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Martial Arts and "chi"
Replies
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I had to experience it. There is no scientific proof. I learned about chi by doing some simple slow progressive chi gong, or Xi gong. These poses and the breathing that goes with movement healed me from a serious back injury that I suffered over 10 years ago. The bonus was I became what I would explain as accutely aware of people, sounds and surroundings yet calmer than I'd been before in my life. Experiencing the flow of Xi is interesting as well as healing. If you need science, I understand that. To add more of my experience; it happened that I did aquire greater strength and faster reflexes, but not in the powerful way some of the more sensational methods it is used. Its not difficult to do xigong and for a woman of my age, or any age, the ability to practice slow movement xi gong for longevity and keeping fit is beneficial. I think recent hype on the subject is probably misguided and an attempt to encourage people to try to gain some almost spiritual sense of power from an ancient way of life.0
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hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Energy has units too. What is the Unit of Measure for this form of energy?Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
Biological mechanisms that lower resting heart rate and respiration rate are well known. They are not some magic esoteric energy.For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Again the biological mechanisms by which training improves performance are well understood by science, so can you point me to some scientific literature that is peer reviewed which can prove your assertion?Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
You learned that good form helps you apply force in a more efficient manner because human beings are subject to all the rules of physics.Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
Then please tell me what device measures it, and in what units.However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.
None of that proves that "chi" exists any more than proving that someone who has practiced for a lifetime at anything will be better at it than a casual amateur. I guarantee you that if I go to a random bar in Nashville I can find someone who's able to play the violin. I also guarantee you they will not be as good at it as Itzhak Perlman, and it has nothing to do with "chi".
So, obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say so this will be my very last attempt, put as simply as possible.
For the THIRD time, ch'i is NOT MAGIC
Ch'i IS A WORD.
This word is used to describe the circulatory system, respiratory system, endocrine system, nervous system, muscular system. It is physiology and physics - IT IS NOT MAGIC.
It is completely measurable - you can measure hormone levels, heart rate, respiration, blood oxygen content, etc... IT IS NOT MAGIC
What is so difficult for you to understand about this? You're all kinds of hung-up on this being some magical power or something brand new in the body when it's absolutely not. It's a Chinese term for these things that already happen in your body and in nature. People who say otherwise are trying to sell you something.
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?I had to experience it. There is no scientific proof. I learned about chi by doing some simple slow progressive chi gong, or Xi gong. These poses and the breathing that goes with movement healed me from a serious back injury that I suffered over 10 years ago. The bonus was I became what I would explain as accutely aware of people, sounds and surroundings yet calmer than I'd been before in my life. Experiencing the flow of Xi is interesting as well as healing. If you need science, I understand that. To add more of my experience; it happened that I did aquire greater strength and faster reflexes, but not in the powerful way some of the more sensational methods it is used. Its not difficult to do xigong and for a woman of my age, or any age, the ability to practice slow movement xi gong for longevity and keeping fit is beneficial. I think recent hype on the subject is probably misguided and an attempt to encourage people to try to gain some almost spiritual sense of power from an ancient way of life.
Physical therapy works on many types of back injuries. Activity and stretching are good for people, as are body weight exercises and working the joints. The biomechanical processes by which they work are understood by science. The "flow of Xi" part, however, is entirely in your own mind.1 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
YES! That's basically it.
This is something that Westerners have a tendency of doing to make it sound all mystical. Really great con men, like George Dillman, use this to improve their own quality of life and it's got nothing at all to do with ch'i... Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into this trap. So many of us want these magical and mystical things to be true that it makes for an easy sale.
Some of these people charge outrageous amounts of money for tuition for these schools. It's appalling. I knew a guy who had a simple dojo with a ton of students... and made enough money to not only fund his business and personal expenses, but also two houses, nice cars, extravagant vacations, etc... Not that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time, but something like that is excessive. I've thought about opening a dojo several times over the past 10 years or so, but it's hard to do with a family. If I were to do such a thing, I would keep my full-time job and only use the student's fees to cover the expenses of the business itself. I don't believe in obtaining excessive profit from this art form. I see some schools charging upwards of $200/person/month which is absurd! Sorry for the little rant, I hate to see people exploit this art that I have a great love and respect for.0 -
hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
YES! That's basically it.
This is something that Westerners have a tendency of doing to make it sound all mystical. Really great con men, like George Dillman, use this to improve their own quality of life and it's got nothing at all to do with ch'i... Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into this trap. So many of us want these magical and mystical things to be true that it makes for an easy sale.
Some of these people charge outrageous amounts of money for tuition for these schools. It's appalling. I knew a guy who had a simple dojo with a ton of students... and made enough money to not only fund his business and personal expenses, but also two houses, nice cars, extravagant vacations, etc... Not that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time, but something like that is excessive. I've thought about opening a dojo several times over the past 10 years or so, but it's hard to do with a family. If I were to do such a thing, I would keep my full-time job and only use the student's fees to cover the expenses of the business itself. I don't believe in obtaining excessive profit from this art form. I see some schools charging upwards of $200/person/month which is absurd! Sorry for the little rant, I hate to see people exploit this art that I have a great love and respect for.
Then why do you talk about chi instead of saying "Work hard, train well, get yourself into good physical shape, build strength and stamina."?0 -
(parts of quoted matter snipped for length)
heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »So, obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say so this will be my very last attempt, put as simply as possible.
For the THIRD time, ch'i is NOT MAGIC
Ch'i IS A WORD.
This word is used to describe the circulatory system, respiratory system, endocrine system, nervous system, muscular system. It is physiology and physics - IT IS NOT MAGIC.
It is completely measurable - you can measure hormone levels, heart rate, respiration, blood oxygen content, etc... IT IS NOT MAGIC
What is so difficult for you to understand about this? You're all kinds of hung-up on this being some magical power or something brand new in the body when it's absolutely not. It's a Chinese term for these things that already happen in your body and in nature. People who say otherwise are trying to sell you something.
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
Certain martial arts have their genesis in cultures different from our own. If you want to learn those arts from traditional practitioners, you will need to listen patiently to explanations in the (pre-scientific) terms that have been the conceptual framework for transmitting those arts for generations.
If you don't want to listen patiently to those explanations, you don't have to. But then you won't learn those arts from traditional practitioners.
It's possible to understand the conceptual framework - to reframe it - in scientific terms. Some younger traditional practitioners make this translation for students on the fly. Some don't. All of the skilled practitioners I've encountered teach the physical skills in physical ways. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I've never met someone who understands the physical skills well, but who never uses traditional terminology in abstract description of some aspect of it.
At the same time, there are non-traditional practitioners who cut and paste techniques from a variety of arts, using the chi terminology to obfuscate and mystify. Those people exploit the traditional terminology as the shell in their shell game to sell people a pile of syncretistic woo.
Chi and the related terminology, to me, is part of a complex, abstract, conceptual framework. It is not precisely "good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina". It's not a simple synonym for any familiar term. It shares the underpinnings with traditional Chinese medicine . . . which itself works for a few things (not all things for which it's used - I'm a skeptic) in ways that are difficult to pin down.
For my understanding, "energy flow" comes the closest to "chi". But sometimes it's mechanical energy, sometimes it's electrical/biochemical (neurological), sometimes it's circulatory, sometimes it's used in describing force vectors that result from compound physical movements (you may hear something like "putting your chi in the tip of the sword"). It's an abstraction in a different conceptual paradigm.
Some of us are willing to wade through the unfamiliar paradigm and tolerate some pre-scientific aspects of it, in order to learn physical, completely non-mystical things we want to learn about.
You seem to think we should either not want to learn these physical things because someone mentions chi, or that we should argue with the traditional practitioners who use the terminology (which will result in our not learning the physical skills).
Feel free to make that choice yourself. And I can't stop you from considering anyone foolish who makes a different choice.6 -
It's either ch'i in strict Wade-Giles romanization, or qi in pinyin. There are no romanizations where it's spelled "xi". In pinyin, "x" denotes a different sound altogether, the one romanized "hs" in Wade-Giles.I had to experience it. There is no scientific proof. I learned about chi by doing some simple slow progressive chi gong, or Xi gong.
But I'm glad to know you benefit from the exercise you're getting.hdrenollet wrote: »This is something that Westerners have a tendency of doing to make it sound all mystical.
Don't go blaming "Westerners" for that. There are contexts where qi is something all mystical even in its native environment. The entire theory behind acupuncture is its mystical sense, as is its application in other forms of TCM. (Which, as @AnnPT77 notes, does occasionally work, but not for the reasons they say.)
And we've all seen the non-Western mumbo-jumbo masters. I'm reasonably confident that wasn't a Western re-export.
I don't know why you took so long to expressly agree with those of us who have been saying it's a useful metaphor at times, but it's good you clarified.1 -
(parts of quoted matter snipped for length)
heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »So, obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say so this will be my very last attempt, put as simply as possible.
For the THIRD time, ch'i is NOT MAGIC
Ch'i IS A WORD.
This word is used to describe the circulatory system, respiratory system, endocrine system, nervous system, muscular system. It is physiology and physics - IT IS NOT MAGIC.
It is completely measurable - you can measure hormone levels, heart rate, respiration, blood oxygen content, etc... IT IS NOT MAGIC
What is so difficult for you to understand about this? You're all kinds of hung-up on this being some magical power or something brand new in the body when it's absolutely not. It's a Chinese term for these things that already happen in your body and in nature. People who say otherwise are trying to sell you something.
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
If you don't want to listen patiently to those explanations, you don't have to. But then you won't learn those arts from traditional practitioners.
It's the actual moves that are important, not so much whatever lore they're surrounded in.Chi and the related terminology, to me, is part of a complex, abstract, conceptual framework. It is not precisely "good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina". It's not a simple synonym for any familiar term. It shares the underpinnings with traditional Chinese medicine . . . which itself works for a few things (not all things for which it's used - I'm a skeptic) in ways that are difficult to pin down.
Traditional medicine that has been proven to work is just called medicine.Some of us are willing to wade through the unfamiliar paradigm and tolerate some pre-scientific aspects of it, in order to learn physical, completely non-mystical things we want to learn about.
I have a low tolerance for myths.You seem to think we should either not want to learn these physical things because someone mentions chi, or that we should argue with the traditional practitioners who use the terminology (which will result in our not learning the physical skills).
If you want to pretend you believe in it, that's fine. There are millions who do that in churches and temples around the world.Feel free to make that choice yourself. And I can't stop you from considering anyone foolish who makes a different choice.
I suppose I would be better suited to learning hand to hand combat in a way that is more suited to my lack of tolerance for woo.1 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Energy has units too. What is the Unit of Measure for this form of energy?Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
Biological mechanisms that lower resting heart rate and respiration rate are well known. They are not some magic esoteric energy.For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Again the biological mechanisms by which training improves performance are well understood by science, so can you point me to some scientific literature that is peer reviewed which can prove your assertion?Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
You learned that good form helps you apply force in a more efficient manner because human beings are subject to all the rules of physics.Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
Then please tell me what device measures it, and in what units.However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.
None of that proves that "chi" exists any more than proving that someone who has practiced for a lifetime at anything will be better at it than a casual amateur. I guarantee you that if I go to a random bar in Nashville I can find someone who's able to play the violin. I also guarantee you they will not be as good at it as Itzhak Perlman, and it has nothing to do with "chi".
So, obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say so this will be my very last attempt, put as simply as possible.
For the THIRD time, ch'i is NOT MAGIC
Ch'i IS A WORD.
This word is used to describe the circulatory system, respiratory system, endocrine system, nervous system, muscular system. It is physiology and physics - IT IS NOT MAGIC.
It is completely measurable - you can measure hormone levels, heart rate, respiration, blood oxygen content, etc... IT IS NOT MAGIC
What is so difficult for you to understand about this? You're all kinds of hung-up on this being some magical power or something brand new in the body when it's absolutely not. It's a Chinese term for these things that already happen in your body and in nature. People who say otherwise are trying to sell you something.
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?I had to experience it. There is no scientific proof. I learned about chi by doing some simple slow progressive chi gong, or Xi gong. These poses and the breathing that goes with movement healed me from a serious back injury that I suffered over 10 years ago. The bonus was I became what I would explain as accutely aware of people, sounds and surroundings yet calmer than I'd been before in my life. Experiencing the flow of Xi is interesting as well as healing. If you need science, I understand that. To add more of my experience; it happened that I did aquire greater strength and faster reflexes, but not in the powerful way some of the more sensational methods it is used. Its not difficult to do xigong and for a woman of my age, or any age, the ability to practice slow movement xi gong for longevity and keeping fit is beneficial. I think recent hype on the subject is probably misguided and an attempt to encourage people to try to gain some almost spiritual sense of power from an ancient way of life.
Physical therapy works on many types of back injuries. Activity and stretching are good for people, as are body weight exercises and working the joints. The biomechanical processes by which they work are understood by science. The "flow of Xi" part, however, is entirely in your own mind.
Yes, thats what I said, maybe you didn't read it, basically that Some people try to use it as a spiritual sense of power to be used, which I disagree with, its not magic or mystical. Sorry if my words weren't clear enough. CHigong and the breathing excersizes and the stretching included worked really well to heal my back, including strength, awareness of my surroundings, I guess you could call it clarity or balance. Certainly a positive attitude, the belief that you can heal is a good thing.
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THanks AnnPT77 for putting it so well.0
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heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
YES! That's basically it.
This is something that Westerners have a tendency of doing to make it sound all mystical. Really great con men, like George Dillman, use this to improve their own quality of life and it's got nothing at all to do with ch'i... Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into this trap. So many of us want these magical and mystical things to be true that it makes for an easy sale.
Some of these people charge outrageous amounts of money for tuition for these schools. It's appalling. I knew a guy who had a simple dojo with a ton of students... and made enough money to not only fund his business and personal expenses, but also two houses, nice cars, extravagant vacations, etc... Not that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time, but something like that is excessive. I've thought about opening a dojo several times over the past 10 years or so, but it's hard to do with a family. If I were to do such a thing, I would keep my full-time job and only use the student's fees to cover the expenses of the business itself. I don't believe in obtaining excessive profit from this art form. I see some schools charging upwards of $200/person/month which is absurd! Sorry for the little rant, I hate to see people exploit this art that I have a great love and respect for.
Then why do you talk about chi instead of saying "Work hard, train well, get yourself into good physical shape, build strength and stamina."?
In a way this last sentence explains "why chi"?
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heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »
So "chi" is nothing more than a foreign language word you use to mean good cardiovascular health and conditioned stamina?
Why obfuscate it by trying to make it sound all mystical?
YES! That's basically it.
This is something that Westerners have a tendency of doing to make it sound all mystical. Really great con men, like George Dillman, use this to improve their own quality of life and it's got nothing at all to do with ch'i... Unfortunately, a lot of people fall into this trap. So many of us want these magical and mystical things to be true that it makes for an easy sale.
Some of these people charge outrageous amounts of money for tuition for these schools. It's appalling. I knew a guy who had a simple dojo with a ton of students... and made enough money to not only fund his business and personal expenses, but also two houses, nice cars, extravagant vacations, etc... Not that people don't deserve to be compensated for their time, but something like that is excessive. I've thought about opening a dojo several times over the past 10 years or so, but it's hard to do with a family. If I were to do such a thing, I would keep my full-time job and only use the student's fees to cover the expenses of the business itself. I don't believe in obtaining excessive profit from this art form. I see some schools charging upwards of $200/person/month which is absurd! Sorry for the little rant, I hate to see people exploit this art that I have a great love and respect for.
Then why do you talk about chi instead of saying "Work hard, train well, get yourself into good physical shape, build strength and stamina."?
In a way this last sentence explains "why chi"?
Because there is also a mental, emotional, or psychological component to chi.
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As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.0 -
As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
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I generally don't engage either, and I have to question why I have been more active at the discussions here the last few days.stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
Yes, sometimes things do work that I haven't understood and qigong is for sure, one of those things.
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stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.0 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
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I just want to see Jake Mace actually fight....................unchoreographed.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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ha ha0
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stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?0 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
since we're talking about fighting arts or sport. "heart" "spirit", call it what you will.
It's not measureable or reducible. And when you start carving on it, you end up carving out an important part that doesn't look important.
It's why the bigger, stronger, faster, fighter doesn't always win. See Ronda Rousey for details... Same holds true for horse racing. It's not mathematically determinate.1 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
Mental clarity. Insight. Enthusiasm. Character. Beauty. Intelligence. And a whole bunch of other abstractions. Yes, these have subcomponents or implications or manifestations that can be measured, just as does the abstraction chi. But it's silly reductionism to try to measure the abstractions directly.
I'm not saying these other things are synonyms for chi - not in the slightest.
I'm saying that you're trying to make the word fit into the realm of the fully concrete. Many abstractions don't do that, but we use them all the time in language. Lots of words (not just complex abstractions) don't represent things that are measurable, yet we still find the words useful for communication.
Many things that some traditional martial-arts practitioners describe using lots of language, some of which includes that scary word "chi", can be measured in terms of force, or reaction time (reflex activation, etc.), or via other tidy quantitative means. These folks also teach via physical demonstrations. They use other terms that can't be measured, too, like "twisting", "rooted", "commitment", etc., etc. . . . but I suspect those aren't as scary. And those terms, too, aren't magic, even though you can't measure them in a practical way without absurd reductionism.
I know I'm not going to change your mind. You (presumably) know you won't change my mind. Perhaps we can leave it to the reader to decide which of us, or both, is being more dogmatic.
5 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
Mental clarity. Insight. Enthusiasm. Character. Beauty. Intelligence. And a whole bunch of other abstractions. Yes, these have subcomponents or implications or manifestations that can be measured, just as does the abstraction chi. But it's silly reductionism to try to measure the abstractions directly.
I'm not saying these other things are synonyms for chi - not in the slightest.
I'm saying that you're trying to make the word fit into the realm of the fully concrete. Many abstractions don't do that, but we use them all the time in language. Lots of words (not just complex abstractions) don't represent things that are measurable, yet we still find the words useful for communication.
Many things that some traditional martial-arts practitioners describe using lots of language, some of which includes that scary word "chi", can be measured in terms of force, or reaction time (reflex activation, etc.), or via other tidy quantitative means. These folks also teach via physical demonstrations. They use other terms that can't be measured, too, like "twisting", "rooted", "commitment", etc., etc. . . . but I suspect those aren't as scary. And those terms, too, aren't magic, even though you can't measure them in a practical way without absurd reductionism.
I know I'm not going to change your mind. You (presumably) know you won't change my mind. Perhaps we can leave it to the reader to decide which of us, or both, is being more dogmatic.
Scary?
No.
Completely ludicrous. There is no such thing as "chi". Everything you're talking about is neurochemical and neuroelectrical activity in the brain. No magic, no woo, no mysticism. Me knowing that and rejecting the assertion of "chi" does not make me "scared". I would similarly reject the entire concept if it was described as an infinitesimally small pink unicorn that lives inside the navel. Doesn't mean I'm afraid of unicorns.0 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
Mental clarity. Insight. Enthusiasm. Character. Beauty. Intelligence. And a whole bunch of other abstractions. Yes, these have subcomponents or implications or manifestations that can be measured, just as does the abstraction chi. But it's silly reductionism to try to measure the abstractions directly.
I'm not saying these other things are synonyms for chi - not in the slightest.
I'm saying that you're trying to make the word fit into the realm of the fully concrete. Many abstractions don't do that, but we use them all the time in language. Lots of words (not just complex abstractions) don't represent things that are measurable, yet we still find the words useful for communication.
Many things that some traditional martial-arts practitioners describe using lots of language, some of which includes that scary word "chi", can be measured in terms of force, or reaction time (reflex activation, etc.), or via other tidy quantitative means. These folks also teach via physical demonstrations. They use other terms that can't be measured, too, like "twisting", "rooted", "commitment", etc., etc. . . . but I suspect those aren't as scary. And those terms, too, aren't magic, even though you can't measure them in a practical way without absurd reductionism.
I know I'm not going to change your mind. You (presumably) know you won't change my mind. Perhaps we can leave it to the reader to decide which of us, or both, is being more dogmatic.
Scary?
No.
Completely ludicrous. There is no such thing as "chi". Everything you're talking about is neurochemical and neuroelectrical activity in the brain. No magic, no woo, no mysticism. Me knowing that and rejecting the assertion of "chi" does not make me "scared". I would similarly reject the entire concept if it was described as an infinitesimally small pink unicorn that lives inside the navel. Doesn't mean I'm afraid of unicorns.
I have to say that although I agree with you on the most basic level, if you think your objections intersect with anything anyone said since I last posted to this thread, you've probably missed the point.3 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
Mental clarity. Insight. Enthusiasm. Character. Beauty. Intelligence. And a whole bunch of other abstractions. Yes, these have subcomponents or implications or manifestations that can be measured, just as does the abstraction chi. But it's silly reductionism to try to measure the abstractions directly.
I'm not saying these other things are synonyms for chi - not in the slightest.
I'm saying that you're trying to make the word fit into the realm of the fully concrete. Many abstractions don't do that, but we use them all the time in language. Lots of words (not just complex abstractions) don't represent things that are measurable, yet we still find the words useful for communication.
Many things that some traditional martial-arts practitioners describe using lots of language, some of which includes that scary word "chi", can be measured in terms of force, or reaction time (reflex activation, etc.), or via other tidy quantitative means. These folks also teach via physical demonstrations. They use other terms that can't be measured, too, like "twisting", "rooted", "commitment", etc., etc. . . . but I suspect those aren't as scary. And those terms, too, aren't magic, even though you can't measure them in a practical way without absurd reductionism.
I know I'm not going to change your mind. You (presumably) know you won't change my mind. Perhaps we can leave it to the reader to decide which of us, or both, is being more dogmatic.
Scary?
No.
Completely ludicrous. There is no such thing as "chi". Everything you're talking about is neurochemical and neuroelectrical activity in the brain. No magic, no woo, no mysticism. Me knowing that and rejecting the assertion of "chi" does not make me "scared". I would similarly reject the entire concept if it was described as an infinitesimally small pink unicorn that lives inside the navel. Doesn't mean I'm afraid of unicorns.
I have to say that although I agree with you on the most basic level, if you think your objections intersect with anything anyone said since I last posted to this thread, you've probably missed the point.
The assertion that I find the word chi "scary" was directly made in the post I responded to.1 -
I've studied for over 40 years. I saw a lot of great Masters when I was in Japan. I saw a lot of fantastic movement and abilities. But, I never saw anyone practice "mind over matter".
By the way, someone mentioned the belt smelling? I got my first Black Belt in 1976. In Okinawa. Still have it. Never washed it. It DOES smell. Bought a new one in 1994, because it was so worn I was afraid I would ruin it.3 -
heiliskrimsli wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »As to the spelling, I was taught by my instructor that it is Qi, and therefore in my practice it was Qigong. Sorry for the sloppiness. I
I agree stanmann571 that Qi is more than physical strength and being in shape. I was being a little sarcastic in my post directed at heilskrimsli "why chi?'" I apologize again for not using precision clarity in my posts.
I understood that you got it, I just wanted to spell it out for the haters/doubters.
As a practitioner/participant in systema (a Russian system/framework) which seeks to answer at least some of the questions, but still acknowledges that sometimes "we don't fully understand why this works this way" but it does. I generally don't even bother engaging... because I have a very low tolerance for woo... but some things work whether you understand them or not. And developing calm/relaxed dynamic tension in applying force is one of them.
"I don't understand this" and "This is magic" are not the same thing.
You're the only one asserting that it's magic.
I've asked how it can be measured and in what units and been given no answer. What that isn't magic cannot be measured?
Mental clarity. Insight. Enthusiasm. Character. Beauty. Intelligence. And a whole bunch of other abstractions. Yes, these have subcomponents or implications or manifestations that can be measured, just as does the abstraction chi. But it's silly reductionism to try to measure the abstractions directly.
I'm not saying these other things are synonyms for chi - not in the slightest.
I'm saying that you're trying to make the word fit into the realm of the fully concrete. Many abstractions don't do that, but we use them all the time in language. Lots of words (not just complex abstractions) don't represent things that are measurable, yet we still find the words useful for communication.
Many things that some traditional martial-arts practitioners describe using lots of language, some of which includes that scary word "chi", can be measured in terms of force, or reaction time (reflex activation, etc.), or via other tidy quantitative means. These folks also teach via physical demonstrations. They use other terms that can't be measured, too, like "twisting", "rooted", "commitment", etc., etc. . . . but I suspect those aren't as scary. And those terms, too, aren't magic, even though you can't measure them in a practical way without absurd reductionism.
I know I'm not going to change your mind. You (presumably) know you won't change my mind. Perhaps we can leave it to the reader to decide which of us, or both, is being more dogmatic.
Scary?
No.
Completely ludicrous. There is no such thing as "chi". Everything you're talking about is neurochemical and neuroelectrical activity in the brain. No magic, no woo, no mysticism. Me knowing that and rejecting the assertion of "chi" does not make me "scared". I would similarly reject the entire concept if it was described as an infinitesimally small pink unicorn that lives inside the navel. Doesn't mean I'm afraid of unicorns.
I have to say that although I agree with you on the most basic level, if you think your objections intersect with anything anyone said since I last posted to this thread, you've probably missed the point.
The assertion that I find the word chi "scary" was directly made in the post I responded to.
I think the kids say "triggering" now, to mean "scary" in the sense Ann meant it.2 -
No, I don't think "mind over matter" explains chi or could be in any way synonomous with chi.0
-
Chi could be harmful in excess amounts blocked; and therefore be called 'scary'.
0 -
Was this you?TheRoadDog wrote: »I've studied for over 40 years. I saw a lot of great Masters when I was in Japan. I saw a lot of fantastic movement and abilities. But, I never saw anyone practice "mind over matter".
By the way, someone mentioned the belt smelling? I got my first Black Belt in 1976. In Okinawa. Still have it. Never washed it. It DOES smell. Bought a new one in 1994, because it was so worn I was afraid I would ruin it.
Sorry. Could not resist that.
Credits to this deviantart user: http://edd-xsagi.deviantart.com/art/Skunk-fu-Master-skunk-157488256
who was inspired by the Skunk Fu! children's show.
If you should encounter such a problem again, I suggest Zoflora and very, very gently handwashing it!
0
This discussion has been closed.
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