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Martial Arts and "chi"
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So I'm a big Star Wars fan and love the "idea" of the Force. Wouldn't it be great to have those powers?
But in martial arts, they've been promoting "chi" for centuries. When I trained as a kid, it was so believable because of the demonstrations they were showing us. And even today, you see demonstrations of it (no touch hit). But scientifically, there's not been any evidence of it.
So why my thread? My DD is enrolled in martial arts because I believe it's a good way to get some physical movement and learn the basics of how to punch and kick correctly (I'll coach her more on self defense techniques). But she told me that they went over "chi" in her class last night and I just smiled because I didn't want to burst her bubble on it. I WILL tell her the truth, last night just wasn't the time.
It's not a measurable thing. There's no evidence it exists. If you as a believer believes it exists, how do you actually prove it?
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I know I'm a little late to the game, but I came across this post when I was searching for some Martial Arts threads so I figured I'd chime in
I've been in the Martial Arts world for almost 25 years now, and though I'm far from being an expert, I have learned a few things over the years.
To answer your question, ch'i (qi or ki in Japanese) is a real thing that all living things possess. I won't go into a lot of detail, but the best way to think of it is a natural, internal flow of energy throughout one's body. Every living thing has it. It's not some magical force that you can use to knock someone out without touching them.
That being said, there are some forms of Martial Arts that focus very intently on specific movements, positions, and techniques which allow for energy to flow more effectively through one's body, thus generating more force in something like a strike.
Even though I believe this energy to be a very real "thing", it's completely wrong in my opinion to even discuss such a topic with young students and provide false hope of some "mystical powers" that they will never obtain.2 -
hdrenollet wrote: »To answer your question, ch'i (qi or ki in Japanese) is a real thing that all living things possess. I won't go into a lot of detail, but the best way to think of it is a natural, internal flow of energy throughout one's body. Every living thing has it. It's not some magical force that you can use to knock someone out without touching them.
What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?2 -
Chi is energy. I believe in chi like I believe we all have souls everything is made up of energy. Whatever you call it there is something there you can tap into when you need it to get you though hard times, to give you strength when you are ready to give up. Different cultures call it different things.1
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heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.4 -
So.... Your test for chi involves getting punched by someone who has no idea what he's doing, compare to someone who has been practicing punching for 40 years? With or without chi, I can think of one good explanation for the difference right away.
Oddly, we can detect the endocrine system without punching anyone at all.0 -
But scientifically it can't be measured, so just like a religion, it's based on faith. Like most faith based beliefs, people will have their own interpretations, subjective views and in the martial arts world, a lot of scamming to sell more memberships.Chi is energy. I believe in chi like I believe we all have souls everything is made up of energy. Whatever you call it there is something there you can tap into when you need it to get you though hard times, to give you strength when you are ready to give up. Different cultures call it different things.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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But chi as described by many "masters" state that it can be disrupted and manipulated to weaken your opponent. Which I find laughable (especially with guys like Dillman). I will say that if any individual hones their skill with the utmost discipline, there's no doubt that they may seem that they can do amazing things that the general public can't do.hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.
More "chi" videos though because I like watching how people meet "reality" when they try to use it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSFk_HfLfVU
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Energy has units too. What is the Unit of Measure for this form of energy?Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
Biological mechanisms that lower resting heart rate and respiration rate are well known. They are not some magic esoteric energy.For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Again the biological mechanisms by which training improves performance are well understood by science, so can you point me to some scientific literature that is peer reviewed which can prove your assertion?Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
You learned that good form helps you apply force in a more efficient manner because human beings are subject to all the rules of physics.Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
Then please tell me what device measures it, and in what units.However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.
None of that proves that "chi" exists any more than proving that someone who has practiced for a lifetime at anything will be better at it than a casual amateur. I guarantee you that if I go to a random bar in Nashville I can find someone who's able to play the violin. I also guarantee you they will not be as good at it as Itzhak Perlman, and it has nothing to do with "chi".
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Or, it's a metaphor/abstraction. It would be unusual to attempt to quantify a metaphor. Certainly, the concept's genesis was in a pre-scientific era, when things like the endocrine system were unknown. But metaphors can be useful to understanding, even when not physically instantiated. It's common in many practices (and indeed in daily life) to use conceptualizations of things that aren't scientifically accurate, but that are useful in their place.
"Did you see the sun rise this morning?"
I'm a science-loving kind of a gal, but I don't feel the need to argue every time someone asks me that question.2 -
I'm a science-loving kind of a gal, but I don't feel the need to argue every time someone asks me that question.
I should hope not. But then, you understand that nearly anyone who tells you the Sun rises understands themselves that it only appears that way from a certain point of view, and isn't insisting the Sun is actually revolving around the Earth.
@hdrenollet might be speaking metaphorically, but it's really hard to tell.0 -
I'm a science-loving kind of a gal, but I don't feel the need to argue every time someone asks me that question.
I should hope not. But then, you understand that nearly anyone who tells you the Sun rises understands themselves that it only appears that way from a certain point of view, and isn't insisting the Sun is actually revolving around the Earth.
@hdrenollet might be speaking metaphorically, but it's really hard to tell.
Couldn't agree more.
I'm being a tiny bit disputatious just because I think rationalists (and I count myself as one) can be very quick to dismiss any mention of chi as woo. Admittedly, it usually is, especially in the West. However, there are some traditional martial arts that you're not going to study, even with people who are VeryVery good at them, unless you can find a way not to break out in hives when someone mentions chi. Some quite-interesting physical phenomena are most often described by traditionalists in terms of chi, meridians, etc.
I'm not stupid enough to believe that these are necessarily the best, beat-all-comers martial arts, but some are worthwhile, teaching some very interesting things. OTOH, chi is a favorite pet of some new-age-y supposed martial artists who really have nothing to offer, other than some vague ideas about getting in tune with the universe. Caveat emptor, and all that.
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Some quite-interesting physical phenomena are most often described by traditionalists in terms of chi, meridians, etc.
My own first response to this thread was to the effect that it might be a useful metaphor, so I don't disagree with the main point. But I don't know what physical phenomena you might have in mind here.0 -
Some quite-interesting physical phenomena are most often described by traditionalists in terms of chi, meridians, etc.
My own first response to this thread was to the effect that it might be a useful metaphor, so I don't disagree with the main point. But I don't know what physical phenomena you might have in mind here.
I'm not any kind of an expert, but I can describe one type in very general terms. There are some pretty cute body tricks that involve using pressure points (I think there's some kind of nerve plexus, but I'm not a good anatomist either) and reflexes. I'm not saying these are necessarily useful in free-range fighting scenarios, but they're interesting physical phenomena - the sort of thing that made martial arts study intellectually interesting for me.
For example, there's a take-down in which you press into a pressure point on the shoulder near the collarbone, and simultaneously stroke the back (hamstring area) of someone's leg (not very hard) . . . and they just kind of magically fall down. In demos, it makes 'victims' laugh with surprise - it doesn't hurt at all, unless you're hurt by the falling. I see no magic happening here at all, purely physical, exploiting normal behavior of the body. It's not cued; people who are good at it can do it to someone who doesn't know what's going to happen.
The traditional explanations of something like this usually involve meridians (acupressure/acupuncture points), disruption of chi, that sort of thing. A 'Western' explanation would presumably involve nerves and reflexes. One of my most knowledgeable instructors - older Taiwanese guy who was science-y (geology, not biology) and had lived in the US for 20+ years - sometimes shifted fluidly between the traditional explanations and anatomical/physiological ones.0 -
The traditional explanations of something like this usually involve meridians (acupressure/acupuncture points), disruption of chi, that sort of thing. A 'Western' explanation would presumably involve nerves and reflexes. One of my most knowledgeable instructors - older Taiwanese guy who was science-y (geology, not biology) and had lived in the US for 20+ years - sometimes shifted fluidly between the traditional explanations and anatomical/physiological ones.
Well, OK. But one of those explanations is right, and one of them is objectively wrong on its face as it relies on things that don't actually exist. To insist on fantasy explanations is more than a little foolish when we have perfectly good genuine explanations available.0 -
The traditional explanations of something like this usually involve meridians (acupressure/acupuncture points), disruption of chi, that sort of thing. A 'Western' explanation would presumably involve nerves and reflexes. One of my most knowledgeable instructors - older Taiwanese guy who was science-y (geology, not biology) and had lived in the US for 20+ years - sometimes shifted fluidly between the traditional explanations and anatomical/physiological ones.
Well, OK. But one of those explanations is right, and one of them is objectively wrong on its face as it relies on things that don't actually exist. To insist on fantasy explanations is more than a little foolish when we have perfectly good genuine explanations available.
I still see it as more as metaphorical in this era - the traditional way of talking about it, one that's well-understood in its home culture, standing in parallel to the more literal and scientifically accurate construct . . . much like the "sun rising" idea. For sure, I'm not gonna argue with rhetorical approach of the (expert) guy describing how to do the physical tricks: That's a total waste of time.0 -
Sure, it can be metaphorical in that sense. But I think we've covered the problems with that ad nauseum here: Students don't necessarily take it as metaphorical and start thinking of it as a real thing. And then the hucksters come in and sell it as the mystical powers fraud. That never happens when we talk about the Sun rising.
And then we have the whole acupuncture nonsense that absolutely takes it as a real thing. The last thing we need in health care is to encourage more of that.0 -
The traditional explanations of something like this usually involve meridians (acupressure/acupuncture points), disruption of chi, that sort of thing. A 'Western' explanation would presumably involve nerves and reflexes. One of my most knowledgeable instructors - older Taiwanese guy who was science-y (geology, not biology) and had lived in the US for 20+ years - sometimes shifted fluidly between the traditional explanations and anatomical/physiological ones.
Well, OK. But one of those explanations is right, and one of them is objectively wrong on its face as it relies on things that don't actually exist. To insist on fantasy explanations is more than a little foolish when we have perfectly good genuine explanations available.
That's what I don't get. The science is fascinating itself, and factually correct. Its infinitely more interesting to me that we figured out the actual mechanics of how this works, and can explain and prove what they are.
The "magic force" thing is just boring in comparison to the facts.0 -
Be honest here: have you ever had to put your skill to the test in a real fight? I did a few times as a kid and let's say it was kinda of awkward because I was expecting it to really work. Both fights went to the ground pretty quick and I was a decent wrestler so I succeeded.
That's why I want to study jiu-jitsu once I have some money to spend on it. With a side of some striking art, maybe boxing or taekwondo.1 -
I've learned the very basics of it and one of the most humbling things is to practice with someone who's well versed. I was busting my *kitten* to take this guy down and side mount him and all the while he was talking to someone beside him (regular conversation) and not even breaking a sweat. He was so ready with counter moves and read my mind on my next move like it was a script.Be honest here: have you ever had to put your skill to the test in a real fight? I did a few times as a kid and let's say it was kinda of awkward because I was expecting it to really work. Both fights went to the ground pretty quick and I was a decent wrestler so I succeeded.
That's why I want to study jiu-jitsu once I have some money to spend on it. With a side of some striking art, maybe boxing or taekwondo.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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heiliskrimsli wrote: »hdrenollet wrote: »heiliskrimsli wrote: »What is the unit of measure for this force and the equations which are used to describe its interaction with matter?
What experiments can I perform to confirm the results of those calculations?
I think maybe you didn't completely understand my post? Ch'i not a force, it's an internal energy. Every human being has circulatory, respiratory, endocrine systems, etc... just think of it that way.
Energy has units too. What is the Unit of Measure for this form of energy?Now, one can learn to manipulate these systems to control respiration, improve blood flow, and even trigger an adrenal response. This is no different than any other highly trained athlete. They all learn how to control these systems to their specific needs for optimal performance.
Biological mechanisms that lower resting heart rate and respiration rate are well known. They are not some magic esoteric energy.For instance, if you take two runners in identical physical condition and stamina side-by-side. One has learned proper running form and breathing techniques where the other has not, who will win a race? The one with proper bodily alignment and controlled respiration will win every time because they know how to achieve the maximum force from their body by effectively controlling their energy flow.
Again the biological mechanisms by which training improves performance are well understood by science, so can you point me to some scientific literature that is peer reviewed which can prove your assertion?Martial Arts is no different. Our "race" may be a punch or a kick. We learn how to control our energy flow and body alignment to achieve the highest level of performance.
You learned that good form helps you apply force in a more efficient manner because human beings are subject to all the rules of physics.Like I said, it's not some "magical force" and how you measure such a thing is arbitrary. I suppose you could measure it the same way you would measure any other medical component of the human body.
Then please tell me what device measures it, and in what units.However, if you really want to perform an experiment, I have one that you can do without any fancy medical equipment.
Test case A: Go to a bar and start a fight with a random person who looks like a good fighter and take a few punches
Test case B: Find a small old karate master who's been studying for 40+ years and take a few punches.
Once complete, report back your results. I think you will have your answer.
None of that proves that "chi" exists any more than proving that someone who has practiced for a lifetime at anything will be better at it than a casual amateur. I guarantee you that if I go to a random bar in Nashville I can find someone who's able to play the violin. I also guarantee you they will not be as good at it as Itzhak Perlman, and it has nothing to do with "chi".
So, obviously you don't understand what I'm trying to say so this will be my very last attempt, put as simply as possible.
For the THIRD time, ch'i is NOT MAGIC
Ch'i IS A WORD.
This word is used to describe the circulatory system, respiratory system, endocrine system, nervous system, muscular system. It is physiology and physics - IT IS NOT MAGIC.
It is completely measurable - you can measure hormone levels, heart rate, respiration, blood oxygen content, etc... IT IS NOT MAGIC
What is so difficult for you to understand about this? You're all kinds of hung-up on this being some magical power or something brand new in the body when it's absolutely not. It's a Chinese term for these things that already happen in your body and in nature. People who say otherwise are trying to sell you something.4
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