don't have an answer for you because I'm not just going to tell you what you want to hear.

What matters most to me is what type of processed foods I eat that are unhealthy and damaging, rather than healing, my system and proven to promote our leading causes of disease. We all eat processed foods that contain alcohols, chemicals, hormones, antibiotics, gmo's, etc and those should be the exception and not the rule. It doesn't matter if someone thinks their diet is "cleaner and healthier". I let the diets speak for themselves. What kind of ailments does the person have? What diseases? What deficiencies? Is it Sustainable? Is the person always sick and tired? I mean, the questions can go on and on and on and on but no one will divulge the truth about their health problems so arguments over these things are pointless when you don't have all the facts. I do find out from my real friends and family what they are doing and going through from the grapevine and it's normally not good news about the side effects of their diets and ongoing health problems....

Challenges are a great way to motivate others and get in shape so my only advice to you is to not take it personal and use whatever diets you are doing to experiment on yourself, evaluate and track your progress and more importantly, go get a complete blood test before and after to make sure you are getting adequate nutrients and lowering cholesterol and are not promoting diseases. Losing weight does not determine how healthy you are on the inside...

I just challenged my brother to a year long contest because he's trying another diet and I'm 99% certain he is not going to be able to sustain another calorie restrictive diet that includes all the food and alcohol he refuses to give up long term and is always going with that other catch phrase "Everything in Moderation".

"Everything in Moderation" is another prime example of most people just teeter tottering back and forth and never really changing their bad eating habits. It's "mostly" just an "advertisement" for consumers to support the unhealthy food industry. They want nothing more than for all of us to subscribe and convince ourselves and others how it's ok to just moderate our health problems so we can live it up!

Instead of Moderation, I have adopted a different approach to evolve more and more towards healthy eating and stop going back as much every time I move forward! That for me is eating a majority of my diet from plant based whole foods that are actually proven to help fight disease and heal us. We really need to start analyzing our own health and listen to our bodies and rethink our beliefs, traditions and change those habits that are getting us no where. Keep moving in this direction ->->->-> Plant Based

Restrictive dieting led me to overeat on said restrictive foods. When off Atkins I overate potatos, when off no white I overate potatos when off juice fasting I overate on everything.

Moderation has taken the power away from food and back in my control. I eat potatos now maybe once a week if that.

people don't only overeat on "junk" unless you call a potato junk.

Can't really overeat on potatoes if you don't throw cheese, bacon bits, butter and sour cream on them. I do not restrict healthier food and will chow down on as many potatoes as I want until I'm completely stuff for dinner and top them with lots of seasoning and dressings that are low fat plant based. Everyone overeats but it's not the potato that is the culprit here. What is really going on is that people are putting a considerable amount of meat and dairy products on them. If you are Moderating and Restricting the healthiest food on your plate in order to eat more of the unhealthy part, then yes, you have to incorporate portion control and count calories and blame yourself for not having willpower for cheating.

Now keep in mind, I have 40 years of doing what everyone supports, but for me, it was always a short term diet solution and not sustainable. After going plant based, I'd rather eat more of an abundance of healthier food and there are literally thousands of options available so it's odd that people concentrate on saying it's restrictive when it comes to food selection but always ignore the fact that most people have weight and health issues from overeating on higher fat and processed foods and meat and dairy products. Keep in mind, I do have 40 years experience eating meat and dairy and trying every diet out there before switching and I only see going plant based for anyone that wants to is the learning curve, but it's good to know where our food comes from, read labels, learn recipes and change our habits but just like everything we do, it becomes a habit, but a good one and eliminating all the junk causes something miraculous to happen with our brain. We actually stop craving all of the junk and feel what it's like to change and enhance our taste buds.