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Is There a Metabolic Advantage to a Ketogenic Diet?
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »One thing I would like to note: there is a significant difference between what can occur with a diet, than what will actually occur following part of a diet. With things like muscle sparring and/or growth, one cannot expect to maintain, let alone gain muscle, if they are not following the specific protocols to achieve those goals. I can't tell you how many times we have these arguments, but yet, very few people actually follow all of the protocols to achieve those goals.
Personally, I am looking to squeeze everything out of my journey to get abs; yes, this most of what I am doing is majoring in the minors but I am looking for optimal. So I have a moderate deficit, 1g of pro per lb of weight, higher carbs (anti catabolic), and time nutrients; the only thing I do not do yet is take creatine since last time it gave me stomach cramps. Outside of that, I follow a 4 day upper/lower program that is based on compound lifts and is progressive overload in nature; the program is Bigger Leaner Strong. It's a basic linear progression program where 90% of my work is done at 85% of my 1RM; not theoretically, my actual 1RM. I am still considered a noob when it comes to lifting. I started at roughly 16% body fat and have since lost about 5 lbs. Now have I gained muscle... I don't know, but I certainly have a greater chance than the average person based on my knowledge and the fact that my strength gains are climbing quickly (I do equate most of that to CNS adaptations). But I wont' know exactly since I haven't had a DEXA scan. The only thing that would support muscle growth would be to gain inches which I won't look at for another 8 weeks or more.
I recently picked up BLS myself, as I needed a new book. While I prefer 5/3/1's progression setup, I have taken Michael's advice regarding HIIT and shuffling my macros around (though I did keep protein higher than recommended, I dialed it back a LOT). It's a recent change, so no way to tell the effect yet, but time will tell. Feels decent, but we shall see.
Which program you following, the 3,4 or 5? I am doing the 4.
Amusingly, after comparing my current 5/3/1 OSfS setup, it's nearly identical to the 4 in BLS. The only difference is the way the primary lift progression is structured.
I noticed that too. But I enjoyed the volume a bit more with BLS as compared to the short period of time i was doing 5/3/1. I also like that it varies accessory moves every 8 weeks.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »One thing I would like to note: there is a significant difference between what can occur with a diet, than what will actually occur following part of a diet. With things like muscle sparring and/or growth, one cannot expect to maintain, let alone gain muscle, if they are not following the specific protocols to achieve those goals. I can't tell you how many times we have these arguments, but yet, very few people actually follow all of the protocols to achieve those goals.
Personally, I am looking to squeeze everything out of my journey to get abs; yes, this most of what I am doing is majoring in the minors but I am looking for optimal. So I have a moderate deficit, 1g of pro per lb of weight, higher carbs (anti catabolic), and time nutrients; the only thing I do not do yet is take creatine since last time it gave me stomach cramps. Outside of that, I follow a 4 day upper/lower program that is based on compound lifts and is progressive overload in nature; the program is Bigger Leaner Strong. It's a basic linear progression program where 90% of my work is done at 85% of my 1RM; not theoretically, my actual 1RM. I am still considered a noob when it comes to lifting. I started at roughly 16% body fat and have since lost about 5 lbs. Now have I gained muscle... I don't know, but I certainly have a greater chance than the average person based on my knowledge and the fact that my strength gains are climbing quickly (I do equate most of that to CNS adaptations). But I wont' know exactly since I haven't had a DEXA scan. The only thing that would support muscle growth would be to gain inches which I won't look at for another 8 weeks or more.
I recently picked up BLS myself, as I needed a new book. While I prefer 5/3/1's progression setup, I have taken Michael's advice regarding HIIT and shuffling my macros around (though I did keep protein higher than recommended, I dialed it back a LOT). It's a recent change, so no way to tell the effect yet, but time will tell. Feels decent, but we shall see.
Which program you following, the 3,4 or 5? I am doing the 4.
Amusingly, after comparing my current 5/3/1 OSfS setup, it's nearly identical to the 4 in BLS. The only difference is the way the primary lift progression is structured.
I noticed that too. But I enjoyed the volume a bit more with BLS as compared to the short period of time i was doing 5/3/1. I also like that it varies accessory moves every 8 weeks.
I do that anyway with 5/3/1, depending upon how I feel about the accessories. For my first few cycles, I ran BBB less boring variant, then switched it up to OSfS from 5/3/1 for Powerlifting for now. I'll adjust again whenever I feel it's necessary.0 -
All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.5 -
menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.1 -
menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
@menotyou56 that is awesome how your new way of eating is bringing order to your eating through getting your cravings addressed naturally by you own brains. Best wishes to both of you. I am still learning something about eating for better health daily on MFP since Oct 2014.2 -
menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
But it didn't give you a metabolic advantage. You've just found a way of eating that satisfies you. Which is great! But I do the same with moderation, in the same deficit we will lose the same amount on average over time.2 -
menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's wonderful that you and your wife have found a way to limit your calorie intake to lose weigth. For you, it sounds like keto works wonderfully.
However, the only magic keto or any other diet has is the magic the individual gives it. No matter what diet you do, you still have to consume less calories than you burn to lose weight. The only way around that is a medical condition that needs attention, and none of us need that.1 -
wackyfunster wrote: »There's a simple reason these studies are often contradictory or inconclusive. There is a single nucleotide pair (rs1801282) that determines whether you more efficiently lose weight on a low carb or low fat diet. If you have the low-carb variant, keto will work better for you, and if not then a low-fat diet will work better.
Personally, I have the low-fat variant, so have had only bad experiences with keto/CKD, but on 40g fat/day I can get linear weight loss with ease.
No. The real determining factor of whether keto will work for you is to eat a keto diet. If you can maintain a calorie deficit, it works. If you can't maintain a calorie deficit, it doesn't work.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.2 -
menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.
You clearly have no understand of what CICO actually is or means. It is not a type of diet or lifestyle; please see the thread on what it actually means. You are weighing food and counting calories which means you are trying to make sure Calories In is less than Calories Out. That is CICO.2 -
menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's wonderful that you and your wife have found a way to limit your calorie intake to lose weigth. For you, it sounds like keto works wonderfully.
However, the only magic keto or any other diet has is the magic the individual gives it. No matter what diet you do, you still have to consume less calories than you burn to lose weight. The only way around that is a medical condition that needs attention, and none of us need that.
I am not saying keto is a magic wand that allows me to eat 5000 cals a day as long as its 20 carbs or less LOL. I did stall out for a time a month ago or so on keto so I came back here to MFP and started tracking cals and weighing my 20ish carbs a day or less and then started losing weight again, like I knew I would. We have no disagreement IMO.1 -
menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.
All diets are CICO.. CICO is an over simplication of the energy balance equation. Keto follows CICO, just like all other diets.0 -
menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.
All diets are CICO.. CICO is an over simplication of the energy balance equation. Keto follows CICO, just like all other diets.
^^^This.
And this:
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menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.
CICO is not a way of eating, it is a math formula to determine CI > CO, CI<CO, CI=CO..
if you are doing Keto and lost weight then you figured out CI<CO, congratulations.1 -
CICO being what it is, terrific. Nobody's arguing with math. And congratulations for explaining it too. Because I know that's a favorite pastime at MFP.
But I think what @menotyou56 is saying is that Keto helps regulate his appetite and quell his cravings, making weight loss a pleasure rather than a chore. And makes his success in the long term more likely as a result.
He's not talking about magic wands or suggesting that math is for everybody else but not for him. Get it?
no he was saying that he and his wife cannot stick to CICO and that they failed at CICO many times. which says to me and probably many others is that keto is different than CICO.keto still is CICO, any WOE is some sort of CICO otherwise those trying to lose weight would not lose weight if they were eating more(CI) than they burned(CO).1 -
There may or may not not be a metabolic advantage but I believe there's a psychological one. A lot of people don't stay on their diets because they crave food, and we know carbs stimulate areas of the brain associated with craving and addiction. So while you may not be burning ketones faster than glucose, many people crave food less on a ketogenic diet than on a moderate or high carb one, so it's easier to stick with it. I'm really not one of those people who thinks it's only one way though. If keto works for you, fantastic! If just eating a balanced healthy diet does it for you, also fantastic! If you have trouble with sticking to a healthy diet or losing weight, give keto a try though. It may not work for you but it won't hurt either.0
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There may or may not not be a metabolic advantage but I believe there's a psychological one. A lot of people don't stay on their diets because they crave food, and we know carbs stimulate areas of the brain associated with craving and addiction. So while you may not be burning ketones faster than glucose, many people crave food less on a ketogenic diet than on a moderate or high carb one, so it's easier to stick with it. I'm really not one of those people who thinks it's only one way though. If keto works for you, fantastic! If just eating a balanced healthy diet does it for you, also fantastic! If you have trouble with sticking to a healthy diet or losing weight, give keto a try though. It may not work for you but it won't hurt either.
All delicious food stimulates those areas of the brain. I guess keto would work against that if you don't cook delicious foods but you can bet your butt that my homemade spare ribs make me crave more.4 -
menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet.
Why do you think CICO is a "type of diet"? It simply means that you lose by having calories in less than calories out, which is true with keto as well as other forms of eating.
My belief is that most (not all) who find keto way more satiating were eating a pretty poor diet before, with lots of high cal options, many of which were high fat as well as high carb. I believe this from what people have reported, as well as people claiming to have actually increased vegetables (largely carbs) when going keto, which suggests they were not eating nearly enough before. People often increase protein too, when they could have done that without going keto.
I think often eating a better diet (low carb or none) results in eating fewer calories and finding your diet more satiating.
(I also think some do better with lower carbs, and it often is those who struggle with hunger, so like I said I'm glad you've found something that works. But this is a different topic than the thread topic, really.)0 -
menotyou56 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »menotyou56 wrote: »All I know from personal experience is..my wife and I started on keto January of this year. I'm down 32, she's down 40+. We are both horrible carb junkies and haven't craved candy or ice cream or w/e since week one keto, post low carb flu. We are hardly ever hungry like usual as well, even after exercise.
My wife's BS was at dangerous high levels all the time before keto, now it's normal most of the time. Of course YMMV, but that's been our story so far, We both hope to lose 100lbs by Dec. 31 this year or close to it anyway.
That's great, happy for you.
However, many, many people have also lost lots of weight eating non keto diets. I am one of them.
I don't dispute the fact that a person can lose weight by CICO only. Just that I and my wife cannot stick with that type of diet. I have failed many times on CICO. But I am being successful now with weighting food and counting calories because of the effects that the keto diet gives me. Hunger cut down by two thirds easy, no cravings for junk carbs, candy, soda, etc. So I can hit my goals everyday.
I have no doubt there are folks out there who can diet alone on CICO, more power to them. I however am not one of them.
You're missing the point. No matter what you do, in order to lose weight you are doing CICO. You may not be literally counting those calories, but you are eating at a calorie deficit. Otherwise, you would not lose weight.6 -
stevencloser wrote: »There may or may not not be a metabolic advantage but I believe there's a psychological one. A lot of people don't stay on their diets because they crave food, and we know carbs stimulate areas of the brain associated with craving and addiction. So while you may not be burning ketones faster than glucose, many people crave food less on a ketogenic diet than on a moderate or high carb one, so it's easier to stick with it. I'm really not one of those people who thinks it's only one way though. If keto works for you, fantastic! If just eating a balanced healthy diet does it for you, also fantastic! If you have trouble with sticking to a healthy diet or losing weight, give keto a try though. It may not work for you but it won't hurt either.
All delicious food stimulates those areas of the brain. I guess keto would work against that if you don't cook delicious foods but you can bet your butt that my homemade spare ribs make me crave more.
Amen. Slow roasted lamb shoulder, in various forms of rubbage and marinades is my kryptonite. Would happily eat that fatty cut until close to throwing it up. So keto would be no cigar on the minimising cravings and reducing appetite thing. Also. I like bread and oats. A lot.2
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