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The Urban Food Desert Myth
Replies
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ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.14 -
RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv4 -
I have lived in 15 places in 5 countries in Europe in the last 7 years. I can confirm there are 'food deserts' now and they are increasing. 20 years ago in europe these deserts did not exist. Villages and urban areas were full of grocery stores within a few blocks of each other with fresh veg, fruit, meat and fish, dairy in 1994.
Since around that time large chain stores have ruined the ability to get fresh foods within walking distance. The small grocer and shop owners have had to leave, sometimes families had had those businesses for hundreds of years! Older people suffer the most, bring unable to walk a block or two for daily bread and groceries. There used to be the possibility to live without a car, as public transportation was sufficient, along with being able to walk to many small but very well stocked stores for every possible need including clothing, household supplies and hardwear. That way of life has been obliterated from every one of the countries I have lived. In just 20 years, thanks to the european union, life in 'food deserts' has become a grim reality, sometimes requiring a drive of as much as 80 kilometers ( a long way in these countries where there are villages dotting nearly every countryside area) and europe is now full of cheap plasticware, fast food restaurants and quick food places, selling pizza, sandwiches etc. Even Venice, where I stayed for several months, has become full of plastic trinkets and bad food, living there requires walking long distances for ordinary everyday goods. Venice used to be a quiet place everything within walking distance.
As parking lots and gigantic super stores are built all over europe, its taking pleasant scenery down along with the new construction. Strangely, massive empty apartments, many unfinished, are making villages look strangely ghosty, so many blocks of stone houses were removed to make that possible. A small rant, but its the truth. What is the hardest to cope with is the amount of destitute poverty that is taking place. People forced to move to the large cities and scrap out a life renting a single room, returning to their family only for the weekends, a life hardly worth living.
So yes, I thin this is affecting people's health and bmi. I notice that the europeans aren't looking as healthy and smooth skinned as they used to. I'm seeing a lot more overweight.
I haven't got science or statistics, but believe me, this is happening and there is no turning back.
I lived in the U.S. for a few hears on the 2000's where we looked for a home. We couldn't find a small town with adequate groceries and household supplies nearby.
Its my belief that walking for groceries, along with the easy availability of fresh food is a healthy lifestyle and this is not easy to find any more.5 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
Growing up in the "deepest inner city" as a pasty white kid that was my experience as well.
Certainly, there's a bit of art to walking such that you present as neither victim nor competition, but it can certainly be done.3 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »One thing I do know: if you don't drive, bulk store shopping isn't so simple. Carrying your shopping on transit is difficult, if not impossible. All those large boxes and cans are pretty heavy and take up space. Bundle buggies take up space and block aisles, to say nothing of trying to manoever them past the baby strollers.
People with cars often have the time to go to different grocery stores to get the discounted food. For someone without a car, that can be a couple of hours they might not have to go traipsing about the city. If you're working more than one job, it's that much harder and it's understandable that people in that situation would head for the one supermarket and grab what they can in sizes they can carry, even if that means paying more for fewer servings. And if some items cost more there than they do elsewhere, it adds up.
I'm a stress eater and a boredom eater, trying to change. I'm also an introvert who gravitates to the food tables at parties. I suspect that there are people of all incomes in a similar boat. No, it's not okay to overeat, but it's understandable that people do, rich, poor, or middle-class.
You can dismiss what I've written in this post as more excuses, I suppose, but I'm curious about solutions.
It depends on where you're living. If you're living in a large city - most people don't have cars. You learn to adapt. If you need to buy bulk - then you find a friend with a car or you use a taxi. If that's not in your budget - buying bulk likely isn't in your budget either, since that cost is quite high initially, although it's cheaper over time. I "graze" shop. I buy what I can carry. I usually go a few times a week until my list is complete. I cycle things so I don't need everything all at once. And I make sure I go somewhere on my way home. Sometimes it means I walk a little farther to get what I need/save money. But I make the adjustments.
If that truly is the reason for not being able to afford healthier options - there are ways around it. That's my solution.3 -
RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
Thank you for providing a different point of view, I never considered it. It's incredibly sad that gangs need to be accounted for when trying to feed your family. Ugh. And that it is a very real and very serious issue.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »spinnerdell wrote: »
Are you talking about them having gardens, or at least knowing people who have gardens? (Same could apply to fishing, hunting, I suppose.)Gallowmere1984 wrote: »One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
I live on the outskirts of a small rural town in Nevada with the nearest supermarket 3 miles away. Some of my neighbors who don't have cars rely on a gas station convenience store for their groceries, a limited and expensive resource.
A vegetable garden, fruit trees, and backyard chickens supplement my diet very nicely, a luxury unavailable to most urban food-desert-dwellers, I'm guessing.
This, but usually it's not that they can't do it, in a realistic sense. It's that often, draconian city zoning codes levy fines for such things. Kinda defeats the purpose of growing your own food when you end up getting hit for 10x the value of the food potential in fines. Can't have people dodging your shady local sales taxes, ya' know?
Yeah, I know. When I was poor we got a milking goat and chickens to exist in the USA. The neighbor was beating his wife and after telling him to stop a few times, we called the police. The next week the animal control girl knocked on our door and after 7 years of having our milking goat and a few chickens she told us we were reported by an anonymous neighbor to have livestock in city limits. We were taken to court by the city, paid fines and had to find new homes for all our animals. We left the US of A a few months later.
Its like poor people can't even do the right kind of work to look after themselves in 'merica without it being seen as screwing up somehow. Miss my goat and all that cheese and yogurt.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.
The thing is Ritz, is that a bag of chips is just so much lighter to carry than a pound of potatoes when you have to take three or four public transits and wait in between and walk several blocks and up stairs to your shabby little apartment to and from the food source.
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
It's good for you that you didn't care and kept to yourself. That means only gang members and drug dealers get shot?
There are so many bystanders shot yearly by stray bullets or simply because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Sure- a percentage of them were involved in drug or gang activity but that definitely doesn't account for all of those affected by the violence.
While I'm not discrediting your experiences, I don't think that just because you lived in a poor area and survived means that it must be okay for everyone else.
Chicago's violence is skyrocketing. The thing to remember is that chicago is big. Percentagewise, we have a ridiculously high murder and violent crime rate for the population of the city. Then you actually break it down to where these crimes happen, they tend to be concentrated in the areas with the most poverty. Then you look at the percentages in those areas- it's extremely dangerous to even live there.
So yes- my experiences with these families and being able to spend time with them does show that there are indeed "food deserts" because of other factors than proximity to a supermarket.10 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »One thing I do know: if you don't drive, bulk store shopping isn't so simple. Carrying your shopping on transit is difficult, if not impossible. All those large boxes and cans are pretty heavy and take up space. Bundle buggies take up space and block aisles, to say nothing of trying to manoever them past the baby strollers.
People with cars often have the time to go to different grocery stores to get the discounted food. For someone without a car, that can be a couple of hours they might not have to go traipsing about the city. If you're working more than one job, it's that much harder and it's understandable that people in that situation would head for the one supermarket and grab what they can in sizes they can carry, even if that means paying more for fewer servings. And if some items cost more there than they do elsewhere, it adds up.
I'm a stress eater and a boredom eater, trying to change. I'm also an introvert who gravitates to the food tables at parties. I suspect that there are people of all incomes in a similar boat. No, it's not okay to overeat, but it's understandable that people do, rich, poor, or middle-class.
You can dismiss what I've written in this post as more excuses, I suppose, but I'm curious about solutions.
It depends on where you're living. If you're living in a large city - most people don't have cars. You learn to adapt. If you need to buy bulk - then you find a friend with a car or you use a taxi. If that's not in your budget - buying bulk likely isn't in your budget either, since that cost is quite high initially, although it's cheaper over time.
Actually, bulk buying is a lot cheaper than buying at most small stores and it's not true that not having money to pay for a cab there are back means you can't afford to bulk buy items that are mostly reasonably cheap. I mostly don't bulk buy since I have no particular reason to (I could now that I have a car, for years I couldn't easily without a car, although yes I could have asked a friend, since I did have friends with cars). Cabbing to a bulk store and back is going to wreck any savings, as that's extremely expensive. I am not lower income, and yet even for me cabbing places is a luxury and waste of money.
I don't think people are obese because they can't afford healthier options, but I do think that part of the hardship of being poor is that things that are necessities of life are often more expensive than for people who are somewhat better off.1 -
RosieRose7673 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
It's good for you that you didn't care and kept to yourself. That means only gang members and drug dealers get shot?
There are so many bystanders shot yearly by stray bullets or simply because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time. Sure- a percentage of them were involved in drug or gang activity but that definitely doesn't account for all of those affected by the violence.
I was going to make this point, so am glad you did. Living in an unsafe neighborhood can affect people who aren't involved in the violence and certainly affects where one can engage in outdoor activity. Just read something like There Are No Children Here. I have interviewed people who grew up in some of the worst CHA projects back in the day, and even people complaining about how things are now will admit that in the old days it was horrible, they wouldn't allow their children to go outside to play, etc.
That said, I do think the issue is more complex than "it's impossible to safely go to the store." It's typically not, and I'm not sure that stereotype really helps either. There's a pretty good discussion of the food desert/availability issue (as well as many other issues) in Natalie Moore's The South Side (http://us.macmillan.com/thesouthside/natalieymoore/9781137280152), which I would recommend.2 -
Well, yes. Fuel costs.Most people that aren't actively trying to lose weight would choose .99 box of Kraft Dinner over a 2.99 head of broccoli. I don't think the link between poverty and obesity is that much of a stretch.
They probably would. They would probably also choose 99 cents' worth of Kraft macaroni dinner over 50 cents' worth of dried beans. I think that is part of what makes this an intractable problem.
I once bought dried kidney beans as part of an economy drive. I soaked them overnight and boiled them for over an hour as directed. At the end of that, some of them were still worryingly hard (cue angst about poisoning myself). I think now that it was a dud packet of beans that were just too old, but point is that the beans were cheaper in the shop than the alternative, but I'm not sure they remained cheaper when you take in to account fuel costs. The other thing is that you need more than a microwave to cook them.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yup, life's not fair to people who don't have cars. Obama's cash for clunker's program should have been used to give them cars, so life would be more equal.
But life isn't equal and people in suburbia and rural areas have their own set of issues, especially if they are poor.
This was something I had thought about. The focus is often in urban areas, but due to their very nature, things tend to be relatively close. One would think, the truly screwed are the poor who live in areas where it can be 60+ miles to a reasonably sized town. However, these people often tend to be cash poor, but environment resourceful, so to speak.
Exactly! I live on the west side of Buffalo, and have a bunch of grocery stores within 2 miles (and multiple bus lines much closer). I can't think of ANY areas w/in my city where you would be more than half a mile from a bus route that has a full-fledged supermarket on it. In comparison, getting to & from work generally requires a bunch of bus/subway transfers. If someone opts to be lazy and waddle 200 ft to the bodega for chips instead of grabbing a backpack and getting on the bus, that is totally on them. Many little old ladies manage to do it just fine with their pull carts. And no- when you are poor, you don't go to multiple stores...you go to the one that is most convenient of those with reasonable prices and deal with the selection they have.
Now, poor rural areas are a different story. You are pretty much screwed if you don't have a car outside of the city.
Other people tend to forget that people ate a certain way in the winter in the north for a reason. If it looks like the frozen tundra outside, don't *kitten* that strawberries and broccoli are expensive. No *kitten*. It's a luxury of the modern age that we can buy these items up here at all in the winter at any price. Traditional northern soup vegetables are generally quite cheap.
The thing is Ritz, is that a bag of chips is just so much lighter to carry than a pound of potatoes when you have to take three or four public transits and wait in between and walk several blocks and up stairs to your shabby little apartment to and from the food source.
A lot bulkier though for what you get. . All that air takes up valuable space in a backpack compared to raw potatoes.2 -
It costs less than $0.25 to run a crock pot for 8 hrs,
ample time to soften up any vegetable matter we normally eat.3 -
Yeap. Everything we do has "hidden" costs that escape most people. Microwaves are murder on the electricity bill, especially when you have to run it for upwards of 20 minutes making multiple frozen dinners for a family of however many.1 -
Seems simple then, the solution to the obesity problem is use a bit self control and eat less. But of course, if they had more self control they might not be "poor" in the first place.
whoa. wow. i doubt if i'll change your mind, but this is so offensive and ill-informed that i can't let it pass. for what little difference it might make, i have been sub-poverty poor for a pretty fair number of years and i'm not in that place now.
there is no comparison between the day-in-day-out self-control it takes just to function when you're in that place, and the kind of thing comfortable people are always patting their own backs for having more of than anyone else.17 -
Yes, food deserts exist. I live in one. My sister lives 45 minutes from me, up the mountain, and lives in one. While I live in a rural place, I own a car and pass a grocery store (somewhat expensive as it caters to tourists) 5-6 days a week. I shop deals only. I rent in a rural place. And the landlord has graciously allowed me to garden as long as I take care of it. BUT...it isn't cheap to set up. We have clay soil. I cannot use it to grow much. So one raised bed plus soil costs 20-30 dollars.
The cost of a head of cauliflower (I love it roasted) is around 4 dollars. The cost of a head of broccoli is about 3 dollars. Frozen broccoli is 1.24 at the same store. It can't be eaten raw, but it can be steamed. I couldn't afford a brand new steamer, so I waited until I found one at Goodwill for 4 dollars. Now, I can steam broccoli which preserves the vitamins in the produce.
Without my car, I would be helpless.
I couldn't walk to the only store close enough to me (3.4 miles). My knee injury prevents me from walking extremely far. The store does not have any fresh vegetables or fruits. It does carry highly priced ground beef, cheese, and frozen veggies. The milk is competitively priced to the grocery stores I do visit.
None of this is true for my sister beyond the ability to garden. The closest store to her is 25 minutes down the mountain to a gas station that has a deli and a small selection of easy foods. She has to drive another 35 minutes to a grocery store. She does have access to bear and deer from those who hunt. They have a large freezer to help preserve those meats for longer.
Personally, I shop all ads. I use every opportunity to buy in bulk and lump errands into the same trip (i.e. putting the paycheck in the bank, paying bills, and then shopping). I rarely go to the store without having to run an important errand. And personally, my obesity issues are not influenced by the food choices. It is influenced by medical, mental, and emotional issues. But there was a lack of education on healthy food and social influences that created more problems for me as an adult.
For example, my father gardened several times in my childhood. Looking back, I am sure it was to survive and feed 5 children. I received some gardening knowledge during those years. But, he would circumvent that education and introduction to foods by making comments when I asked to try things. "You won't like that," is setting up someone to mentally not like it.
Another example, my mother and stepfather would work doubles five days straight, leaving me to deal with food preparation at 12-16 years old. When we got groceries (every 2-4 weeks), we would buy some fresh fruits and veggies. The veggies and fruit were the first thing to go. We ate it within 2-3 days. As kids. We enjoyed it. But, we didn't have access to go back out and purchase more. Nor, in that instance, could we garden.
None of my childhood experiences discussed the vitamins of food or the macros/micros. It didn't discuss calories. I grew up in what would be considered a generational poverty situation. I am 33 and do not have children. I have a BA that put me in debt. But, I am the second person in my siblings to have graduated college.
What this all means - I have a BA. I am educated. I have a childhood of experiences that fall along the same lines of "urban food deserts" and some that helped shape my experience with new foods. I am obese based on medical, emotional, and mental issues. I live in a rural area. I have no access to public transportation. I live below the US Federal Poverty Line. BUT...I am educating myself and pushing myself to try new foods. (Sweet potatoes are amazing.) I garden.
Some of it comes down to choice; however, the choice can be indirectly influenced by the choices made by the parents and those around you. We tend to forget that media and community and even our parents influence the choices we make and why.10 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Yeap. Everything we do has "hidden" costs that escape most people. Microwaves are murder on the electricity bill, especially when you have to run it for upwards of 20 minutes making multiple frozen dinners for a family of however many.
the other factor that i always see overlooked is time, but imo it is huge. in a life where everything has to be budgeted to the last drop and leeway just doesn't exist, not buying the dry beans that need careful strategizing and planning is a strategic decision sometimes in its own right.
when i was a single parent going to school or working at 50% of the poverty line for this city, i needed the 24/7 concentration and skillz of a general just to manage the things that i did. it's a long time ago, but i think i had it easy back then compared with what people in that same position are up against now.6 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
It's one thing to put yourself out there to walk through that. I would think that you'd tend to think differently when you have to drag 2 or 3 kids through it or think about maybe leaving them alone and unsupervised at home to go to the grocery store.
There are too many statistics on innocent bystanders being hurt for a parent to even think about putting a child at risk.9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
Growing up in the "deepest inner city" as a pasty white kid that was my experience as well.
Certainly, there's a bit of art to walking such that you present as neither victim nor competition, but it can certainly be done.
It's interesting that males are the ones asserting this confidence.19 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »RosieRose7673 wrote: »ladyannique2017 wrote: »Food deserts in general are not a myth. Yes, it's a myth that all poor urban areas are food deserts, but that doesn't mean food deserts don't exist. I've lived in a few. One was a poor urban area in the Midwest. Yes you can look at a street map and see there is a grocery store within walking distance, but street maps do not take into account gang territories or other hazards between you and the food. I lived in a place where it was not safe to go two blocks uptown which is where the grocery store was due to gang boundaries but I could go ten blocks down the hill to the river where there were bars and corner stores just fine. That area was a kind of a neutral zone because it was run by pimps and their hookers.
Another food desert was also a water desert out in the west when I lived in a single wide trailer in a desperately poor rural area. Nearest grocery store was 45mikes away and although we had plumbing, the tap water wasn't safe to drink (EPA notice about arsenic in water) so my dad had to use our beat up rusted out truck to bring home a tank of water every week as well as food.
Electricity wasn't too dependable in either place...urban or country and so we couldn't buy fresh veg or meat because it would rot to nothing in a day. Lots of canned and dried foods. I think people assume everyone has access to a refrigerator/freezer when many poor people don't.
Thank you very much for posting this. I really feel that it is very easy for people to put horse blinders on when it comes to this.
It's very easy to say that there's a supermarket a mile away. Why don't they go there?
I live in Chicago currently and in a decent part of the city. However, for my job, I did have to travel to very high crime, poor areas. I've met a family who lived in an unfinished basement. 3 kids and a mom who was taking online classes to get a better job. However, the area was extremely dangerous. Homicides are high in the area as well as gang violence. Sure, if they could hop in a car and drive to a supermarket a mile or so away, they could. BUT- when you don't have a car, don't have any money to spare and have to walk that all the way to a supermarket that far with 3 kids in a high crime area, it's not the super market they are looking for. They are looking for something to eat that's both affordable and safe to get. Often times, that may mean the corner convenience store.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you look a statistics about proximity to supermarkets, it's easy to overlook other factors that can influence the ability to get fresh food.
This is another area where I am admittedly biased. I have lived in "the hood" in multiple cities over the years, and never once had a problem out of anyone. We'd regularly have people shot in the parking lots of two of the places I live, yet I never got so much as a sideways glance. I attribute this to the fact that I mind my own damned business, and never got tangled up in the things that tend to get people shot (drug money, *kitten* with someone's wife/girlfriend, having a big mouth, etc.)
I don't give a damn if someone got capped right under my window, I didn't crack the blinds, I didn't see *kitten*, it's not my business. So yeah, even fat and nerdy whitey can live in some nasty neighborhoods without incident, if you know what you are doing. vOv
It's one thing to put yourself out there to walk through that. I would think that you'd tend to think differently when you have to drag 2 or 3 kids through it or think about maybe leaving them alone and unsupervised at home to go to the grocery store.
There are too many statistics on innocent bystanders being hurt for a parent to even think about putting a child at risk.
I do not have children, but my best friend and his family (wife and three girls aged 5-8) shared an apartment with me for some time. They had no problems either, and didn't own a car outside of his company truck which was GPSed so he couldn't use it for random running. They walked to stores.
That said, the wife and kids didn't go out often when he wasn't with them, unless just going to the playground area in the complex, or something.1 -
This popped up in my FB memories today. Tell me a poor person would choose the blueberries when they have 4 mouths to feed. I dare you3 -
-
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »
Frozen or not, calorie for calorie I'd have a tough time justifying berries over something that would fill my kids' bellies if I was poor. Not to mention that they may work two jobs and the convenience of a 5 minute meal that's cheap is probably very attractive. I'm not saying it can't be done but the likelihood is slim.
9 -
I wouldn't choose either (I can get prices on frozen berries like Gallomere mentions and buy them). Also, although blueberries are not in season right now here (as in most of the US), you can get a pint or a bit under 300 g for around 2.99 usually even now. I checked specials for my closest store and blueberries aren't on special, but blackberries are, for 69 cents for 6 oz (170 g), or $1.17 for the amount featured in that ad, so I am skeptical about that being a normal price for non-organic berries. Here at the moment organic blueberries are cheaper, even.
Bigger issue is that I know someone is not serious about comparing eating healthfully and non healthfully when you include soda. Soda has no nutrients, it's a pure luxury good. It makes no sense to compare it to a food that you would have for a meal. (It's also dirt cheap to make, most of the cost is packaging and marketing.)
Some of those packaged goods can be loss leaders too. Mac and cheese (which is not in my mind an actual meal) is often quite cheap, yeah. Other things, some of which take more work, are quite cheap also. The question -- and since this seems to be a common rhetorical strategy -- this is asked sincerely: what is the point of pulling out one individual nutrient-dense food that happens to be overpriced or high priced in one example and comparing it to some low nutrient snacky food that happens to be cheap. Yeah, lots of packaged stuff in the US is cheap -- how does that hurt people or would it help people to make it more costly? Hardly.
The real question is whether the actual cost of preparing a healthful meal is in and of itself expensive. The data suggests that when it comes to cost as percentage of income it's not expensive in the US (in part because our meat and eggs and dairy are quite cheap compared to lots of places), and -- significantly -- it's been declining over time. Why? In part because we can get things like frozen and even out of season have markets flooded with produce from all over.
In my supermarket, there seems to be a huge market for convenience goods in produce -- basically fresh (or "fresh") produce pre-cut. I think this is a terrible deal -- it's marked up enormously and goes bad fast and usually tastes worse (because it starts going bad before you buy it). Also bagged greens (which I do buy), baby cut carrots, and of course way marked up organic options and things way out of season. If people weren't (generally) able to buy produce because they were so expensive, all of this stuff (which the blueberries in the example might be related to) would not be such a booming market.
That I can go buy overpriced mangoes (actually mangos have a decent deal right now) and avocados and fish at WF, which I could, does not change the fact that I actually could buy an extremely healthful week's worth of food for quite a low price. Now, can everyone? That's the food desert issue and I do think it's harder for some, but claiming that Kraft is too cheap (or pop) and some random blueberries are crazy high doesn't really address the problem.
Glad no one on my FB feed goes on about such things, or I'd get unfriended or blocked, probably, LOL!
(Also, I will never call it Kraft Dinner. What is this some Canadian nightmare term? It's Kraft mac and cheese.)3 -
This popped up in my FB memories today. Tell me a poor person would choose the blueberries when they have 4 mouths to feed. I dare you
False dichotomy, like juxtaposing Hot Pockets and caviar, instead of Hot Pockets and chicken thighs. Traditionally the poor have made prudent yet healthy choices like cabbage and potatoes.
Edited to correct Hit Pickets, which would be a really cool product.6 -
dp
1 -
Besides the food dessert idea, this is missing the cost of fresh fruits and vegetables compared to the cost of processed food. It is also not accounting for the cost of a gym membership if an neighborhood does not have safe access to a park. It also does not account for the cost of health insurance for poorer populations who may not be able to afford to go to the doctor to regularly find out that they should be losing weight and the cost for a nutritionist. For those families that are working several jobs, putting food on the table regardless of what kind of food, because they are too tired or do not have access to the internet at home to research how to cook more nutritious meals....This is missing a lot about numerous studies linking obesity and poverty.
While their definition of a food dessert includes fast food and corner stores is different than many of the studies I have read. Most define the food dessert as not having access to fresh fruits and vegetables within a 1/4 mile walk as food dessert. I know that isn't true in my neighborhood. I also find that the fruits and vegetables at corner stores and fast food places are more expensive than processed food, even at grocery stores. So yes there are many, many factors going into the problem.4
This discussion has been closed.
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