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Elementary School Gym teachers telling kids to restrict calories!

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Replies

  • RachelElser
    RachelElser Posts: 1,049 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    For all the people saying she was doing the right thing - question. If you felt that your kid had had enough to eat for the day, would you give them a handful of nuts instead of dinner? Seeing as how your cool with them being taught that's a reasonable thing to do?

    This might shock you, but my kids sometimes skip dinner if they are not hungry.

    Crazy, right?

    smh.

    Read the question.

    smh.

    Ok, if they had a big lunch, and only wanted a handful of nuts, why not?

    IIFYM.

    "if they are not hungry."
    " only wanted a handful of nuts"

    The question has nothing to do with their hunger levels, or what they want - I asked if you decided the kid had had enough calories for the day, would you give them a handful of nuts instead of dinner.

    The teacher wasn't teaching "Don't eat if you are not hungry" she was teaching that if you're out of calories, don't eat dinner.

    Yes. I've cut my kids off of food when I know they've exceeded what they should be eating for a day. How is this odd?

    Oh wait, I get it! In the US, food equals love, rather than just nutrition.

    What makes you think I'm in the US? And you've not fed your kids dinner, when they're hungry, because you figure they've had enough fr the day? for real?

    If they have had enough, they won't be hungry. They may want to eat a lot out of habit or because they like the taste of the food being served, but they should not actually be hungry.

    Even if the kids are a bit hungry at bedtime once in a while, that isn't a bad thing either. IMO Just yesterday my middle son was procrastianting snacking in the evening. Bedtime rolled around and he hadnt eaten for about 5 hours. He went to bed anyways because it was time to go to bed. He may have been hungry but he can eat in the morning. He's 12.

    Or they pull the "I'm not hungry" at dinner, but then want chips/cookies a half hour later. Yeah, not happening.
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    I think that just like any math concept, it should be included in the curriculum at the appropriate age.

    And like every other concept in mathematics, there's a reason that we start kids out with counting and arithmetic rather than algebra, discrete mathematics or calculus.

    Adding and subtracting four digit numbers is something my school taught in third grade. When I was 8. No reason those four digit numbers couldn't be calories.

    Right, but the concept of CICO is much more like an algebraic equation (or sets of equations) than simple addition/subtraction. In fact, I'd say - for growing kids - it's more like a differential equation.

    There are quite a few (some unknown) variables in the CICO model - algebra. Additionally, as the kids grow, those variables change based on their individual rates of growth, among other things - DiffEQs. While we can teach kids what Calories are, and about energy balance, I'm doubtful that kids of the age in question are going to be able to successfully apply these concepts until they understand more and are able to identify most of the variables.
  • coreyreichle
    coreyreichle Posts: 1,039 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    fitbritt__ wrote: »
    highly inappropriate. teaching and encouraging healthy eating habits is extremely important, especially childhood obesity rates being what they are. however, there are other ways to go about this than pushing calorie counting. that's not even as NECESSARY as really teaching what good food choices look like, and how to include those in every day life.

    You do know this entire site, and it's mobile app is centered around calorie counting, right?

    And the terms of service prohibit minors from using the site. So...

    ... and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

    That's what I was getting at. The poster suggested that the teacher shouldn't be focusing on calorie counting with the children, and you said (paraphrasing) "but this is a calorie counting website." My point is that children aren't supposed to be using this site, so how is that relevant to the discussion?

    Well, I was mainly replying to this line...

    "there are other ways to go about this than pushing calorie counting"

    Calorie counting is the one sure-fire way to ensure you maintain a healthy weight. Obviously, kids not learning about calorie counting is working really well to ensure we have an obesity epidemic.

    I think it's important for kids to learn about energy balance, that being at a healthy weight is about an equation: calories in and calories out (CICO). I think it would be important to teach kids things like the CO side includes the calories you burn just being alive, as well as being active, as well as exercising for fitness. We have a lot of adults who come here who don't even have that basic understanding. I think you should teach kids that when that equation is unbalanced one way or the other, it has an impact on your weight. Again, lots of adults who come here don't understand that it's really about a mathematical energy balance equation.

    Then I think it's really important to teach kids about nutrition, both macro and micro nutrients, and moderation. Depending on the age, I don't think you need to stress counting calories for children; and given that this was in an elementary school, I don't think that needs to come up as more than a passing reference.

    So, why do you think many adults come here, lacking understanding about it all just being an energy balance?

    Could it be, perhaps, calorie counting only gets a passing reference today, in school? School is where this stuff SHOULD be taught.

    I think that just like any math concept, it should be included in the curriculum at the appropriate age. Elementary school kids, don't need to get into counting calories just like they wouldn't be doing trig and calculus. Talking about nutrition IS the most important thing for elementary school aged kids. As they get older, then the calorie concept can become a larger focus, even getting into calorie counting - maybe calculating the differences between calorie content of different macronutrients and how that would contribute to a day. I've heard of high school classes where the kids design meal plans and calculate the calories and nutrition for a day or week or even a month, for different individuals. I think that's a great lesson, at that age.

    I think the reason so many people come here not understanding CICO is that the fundamental energy balance isn't taught. That doesn't even have to get into counting calories. I'm a proponent for counting calories, obviously, but I know that there are other ways to be successful at managing the weight without counting and logging. But whether you count cals or not, CICO still applies and THAT is the message that I think is failing to be taught to individuals of many ages...

    You do understand that caloric intake is the foundation upon which nutrition lies, right? Maco and micro ratios are ratios dependent on the whole caloric total. Hard to figure those out, if you don't know what you're taking in...
  • heiliskrimsli
    heiliskrimsli Posts: 735 Member
    TR0berts wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    I think that just like any math concept, it should be included in the curriculum at the appropriate age.

    And like every other concept in mathematics, there's a reason that we start kids out with counting and arithmetic rather than algebra, discrete mathematics or calculus.

    Adding and subtracting four digit numbers is something my school taught in third grade. When I was 8. No reason those four digit numbers couldn't be calories.

    Right, but the concept of CICO is much more like an algebraic equation (or sets of equations) than simple addition/subtraction. In fact, I'd say - for growing kids - it's more like a differential equation.

    There are quite a few (some unknown) variables in the CICO model - algebra. Additionally, as the kids grow, those variables change based on their individual rates of growth, among other things - DiffEQs. While we can teach kids what Calories are, and about energy balance, I'm doubtful that kids of the age in question are going to be able to successfully apply these concepts until they understand more and are able to identify most of the variables.

    And unless you're putting your future Olympic athlete kid through some pretty serious testing to determine their exact BMR and caloric expenditure at particular levels of exercise activity to maximize their performance, or conducting a NASA study on the effect of laying down for six months without a measurable change in weight, the algebra and differential equations that you're talking about are completely irrelevant overkill.

    There are guidelines, based on age, for the appropriate number of calories for kids to consume on a daily basis. Those guidelines are applicable to all but the very ends of the bell curve of people, and let's face it, if a kid really is at the extreme end they probably have some kind of medical supervision because they're either immobile or a prodigious athlete.

    It is not that hard to start them out by learning what that guideline is each year of school (as it corresponds to their age) and how much of those calories are taken up by a chocolate bar, or a potato, or a chicken drumstick. Using extremes to try to invalidate a reasonable approach to nutrition is not helpful.
  • WinoGelato
    WinoGelato Posts: 13,455 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »

    You do understand that caloric intake is the foundation upon which nutrition lies, right? Maco and micro ratios are ratios dependent on the whole caloric total. Hard to figure those out, if you don't know what you're taking in...

    The bigger question is, do you understand age appropriateness when it comes to calorie counting and nutrition? 11 year olds are too young to be counting calories. They are NOT too young to learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food and what makes up good nutrition and a balanced diet. They are at the age where they are beginning to learn about fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Pushing them to actually COUNT the macros and calories is not something they are ready for. High School kids, sure. Elementary and Middle School kids, no.

    Exactly. They don't need to learn to do the math yet, they need to learn that there is an important concept coming down the road. It's laying a foundation so that when they are age appropriate, they can learn to count calories, or not even count them - just that calories are what drive the overall energy balance equation.
  • heiliskrimsli
    heiliskrimsli Posts: 735 Member
    Maybe the approach of waiting until high school isn't so sound considering that there has been a rise in the prevalence type 2 diabetes in children.

    It's kind of like waiting to teach sex ed until they're already teenage parents.
  • VintageFeline
    VintageFeline Posts: 6,771 Member
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    earlnabby wrote: »

    You do understand that caloric intake is the foundation upon which nutrition lies, right? Maco and micro ratios are ratios dependent on the whole caloric total. Hard to figure those out, if you don't know what you're taking in...

    The bigger question is, do you understand age appropriateness when it comes to calorie counting and nutrition? 11 year olds are too young to be counting calories. They are NOT too young to learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food and what makes up good nutrition and a balanced diet. They are at the age where they are beginning to learn about fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Pushing them to actually COUNT the macros and calories is not something they are ready for. High School kids, sure. Elementary and Middle School kids, no.

    Exactly. They don't need to learn to do the math yet, they need to learn that there is an important concept coming down the road. It's laying a foundation so that when they are age appropriate, they can learn to count calories, or not even count them - just that calories are what drive the overall energy balance equation.

    And at that age I'd much rather they were taught what are often foods and what are sometimes foods. It's a great basis to get them started on thinking about what they eat. That's really all a 10 year old needs to know.

    It is also important for parents to implement those things at home, again without focusing on being caught up in the calorie content of food. I'd be horrified to see a kid checking food labels for calories and getting hyper-focused on that. And that is a very real risk.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    edited April 2017
    Maybe the approach of waiting until high school isn't so sound considering that there has been a rise in the prevalence type 2 diabetes in children.

    It's kind of like waiting to teach sex ed until they're already teenage parents.

    A discussion of nutrition and calories and all that could reasonably happen in elementary school and probably does. I teach an after school class for middle-schoolers (they are in a grade school here and then go to high school), and they actually know quite a lot about nutrition/calories, as it came up unprovoked because of a different discussion. Also, none of these particular kids are overweight. I suspect that has more to do with their families than what they know from school (kids are taught about history and gov't too, but plenty of people don't seem to retain anything), but these particular kids are pretty smart and have education-minded families. Anyway, point is that from that and other things I know about local schools, there are quite often elementary level nutrition classes.

    That's different from a teacher who is NOT teaching such a class talking about how she thinks they should count calories and skip meals if they eat too much. For most kids probably no harm, but it could be harmful, and is not the same thing as a nutrition class that discusses how good nutrition includes figuring out how many calories you should be eating and how to create a day that achieves that. (And for kids I would not be suggesting that you overeat early and then skip dinner. The nuts thing is still weird as it's easy to have a more balanced meal for similar calories.)
  • heiliskrimsli
    heiliskrimsli Posts: 735 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »
    As for the rising obesity rates, that is squarely on the adults in the kids life. By middle school they already have observed years of adult behavior and if the adults in their lives eat in an unhealthy manner, the kids will too. It is not the teacher's job to correct bad habits learned at home.

    I can certainly see how ensuring absolutely nothing that might provide a counterpoint to the bad habits that are impressed upon them at home should be occurring at school. We'll just accept that type 2 diabetes has now become common enough in children that it can no longer be called adult onset diabetes, that pediatricians have to have bariatric scales in their offices, and that teenagers are getting gastric sleeves.

    Let's employ that same strategy with sex ed while we're at it. We'd hate to arm kids with factual information that could potentially prevent them from ever having to face the serious medical consequences of uninformed choices.
  • MoiAussi93
    MoiAussi93 Posts: 1,948 Member
    edited April 2017
    earlnabby wrote: »

    You do understand that caloric intake is the foundation upon which nutrition lies, right? Maco and micro ratios are ratios dependent on the whole caloric total. Hard to figure those out, if you don't know what you're taking in...

    The bigger question is, do you understand age appropriateness when it comes to calorie counting and nutrition? 11 year olds are too young to be counting calories. They are NOT too young to learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food and what makes up good nutrition and a balanced diet. They are at the age where they are beginning to learn about fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Pushing them to actually COUNT the macros and calories is not something they are ready for. High School kids, sure. Elementary and Middle School kids, no.

    Who says 11 is too young? You? Because I disagree. Please explain to me how it is possible for an 11-year-old to "learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food" without actually discussing calories and what is high vs low? HIgh and low have no meaning unless you also consider total calories you should be eating.

    It makes no sense to me that they are old enough to talk about carbohydrates vs protein...but too young to discuss appropriate calorie ranges.

    We have waaaaaay too many obese children. The sooner they learn about what actually causes obesity (eating too many calories), the more equipped they are to make appropriate choices.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Relser wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    For all the people saying she was doing the right thing - question. If you felt that your kid had had enough to eat for the day, would you give them a handful of nuts instead of dinner? Seeing as how your cool with them being taught that's a reasonable thing to do?

    This might shock you, but my kids sometimes skip dinner if they are not hungry.

    Crazy, right?

    smh.

    Read the question.

    smh.

    Ok, if they had a big lunch, and only wanted a handful of nuts, why not?

    IIFYM.

    "if they are not hungry."
    " only wanted a handful of nuts"

    The question has nothing to do with their hunger levels, or what they want - I asked if you decided the kid had had enough calories for the day, would you give them a handful of nuts instead of dinner.

    The teacher wasn't teaching "Don't eat if you are not hungry" she was teaching that if you're out of calories, don't eat dinner.

    Yes. I've cut my kids off of food when I know they've exceeded what they should be eating for a day. How is this odd?

    Oh wait, I get it! In the US, food equals love, rather than just nutrition.

    What makes you think I'm in the US? And you've not fed your kids dinner, when they're hungry, because you figure they've had enough fr the day? for real?

    If they have had enough, they won't be hungry. They may want to eat a lot out of habit or because they like the taste of the food being served, but they should not actually be hungry.

    Even if the kids are a bit hungry at bedtime once in a while, that isn't a bad thing either. IMO Just yesterday my middle son was procrastianting snacking in the evening. Bedtime rolled around and he hadnt eaten for about 5 hours. He went to bed anyways because it was time to go to bed. He may have been hungry but he can eat in the morning. He's 12.

    Or they pull the "I'm not hungry" at dinner, but then want chips/cookies a half hour later. Yeah, not happening.

    No kidding.
  • lucypstacy
    lucypstacy Posts: 178 Member
    I taught 4th and 5th grade. What we taught children was about healthy eating habits - such as drinking water instead of pop. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with teaching children about different choices, but we still know they aren't the ones buying groceries or cooking meals. We need to talk to the parents because they need to be educated as well.

    While bringing up the concept of calories is fine, you have to be careful when you start talking about counting calories. As children grow, they are conscious of themselves compared to their peers. I've seen many who might be a little bigger framed or put on a little weight before a growth spurt be terrified that they are fat. Kids will often pick on their classmates for the same reasons - and I'm not even talking about the ones who are overweight but also the ones who may be a different size.

    The sad thing is that while there are obese children, it's not really because of their choices. It's because of their parents' choices. While they can say they want better food options in their house, not all parents listen. Some will, but many won't. Hopefully, we can educated the parents through the children, but sometimes it doesn't happen.
  • MoiAussi93
    MoiAussi93 Posts: 1,948 Member
    earlnabby wrote: »
    MoiAussi93 wrote: »
    earlnabby wrote: »

    You do understand that caloric intake is the foundation upon which nutrition lies, right? Maco and micro ratios are ratios dependent on the whole caloric total. Hard to figure those out, if you don't know what you're taking in...

    The bigger question is, do you understand age appropriateness when it comes to calorie counting and nutrition? 11 year olds are too young to be counting calories. They are NOT too young to learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food and what makes up good nutrition and a balanced diet. They are at the age where they are beginning to learn about fat, protein, and carbohydrates. Pushing them to actually COUNT the macros and calories is not something they are ready for. High School kids, sure. Elementary and Middle School kids, no.

    Who says 11 is too young? You? Because I disagree. Please explain to me how it is possible for an 11-year-old to "learn about what makes a high calorie or low calorie food" without actually discussing calories and what is high vs low? HIgh and low have no meaning unless you also consider total calories you should be eating.

    It makes no sense to me that they are old enough to talk about carbohydrates vs protein...but too young to discuss appropriate calorie ranges.

    We have waaaaaay too many obese children. The sooner they learn about what actually causes obesity (eating too many calories), the more equipped they are to make appropriate choices.

    There is a difference between understanding what a calorie is and how it impacts health and actually counting calories. Middle school kids are old enough to understand the concept but too young to understand how to apply it appropriately. It is a progression based on how mature their brains are.

    I suppose we just disagree then.
  • heiliskrimsli
    heiliskrimsli Posts: 735 Member
    You are being selective, you have deliberately cropped out the rest of the response which clearly stated teaching children about nutrition should absolutely be done but that healthy behaviours start in the home. Kids don't get obese at school, they get obese from what their parents allow them to eat.

    I think you're being selective by deliberately ignoring that controlling the quantity of intake is a vital and fundamental part of proper nutrition.
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    I feel like you're either willfully misconstruing what people are saying, or ignoring many of the salient points.

    You mean like ignoring that the number of calories one consumes is a vital and inextricable part of that person's diet and nutrition, which is what you're doing when you argue that nutrition should be taught without discussing calories.
    At that point, they aren't choosing the foods, their parents are. As they grow older, talk about choices that they may be starting to make, and introduce more of the mathematical piece so they understand what impact their choices will have. Eventually you can have them start counting calories, but it may never even be necessary for children, if the foundation is built properly.

    They can learn what a portion size is, what calories are, what the recommended intake for their age is, and what happens when you consistently exceed that.