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Martial Arts and "chi"
ninerbuff
Posts: 48,988 Member
So I'm a big Star Wars fan and love the "idea" of the Force. Wouldn't it be great to have those powers?
But in martial arts, they've been promoting "chi" for centuries. When I trained as a kid, it was so believable because of the demonstrations they were showing us. And even today, you see demonstrations of it (no touch hit). But scientifically, there's not been any evidence of it.
So why my thread? My DD is enrolled in martial arts because I believe it's a good way to get some physical movement and learn the basics of how to punch and kick correctly (I'll coach her more on self defense techniques). But she told me that they went over "chi" in her class last night and I just smiled because I didn't want to burst her bubble on it. I WILL tell her the truth, last night just wasn't the time.
It's not a measurable thing. There's no evidence it exists. If you as a believer believes it exists, how do you actually prove it?
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But in martial arts, they've been promoting "chi" for centuries. When I trained as a kid, it was so believable because of the demonstrations they were showing us. And even today, you see demonstrations of it (no touch hit). But scientifically, there's not been any evidence of it.
So why my thread? My DD is enrolled in martial arts because I believe it's a good way to get some physical movement and learn the basics of how to punch and kick correctly (I'll coach her more on self defense techniques). But she told me that they went over "chi" in her class last night and I just smiled because I didn't want to burst her bubble on it. I WILL tell her the truth, last night just wasn't the time.
It's not a measurable thing. There's no evidence it exists. If you as a believer believes it exists, how do you actually prove it?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3
Replies
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While not really a believer in "chi" per say, I am a believer in mind over matter (ie, the power of positive attitudes). My understanding of Chi is that it works along similar principles.
There have actually been Studies done on it and all seem to reach the same conclusion, positive thinking/positive attitudes can have a very real and direct effect on a persons overall health and life expectancy. If you dig deeper, there are a ton of studies on the brain and it's ability to effect the body (in both positive and negative ways). So in my head.. I tend to equate the idea of Chi or life force as a way of defining the (still largely mystical) power of our minds.
This article may explain it at a level your DD can understand
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-clear/positive-thinking_b_3512202.html
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I have been in martial arts since I was 7 and have seen masters perform feats that defy reason. I watched our sensei break off the end of a bo in mid-air by channeling his chi. Looking at this physically I can calculate the force required to produce this end, but I cannot fathom how a human could accomplish this. An engineer could attempt to reproduce a robot mimicking the human body to do this, but the staff would break at the mid point.
Speaking as someone in a scientific discipline chock me up as a believer. I cannot explain it as the science has not evolved to the point where it could prove or disprove.0 -
"Chi" if marketed as a mystical power.... is complete bullshido.9
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Oh if you watch Chinese acrobats and stuntmen, watching them get hit by bo staffs full force and not flinch or leaning the tip of a spear with their neck is completely dumbfounding, but I don't believe it has anything to do with an energy force. Not exactly sure how this is attainable, but I'm sure it's practiced over and over again to attain it.I have been in martial arts since I was 7 and have seen masters perform feats that defy reason. I watched our sensei break off the end of a bo in mid-air by channeling his chi. Looking at this physically I can calculate the force required to produce this end, but I cannot fathom how a human could accomplish this. An engineer could attempt to reproduce a robot mimicking the human body to do this, but the staff would break at the mid point.
Speaking as someone in a scientific discipline chock me up as a believer. I cannot explain it as the science has not evolved to the point where it could prove or disprove.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoIcUUnpdec
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@ninerbuff This is where I stand. I don't understand it and it defies my understanding of physics and physiology. I don't believe that this is a mystical energy force, so much as mastery of a physical discipline and tremendous physical conditioning. Very similar to how a professional pitcher can throw a 100+ mph fastball with accuracy.
It would be a fascinating research topic to have a physiologist and physicist conduct an analysis of this. I'll have to see if this hasn't been done before.2 -
Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.1 -
It's probably useful as a metaphor for mental focus, breath, and conditioning, but as some kind of mysterious force pervading our bodies it's all too obviously baloney. You see these effective-looking demonstrations, but strangely, these things only seem to work on the chi master's disciples; i.e., those who he has so conditioned to believe in it that they play along reflexively. Chi techniques tend not to work on anyone else.
What's really sad is when they start to believe their own press releases...
https://youtu.be/gEDaCIDvj6I 3 -
I don't believe in chi, but as a black belt, I fully believe I can back kick someone into oblivion if I had to.8
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It's probably useful as a metaphor for mental focus, breath, and conditioning, but as some kind of mysterious force pervading our bodies it's all too obviously baloney. You see these effective-looking demonstrations, but strangely, these things only seem to work on the chi master's disciples; i.e., those who he has so conditioned to believe in it that they play along reflexively. Chi techniques tend not to work on anyone else.
What's really sad is when they start to believe their own press releases...https://youtu.be/gEDaCIDvj6I
Well that's anticlimatic.1 -
Or when SCAMMERS like this guy use it to promote his crappy way of teaching martial arts:It's probably useful as a metaphor for mental focus, breath, and conditioning, but as some kind of mysterious force pervading our bodies it's all too obviously baloney. You see these effective-looking demonstrations, but strangely, these things only seem to work on the chi master's disciples; i.e., those who he has so conditioned to believe in it that they play along reflexively. Chi techniques tend not to work on anyone else.
What's really sad is when they start to believe their own press releases...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0
George Dillman claims to be a "Master" of manipulating "chi". The only thing I've seen him master manipulate is
"chi"........sburgers.
Lol, what he says at 5:20 is hilarious.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
What martial arts do you practice? Obviously none, or not for very long if you think the stripe, rank or belt system is BS.
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Our energy, our thoughts and our actions area creative. We make our reality, a reality as we go. When it comes to how the mind works we are infants. Every living being on this planet has its own energy.. we can channel that energy into anything we want. Some things are not to be questioned or explained... some things just are.
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cushman5279 wrote: »Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
What martial arts do you practice? Obviously none, or not for very long if you think the stripe, rank or belt system is BS.
No doubt. I worked my a.s.s off for my black belt. It was not easy! I am very proud of my achievement.4 -
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutritioncushman5279 wrote: »Our energy, our thoughts and our actions area creative. We make our reality, a reality as we go. When it comes to how the mind works we are infants. Every living being on this planet has its own energy.. we can channel that energy into anything we want. Some things are not to be questioned or explained... some things just are.
Depends on the discipline. I earned my first black belt in Shorin-Ryu, a very traditional Okinawan style. My sensei incorporated a very adaptive process though, so while our kata and training were traditional, we incorporated "what worked" and adopted techniques from a variety of other styles.
Years later I trained with a Brazilian jui-jitsu master who had no belt system and it worked within that dojo. The promotion system was flattened. There are pros and cons to any structured system.0 -
cushman5279 wrote: »Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
What martial arts do you practice? Obviously none, or not for very long if you think the stripe, rank or belt system is BS.
Do you know the history of belts or stripes? And yes I started studying at a young age and stripes were never part of it. You did not need to earn 3 stripes before going to the next belt. Crap like that is driven by money. And belts were originally used to hold up your pants. Your white belt turned black over time.2 -
Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.1 -
If they just wanted to get your money they could just make you fail the promotion exam on a technicality.0
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Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.3 -
Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
Also do you plan on leaving your dojo as soon as you reach black belt?0 -
The "black belt is a dirty, old white belt" era was a long time ago in if it was ever more than myth. Practically speaking, it all sounds very fanciful, because such belts would smell .cushman5279 wrote: »Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
What martial arts do you practice? Obviously none, or not for very long if you think the stripe, rank or belt system is BS.
Do you know the history of belts or stripes? And yes I started studying at a young age and stripes were never part of it. You did not need to earn 3 stripes before going to the next belt. Crap like that is driven by money. And belts were originally used to hold up your pants. Your white belt turned black over time.
In modern times, I once turned a part of a white belt yellow with sweat after a hard week's training in high summer. Yeuch! Believe me, it was noxious. After that, it went straight in the wash with my gi every night.
Granted, past martial artists may not have had washing machines, but they had a sense of smell, and would have subjected their belts to the same cleaning process as they did their trousers. If trousers and jackets could be kept white and unsmelly, then belts would have been a doddle.
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
So you are saying keep the student engaged so they stay (money)
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HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
So you are saying keep the student engaged so they stay (money)
Do you leave your dojo after getting the black belt and stop practicing?0 -
Yep. Do you have a problem with instructors realising you can't break even from four regular students?HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
So you are saying keep the student engaged so they stay (money)
For that matter, do you have similar objections to music exams and graded swimming classes?
There are also practical benefits to colour belt systems: you can look at a class and know at a glance how much experience everyone attending tonight has and make judgement calls for your next demo.
1 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
So you are saying keep the student engaged so they stay (money)
I'm glad my physician had to earn certain grades to continue with his education. Wouldn't that be the same at least in principal?
2 -
leanjogreen18 wrote: »HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
So you are saying keep the student engaged so they stay (money)
I'm glad my physician had to earn certain grades to continue with his education. Wouldn't that be the same at least in principal?
In principle, yes, but medical schools want you to graduate. Martial arts schools... not necessarily. Some are genuinely interested in doing a good job teaching. Others are in the business of selling colored belts, and would like to sell as many as possible. Often, there's also an escalating fee scale depending on your belt color.0 -
Maybe. Jui Jitsu is basically full combat training for this discipline. If you don't master certain techniques, you don't get the promotion. And while I'm not in exactly the same kind of business, if I kept clients longer, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm making more money unless I free up more time to train new clients.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
I don't think that the earned merits on the belt system are totally money driven. It's an actual honor and meaning having a black belt in jui jitsu.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Ironically, my DD is getting her yellow belt tomorrow in karate. And I have to pay for the promotion. At least they aren't teaching her "chi" knockouts.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 2 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »
Only if the students don't drop out.Chi is complete BS. Learning to accept/ignore or inflict more pain is not a special power. Acquired skill? Absolutely.
Earning stripes on belts is complete BS too. Well so are belts for that matter.
Well, I've been around a lot of jui jitsu dojos and it takes a lot of work to earn a belt promotion. And that promotion doesn't come from katas. You flat out have to prove against a black belt that you have mastered certain techniques before even being considered.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My comment has nothing to due with the time it takes an individual to earn a black belt or the commitment involved. Stripes are about money. The longer it takes to earn a black belt the more money the dojo receives.
An unusual criticism, tbh. Normally I encounter claims that schools grant black belts too early in order to maintain student retention!
Stripes are about breaking down the years of work required into small, achievable targets, I think. Is the word "mini-goal"?
Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt before you can get a coloured belt? Scary. Working your kitten off for six months as a white belt and having tags added to your belt twice before finally getting a new belt? Achievable.
Yeah - McDojos. I was originally going to give him the benefit of the doubt and think that's where he was going with this - just because you have a [insert color here] belt, doesn't necessarily mean you're really a [previous color] belt. Alas, nah.
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I've learned to ask a few simple questions to measure the quality of a dojo. First is the teaching line. If this is not stressed this is a warning sign of a McDojo. Second is the training track. One dojo in our area guarantees a black belt in 3 years. They have loads of students proudly displaying these, but our green belts show greater mastery by comparison. Third is a link to the philosophical aspect of martial science - the only rationale to mastering violence is to abolish it.1
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