Sugar Addict needs support

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  • LowCarb4Me2016
    LowCarb4Me2016 Posts: 575 Member
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    So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now? I thought it was considered an addiction and yet withdrawal consists of a few headaches, a little fatigue, and some crankiness. Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely. I can't name them personally as I've never experienced it. I wouldn't say I'm a sugar addict, but I do know what it's like to constantly want and think about sugary foods and not understand why. I'm not talking about a habitual thing, either. Its constant physical craving. Is it the same as heroine? No, of course not. But getting away from it did cause headaches, fatigue, serious crankiness, and a jittery feeling at times.
  • Running_and_Coffee
    Running_and_Coffee Posts: 811 Member
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    No comment here on the word "addiction," but I definitely believe sugar begets sugar. If I eat a cupcake, I'm more likely to want more cupcakes (or candy corns! or ice cream.) I have no idea if this is because of some sort of "addictive" quality or if it's because cupcakes taste sooooo good and I don't eat them often and once I eat one, I want more!

    Either way, I do best when I limit my sugar to small and careful quantities. A square of chocolate at the end of the day, a small cookie, that kind of thing. And when I have something protein-ish for dessert, I feel more satisfied than when I have the chocolate or cookie. So I will take plain ricotta cheese and add some cinnamon and vanilla flavored stevia and eat that as a treat and not crave cupcakes.
  • tgcake
    tgcake Posts: 59 Member
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    Regarding addiction, I'd like to point out that there is both psychological, and physiological aspects to it. The psychological aspect can affect people physically. Also, anything can be addicting in a psychological way. This seems to be purely psychological but in a way that affects a person physically. Alcohol, and drugs would likely be both or just physiological.

    OP: Maybe you should try cutting carbs/sugar out more slowly. Try no chocolate/candy/sweets for a bit but anything else is fine. When you are okay with that, cut out something else like maybe cookies/biscuits. Then cake, desserts, etc. Then breads, pasta, rice, starchy vegetables, fruits, etc. There's no need to do it all at once. Slower changes are more likely to stick.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now?

    Technically, I think it's a dependency, not an addiction. It definitely can create a physical dependency that you will have (mild) physical withdrawal symptoms from.

    On the other hand, alcohol CAN create a physical dependency, but that is not what determines alcohol addiction, and many, many alcoholics (or alcohol addicts) quit drinking without having serious withdrawal symptoms. (But people who quit should be aware that it can be life threatening to just stop drinking depending on their patterns. I did this after patterns that should have made me consider medical advice/supervision, it was unpleasant but I was okay, it was probably dumb.) The main issue for most alcoholics is much less a physical dependency than with quitting caffeine, but alcoholism fits the definition for addiction and caffeine dependency doesn't.
    Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely.

    Nicotine probably could be considered both, but it definitely has a physical dependency element.

    Sugar does not have a physical dependency element in that sense, and does not lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. (We know what causes keto flu, and it is not the same thing as withdrawal, and usually people talking about "withdrawal from sugar" aren't keto and are consuming plenty of food that breaks down to sugar in the body.)

    However, that sugar does not create a physical dependence does not mean that it cannot be an addiction. I think eating addiction is probably more accurate, and it requires more than merely having trouble moderating some food, although it might be a continuum. I've seen interviews of some morbidly obese food addicts who I do think were every bit as addicted as an alcoholic, and I think binge eating disorder seems at least somewhat the same thing.

    I also would agree with:
    Daddy78230 wrote: »
    I've quit smoking before, many, many times, before finally quitting several years ago. I've also had to cut the majority of my sugar and carbs from my diet due to health reasons. I would not say it's the same level, but it has a lot parallels. There's the habit and routine, the pleasurable associations...

    I think this is because a huge part of quitting a bad habit IS these kinds of things, and an addiction is, among other things, a habit.

    I don't really think it matters to the advice given whether one actually thinks it is an addiction or not, unless one decides that (a) it must be, and (b) that means it has to be removed from the diet entirely (which becomes a problem if you define it as sugar unless one is up for keto, I guess (which doesn't remove it entirely, but close enough perhaps), and I don't think that's the only or even the obvious first step for someone who thinks they have a problem moderating sweet things. (I would recommend to someone who thinks she has an addiction to alcohol that she consider quitting.)
  • hlblakeley
    hlblakeley Posts: 55 Member
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    I know where you are coming from on this, I feel like sweets are my biggest trigger to over eat. Honestly it's because they just don't fill me so I want more to get the same full feeling, but I also refuse to give them up! :smile: What I do is keep a single wrapped candy like Wurthers in my purse or maybe a mint. It gives me the taste of the sweet and hard candies last a long time since you suck on them so the satisfaction is longer. However having access to only one means I can't over do.
  • Sharon_C
    Sharon_C Posts: 2,132 Member
    edited May 2017
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    These are all the discussions on sugar addiction since February. This has been discussed ad nauseum and it always ends up in a big debate.

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10519374/recovering-sugar-addict-looking-for-home-workout-tips-and-motivation

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10539585/saa-sugar-addicts-anonymous

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10545011/how-to-battle-sugar-addiction

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10524716/sugar-addiction

  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    Ugh, sorry to be so long winded!
    storyjorie wrote: »
    No comment here on the word "addiction," but I definitely believe sugar begets sugar. If I eat a cupcake, I'm more likely to want more cupcakes (or candy corns! or ice cream.) I have no idea if this is because of some sort of "addictive" quality or if it's because cupcakes taste sooooo good and I don't eat them often and once I eat one, I want more!

    Either way, I do best when I limit my sugar to small and careful quantities. A square of chocolate at the end of the day, a small cookie, that kind of thing. And when I have something protein-ish for dessert, I feel more satisfied than when I have the chocolate or cookie. So I will take plain ricotta cheese and add some cinnamon and vanilla flavored stevia and eat that as a treat and not crave cupcakes.

    This is all true for me too. Ultimately structure is what works and the context in which I consume it.

    If I have dessert immediately after a balanced, nutrient-rich dinner it can be satisfying for me also, even without having much protein itself.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,395 MFP Moderator
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    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    I've experienced caffeine withdrawals, is that good enough? Or should I become a drug addict in order to REALLY understand my body's reaction to sugar? I didn't say it was a drug withdrawal. I said it felt similar to caffeine withdrawal, which no one disputes is an addiction.

    According to the nih "The reviewed evidence supports the theory that, in some circumstances, intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse. "
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/. So maybe not an actual addiction, but close enough for some that the term works in a general layman's discussion about nutrition.

    It seems to me that just like some can have a drink of alcohol without becoming an alcoholic, so to could someone eat a small amount of sugar and not have any further cravings. AGAIN, I'm not comparing it to heroine withdrawal. Not at all.

    They have only been able to show the effects in animal models (typically when given intermittent access to food)... which haven't translated in human models. More likely, it's hyperpalatable foods that drive the reward response. As @storyjorie mentioned, cupcakes (roughly a split between carbs and fats). So we all just love good food. For me, I'd binge more on cheese or chips & guac than cupcakes which I rarely eat.


    Also considering our bodies run on sugar and it breaks down nutrients to the lowest level and we don't have the responses to fruits, it seems less plausible to be an actual physical addiction.


    Like I noted previously though, restriction is worse for me that eating smaller quantities.
  • sydnisd183
    sydnisd183 Posts: 247 Member
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    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    Just here to say that no, "sugar withdrawal" is not at all like what drug addicts go through. It's not even close. Not even a little bit sorta close to being almost like something that's even remotely similar. It's kinda like getting a splinter and then wondering if that's similar to getting a leg amputated at the femur without any anesthesia.
    It's not even a physical/chemical withdrawal. It's just a taste craving for something you enjoy.

    ...I know that's right, as i've lived to tell the tale.
  • LowCarb4Me2016
    LowCarb4Me2016 Posts: 575 Member
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    psuLemon wrote: »
    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    I've experienced caffeine withdrawals, is that good enough? Or should I become a drug addict in order to REALLY understand my body's reaction to sugar? I didn't say it was a drug withdrawal. I said it felt similar to caffeine withdrawal, which no one disputes is an addiction.

    According to the nih "The reviewed evidence supports the theory that, in some circumstances, intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse. "
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/. So maybe not an actual addiction, but close enough for some that the term works in a general layman's discussion about nutrition.

    It seems to me that just like some can have a drink of alcohol without becoming an alcoholic, so to could someone eat a small amount of sugar and not have any further cravings. AGAIN, I'm not comparing it to heroine withdrawal. Not at all.

    They have only been able to show the effects in animal models (typically when given intermittent access to food)... which haven't translated in human models. More likely, it's hyperpalatable foods that drive the reward response. As @storyjorie mentioned, cupcakes (roughly a split between carbs and fats). So we all just love good food. For me, I'd binge more on cheese or chips & guac than cupcakes which I rarely eat.


    Also considering our bodies run on sugar and it breaks down nutrients to the lowest level and we don't have the responses to fruits, it seems less plausible to be an actual physical addiction.


    Like I noted previously though, restriction is worse for me that eating smaller quantities.

    What I know is the more sugar I consume, the more I want. Some part of my system does not register "enough" and I when I move away from heavy doses of sugar I experience caffeine-like withdrawal. I can have a small drink of alcohol once every 2-3 years and never miss it, yet I don't dismiss someone who says they're addicted to alcohol. I agree they need to do this study on humans because I don't think there have been enough studies to either call it an addiction officially, or dismiss it out of hand completely.
  • LowCarb4Me2016
    LowCarb4Me2016 Posts: 575 Member
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    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now?

    Technically, I think it's a dependency, not an addiction. It definitely can create a physical dependency that you will have (mild) physical withdrawal symptoms from.

    On the other hand, alcohol CAN create a physical dependency, but that is not what determines alcohol addiction, and many, many alcoholics (or alcohol addicts) quit drinking without having serious withdrawal symptoms. (But people who quit should be aware that it can be life threatening to just stop drinking depending on their patterns. I did this after patterns that should have made me consider medical advice/supervision, it was unpleasant but I was okay, it was probably dumb.) The main issue for most alcoholics is much less a physical dependency than with quitting caffeine, but alcoholism fits the definition for addiction and caffeine dependency doesn't.
    Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely.

    Nicotine probably could be considered both, but it definitely has a physical dependency element.

    Sugar does not have a physical dependency element in that sense, and does not lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. (We know what causes keto flu, and it is not the same thing as withdrawal, and usually people talking about "withdrawal from sugar" aren't keto and are consuming plenty of food that breaks down to sugar in the body.)

    However, that sugar does not create a physical dependence does not mean that it cannot be an addiction. I think eating addiction is probably more accurate, and it requires more than merely having trouble moderating some food, although it might be a continuum. I've seen interviews of some morbidly obese food addicts who I do think were every bit as addicted as an alcoholic, and I think binge eating disorder seems at least somewhat the same thing.

    I also would agree with:
    Daddy78230 wrote: »
    I've quit smoking before, many, many times, before finally quitting several years ago. I've also had to cut the majority of my sugar and carbs from my diet due to health reasons. I would not say it's the same level, but it has a lot parallels. There's the habit and routine, the pleasurable associations...

    I think this is because a huge part of quitting a bad habit IS these kinds of things, and an addiction is, among other things, a habit.

    I don't really think it matters to the advice given whether one actually thinks it is an addiction or not, unless one decides that (a) it must be, and (b) that means it has to be removed from the diet entirely (which becomes a problem if you define it as sugar unless one is up for keto, I guess (which doesn't remove it entirely, but close enough perhaps), and I don't think that's the only or even the obvious first step for someone who thinks they have a problem moderating sweet things. (I would recommend to someone who thinks she has an addiction to alcohol that she consider quitting.)

    Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.
  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 27,952 Member
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    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now? I thought it was considered an addiction and yet withdrawal consists of a few headaches, a little fatigue, and some crankiness. Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely. I can't name them personally as I've never experienced it. I wouldn't say I'm a sugar addict, but I do know what it's like to constantly want and think about sugary foods and not understand why. I'm not talking about a habitual thing, either. Its constant physical craving. Is it the same as heroine? No, of course not. But getting away from it did cause headaches, fatigue, serious crankiness, and a jittery feeling at times.

    I have a friend who was a heroin addict for 28 years who was able to quit that, but not nicotine. He kicked heroin many times, and although the physical symptoms of that were worse than quiting smoking, something about smoking is just more compelling for him.

    So I'm agreeing with you that the physical symptoms of withdrawal are not the end of the story.
  • danigirl1011
    danigirl1011 Posts: 314 Member
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    You are going to get responses all across the board with this. People who have never had the addiction will tell you it doesn't exist. But, i know how it goes. I would recommend with the carbs thing that unless you are diabetic to still eat them. A little whole grain pasta or rice is going to give you a balanced diet. And it might help curb your cravings. I eat pasta and rice (open diary) every week and i still lose weight but dont have cravings. Have you tried eating a piece of fruit when it happens? Maybe the natural sugar would help. I also tend to add a lot of avocado lately in my diet and i think it helps with cravings and is so tasty in pretty much everything. I also think adding in a lot fruits/veggies/proteins and eating every 2 hours helps, because if you are not hungry you are probably less edgy. You can do this! I have heard the first week is the absolute hardest, so if you got past that point you can only get better from here on out.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
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    LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »
    Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.

    That's not what a dependence is, though. Yes, the body naturally runs on sugar, just like it needs food and water. Dehydration is not water withdrawal, it's lack of something we naturally need. Lack of caffeine is not the same thing.

    Because the body naturally runs on sugar, switching to running more on ketones may (does?) lead to a short term feeling that one lacks energy and the rest and before the new energy kicks in (this is not meant to be scientific). That is just a different process than physical withdrawal.

    Also, again, most of the time people are not referring to keto flu. They HAVE sugar in their bodies and are getting plenty of sugar. What we are talking about (addiction or no), is a psychological thing. That is NOT minimizing it, again. Take a drug addict or alcoholic through rehab so that they are not suffering from withdrawal. Are they over the addiction? No, that's not enough.

    I think one reason the addiction thing is touchy is that the normal model for addiction treatment in the US (and beyond, but I know the US) is abstinence. If you are an addict, you must not have whatever it is, ever again, or you will lose it and probably ruin your life and be completely out of control. That's the model, that's the assumption. I don't think it really applies to sugar, at least not for most. (And as psulemon said, it's usually not "sugar," but a variety of hyperpalatable things. Are some more inclined, for whatever reasons, personal taste, childhood associations, etc., to the sweet? Sure.)

    I do think this is an interesting topic, although I wish the debate about addiction didn't always get tagged to threads where the OP often just wants practical advice on how to eat less sugar. (Which always happens, and I am not innocent.)

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