ACV - Any results ?
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AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.3 -
French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
Yup, the study that shows some correlation between vinegar and blood sugar control actually used red wine vinegar and their conclusion is that ANY vinegar would have the same benefits. Vinegar and oil on your salad is a prescription I can get behind.1 -
French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
Isn't vinegar a mild diuretic? 4kg sounds like a reasonable amount of water weight to lose...0 -
ladyreva78 wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
Isn't vinegar a mild diuretic? 4kg sounds like a reasonable amount of water weight to lose...
That was for the entire 3 months though...if it were a diuretic, you would expect it all to come off in a whooosh (and then stay off? I don't know how diuretics function over time). If you look at Table 4 in the study, their weight loss appears to be happening over the entire period. I dunno.0 -
Opposite effect. When I dip my french fries in vinegar I gain weight.13
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French_Peasant wrote: »ladyreva78 wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
Isn't vinegar a mild diuretic? 4kg sounds like a reasonable amount of water weight to lose...
That was for the entire 3 months though...if it were a diuretic, you would expect it all to come off in a whooosh (and then stay off? I don't know how diuretics function over time). If you look at Table 4 in the study, their weight loss appears to be happening over the entire period. I dunno.
Good point. So it's probably a mix of "this is gross I'm not going to eat anything right now" + "I've gotta pee a whole lot" + "hey, they're watching what I'm eating... so I'll just eat less"...1 -
French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
This is a decent, well thought out response.
But can we address the strawmen in the room? I never argued that people should solely drink ACV to lose weight. That would be stupid. I don't advocate people to solely eat kale to lose weight either, even though it is healthy. It may help, as an appetite suppressant, diuretic, or placebo, or just aid in digestion so your stomach doesn't hurt which allows you to work out more, so along with diet and exercise, I don't see the harm in trying it.
Second strawman, anyone who drinks it straight up is dumb and has a much higher pain tolerance than I do. This is an argument from extremes. If we are doing that, people shouldn't count calories because in some cases it leads to anorexia.0 -
AliceNotInChains wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »The argument is that acv leads to weight loss. You have introduced a reason why it may not be the product itself, but the psychological processes behind it. My point is that just because something doesn't have a physiological affect on weightloss, doesn't mean it doesn't have an effect. It may be a psychological one. If the product is something as cheap and harmless as apple cider vinegar, then the process variables don't matter, imo. If someone sticks to their health plan because they aren't going to drink a couple of tablespoons of apple cider vinegar for nothing, then more power to them. How is that any different than any other means of motivation to achieve their results?
But why give credit to a product that has no impact, rather than the thing that does, a calorie deficit that the Individual created?
Calorie deficits may be too abstract for some people. In order to lose weight, some people need to feel invested in their journey, and taking something may help them feel that way in a way that just cognitively knowing that they have achieved a calorie deficit does not.
Another thing that we have not discussed- an absence of peer reviewed evidence does not mean that something does not have an effect. In fact, I'd argue that unless there is peer reviewed evidence against it, and there is anecdotal evidence dating back to the 16th century, then we can't rule it out as having a positive effect.
Yes - let's bring back bloodletting too. I'm sure there's a naturopath out there using this.1 -
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AliceNotInChains wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
This is a decent, well thought out response.
But can we address the strawmen in the room? I never argued that people should solely drink ACV to lose weight. That would be stupid. I don't advocate people to solely eat kale to lose weight either, even though it is healthy. It may help, as an appetite suppressant, diuretic, or placebo, or just aid in digestion so your stomach doesn't hurt which allows you to work out more, so along with diet and exercise, I don't see the harm in trying it.
Second strawman, anyone who drinks it straight up is dumb and has a much higher pain tolerance than I do. This is an argument from extremes. If we are doing that, people shouldn't count calories because in some cases it leads to anorexia.
If somebody started a thread called "Kale - any results?" and posed the same question, I hope they would get the same advice. One can eat kale and lose weight, one can eat kale and gain weight, one can lose weight without ever eating kale, etc. Kale has nothing to do with your weight, it's just a food. According to all the evidence available, ACV is the same way.
The reason why many people discourage people from thinking something will cause weight loss in the absence of evidence is that there are so many more effective things they could be focusing on. All the energy we spend going after unproven strategies can be a distraction from what will actually work to help someone meet their goals.
That's the harm in trying it -- it's never just ACV. It's raspberry ketones and master cleanses and shrink wraps and green tea extract and Hydroxycut and aloe juice and the Military Diet and never having carbohydrates after noon and Shakeology and a never-ending parade of BS that is distracting people from what they can actually do to help themselves.13 -
janejellyroll wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »French_Peasant wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »VintageFeline wrote: »I just can't fathom the logic or lack of critical thinking that makes people think vinegar is somehow magical. I mean, basic knowledge of how digestion works would generally clue people in. But people don't want to put in the work or believe their weight management is out of their control/don't want to admit that it is solely their responsibility.
And obesity and treatments aren't sexy? Then why are there huge campaigns and multiple dramatic headlines almost every day about diet this, investment that, government initiatives in many countries? Come on now, again let's display a little critical, logical thinking here.
Vinegar isn't sexy. Have you ever tried to get published? Have you ever written a grant proposal? But there is some research, just not a lot. A study in Japan, published in Bioscience, Biotechnology, and Biochemistry (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1271/bbb.90231), and someone is trying to replicate in America.
I have pored over this before and have not been impressed. If you read this study carefully, you will see that the participants in the low and high vinegar groups lost, at most, 2-4 kg over 3 months. And then the following month, the low-vinegar group put ALL the weight back on, and the high vinegar group put ALMOST all the weight back on, in just a single month.
Based on that, why would you encourage people to potentially damage their teeth and esophagus, and have to drink something nasty every day, when they could instead lose 16 lbs in the same time period using MFP, while developing habits that will help them control their eating for the rest of their lives?
At most, I think this might make the case for ACV as an appetite suppressant for some people (which is plausible), but personally I would prefer to encourage people to use ANY vinegar as a great low-calorie salad dressing or eat some pickled veggies as a snack.
This is a decent, well thought out response.
But can we address the strawmen in the room? I never argued that people should solely drink ACV to lose weight. That would be stupid. I don't advocate people to solely eat kale to lose weight either, even though it is healthy. It may help, as an appetite suppressant, diuretic, or placebo, or just aid in digestion so your stomach doesn't hurt which allows you to work out more, so along with diet and exercise, I don't see the harm in trying it.
Second strawman, anyone who drinks it straight up is dumb and has a much higher pain tolerance than I do. This is an argument from extremes. If we are doing that, people shouldn't count calories because in some cases it leads to anorexia.
If somebody started a thread called "Kale - any results?" and posed the same question, I hope they would get the same advice. One can eat kale and lose weight, one can eat kale and gain weight, one can lose weight without ever eating kale, etc. Kale has nothing to do with your weight, it's just a food. According to all the evidence available, ACV is the same way.
The reason why many people discourage people from thinking something will cause weight loss in the absence of evidence is that there are so many more effective things they could be focusing on. All the energy we spend going after unproven strategies can be a distraction from what will actually work to help someone meet their goals.
That's the harm in trying it -- it's never just ACV. It's raspberry ketones and master cleanses and shrink wraps and green tea extract and Hydroxycut and aloe juice and the Military Diet and never having carbohydrates after noon and Shakeology and a never-ending parade of BS that is distracting people from what they can actually do to help themselves.
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enterdanger wrote: »Opposite effect. When I dip my french fries in vinegar I gain weight.
Same thing happens when I slather it all over my plate of pulled pork with a pile of baked beans and a mountain of potato salad and about 12 beers...5 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »enterdanger wrote: »Opposite effect. When I dip my french fries in vinegar I gain weight.
Same thing happens when I slather it all over my plate of pulled pork with a pile of baked beans and a mountain of potato salad and about 12 beers...
It's probably just your metabolism. Try having a beer every two hours to keep your metabolism from going down, and don't skip the breakfast beer. It's the most important beer of the day.9 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »AliceNotInChains wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »It helps with gall bladder stones. It definitely helps with acne. Some studies have shown it helps insulin sensitivity. I'm not such a skeptic to think it won't work, but there is no magic pill... or juice. You can always try it for what- $2 a bottle? If you feel better, then its a success. (And those who scream "maybe its the placebo affect!" the placebo affect works, so as long as it gets results, I wouldn't knock it.)
So much wrong with this. Placebo effect is basically no effect that could not be obtained with water. As to the others, do you have any reliable links that it does anything for gallstones? I'd be real interested in that as it is a side effect of weight loss I am paranoid about, and would not be subject to a placebo effect.
Why am I replying here?
Helps with gallstones and acne is personal experience. I was on a very natural diet until college when I went crazy on fast, fatty foods. When I started to lose weight, I got pretty painful gallstones, multiple times. The only thing that helped it was vinegar. Instant pain relief, and now I haven't had any in a few years.
Also, the placebo affect is no effect that couldn't be obtained with water, but it is a really fascinating thing because even though it is literally a placebo, if people believe that it works, it does. Such a weird facet of the human mind.
Placebos don't magically cause physiological effects because one believes they do. Things that are less tangible, like pain, which can have a psychological component, can be affected. Body fat cannot.
Placebos can cause physiological effects (though not magically
). It is one of the strange and fascinating things about placebos. In clinical trials of blood medication, a placebo is required since it's known that providing a placebo can effect the patients' blood pressure. Source. In other words, they have to make sure that the drug they're testing has better results than the placebo--so they know that the drug itself has some value beyond the placebo effect.) So it's not just a matter of "oh, they just THINK something is different." Blood pressure is measurable.
Not that I am suggesting anyone chugs ACV for the placebo effect, since it sounds like it's very tough on tooth enamel and the gut. Not something I would ever drink straight.0 -
I use ACV to cook my black beans. Very tasty
It does zero for weight loss0 -
Just be aware that some have had good results, other say it made their reflux worse.0 -
PaulaWallaDingDong wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »enterdanger wrote: »Opposite effect. When I dip my french fries in vinegar I gain weight.
Same thing happens when I slather it all over my plate of pulled pork with a pile of baked beans and a mountain of potato salad and about 12 beers...
It's probably just your metabolism. Try having a beer every two hours to keep your metabolism from going down, and don't skip the breakfast beer. It's the most important beer of the day.
Hmmm...do you spy on me when I'm camping?
I actually have a Java Stout that I really like to take camping...usually have it after breakfast on a lounge day...while I smoke a nice cigar.1 -
elisa123gal wrote: »most of these people parrot what they think is true.. they haven't tried it..
How do you know they haven't? Are you the fly on everyone's wall?1
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