How dare these restaurant chains not post nutritional information?
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Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
They can't just rely on that...it goes to a lab...
Displaying nutritional info is voluntary for restaurants with less than 20 locations, so if a local (non-franchise) restaurant wants to display nutritional information, it isn't subject to the FDA standards for calculating nutrition (I see it all the time on menus for local businesses who put disclaimers that the stats are estimated).
But the post you are quoting I said if it was required...if it was required they do it, it would be subject to FDA standards....
I've personally never seen a local establishment even provide estimates...and frankly I could care less...I have common sense and I can guestimate well enough.
(Pssst - it is *couldn't care less*)
My kid has severe food allergies, so it would take a complete lack of common sense not to understand the ingredients that he is eating. There are a lot of factors that dictate what people could and couldn't care less about.
Oooo grammar nazi...i should just report you for violation of MFP rules, but I'm not like that.
Pssst...one of my boys has food allergies too...we ask about what's in the food and it's also fairly easy to determine...but really, that has absolutely nothing to do with a restaurant providing calorie information.4 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
In order to post nutritional information the food has to go to a lab certified by the FDA and the lab has to run several tests to determine the average nutritional information. Not a cheap option for a business that runs on a slim profit margin.
If you have less than 20 locations then there isn't any FDA involvement.
I know that. It is not required BUT if a restaurant or small chain chooses to post nutritional information, they have to do it using a lab certified by the FDA. They cannot post nutritional information not acquired through the proper channels.3 -
Oath responded to my tweet. Synopses: "soon."
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My college coffee joint finally added calories to their menu. I was pleasently surprised by some things. I think adding calorie counts can increase business in some cases, especially if the restaurant has 'nothing to hide' per se.0
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Bry_Lander wrote: »Displaying nutritional info is voluntary for restaurants with less than 20 locations, so if a local (non-franchise) restaurant wants to display nutritional information, it isn't subject to the FDA standards for calculating nutrition (I see it all the time on menus for local businesses who put disclaimers that the stats are estimated).
You're right, it WOULD be very easy for them to make something up. Calorie counters would be happy, they'd get more business. Of course, they'd probably estimate on the low side to gain more sales, and so you'd be eating more calories than you thought...
Perhaps you should be happy that these businesses aren't just coming up with their own calorie counts.2 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »This is turning into a good debate: when should restaurants be required to post nutritional info?...
Required it for chains selling standardized items (the current requirement for 20 or more locations)
I like this one.Require it for all restaurants, all meals
I'd be against this, I think it's too burdensome for local places that change their menus a lot (or smaller places in general). However, if they want to it can be a marketing chip. I personally don't have any interest in going to dinner places that would do that -- I like interesting food and it being so standardized works against that. However, for a quick lunch place, I don't go to those without cal counts, when I have other options that are just as good. There's a vegan chain, Native Foods, that apparently will not give calorie counts and I am pretty sure it's because they would be crazy high. The fact they won't makes me generally dislike going there and something I would choose not to do (I have a vegan friend who likes it when we meet for a quick lunch, though, sigh).I wonder if restaurants should be allowed to do their own estimates listed as such. It is pretty easy to do that with a variety of online tools (including MFP).
It wouldn't be reliable, and if you could force them to be honest (by penalizing them if they were wrong) they'd almost have to take advantage of the more protective options, like how they do it now with it being lab certified. And this makes it impossible for places that aren't so standardized.
There are also lots of places that do have it if you want it, so why force a mom and pop to do it?1 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »Oath responded to my tweet. Synopses: "soon."
There's a local place here, Firefin (poke), that originally did not have calorie counts, but seems to want to expand, and as part of that has added them. I was so pleased I went there a couple times just to reward them with my business. (It's good, too.)
So could be the same kind of thing.0 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
In order to post nutritional information the food has to go to a lab certified by the FDA and the lab has to run several tests to determine the average nutritional information. Not a cheap option for a business that runs on a slim profit margin.
If you have less than 20 locations then there isn't any FDA involvement.
So they would be required to post nutritional information, but there would be no expectation that it be verified via lab analysis?0 -
JeepHair77 wrote: »Yeah, I just can't get worked up over this. Restaurants shouldn't be required to leap over MORE red tape to do business. Mom and Pops are becoming fewer and further between, and I don't think that's a good trend.
then everyone will complain that food costs are going up ...1 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »I wonder if restaurants should be allowed to do their own estimates listed as such. It is pretty easy to do that with a variety of online tools (including MFP).
This is a non-starter. There would be absolutely no verification (aside from perhaps crusading TV news reporters). I would guarantee that new "calorie counting" websites, specifically for restaurants to use, would spring up, perhaps sponsored by food and beverage companies or restaurant industry groups. Then some lawmakers would insist that you have to use only certain websites, enshrining them in law. And so it would go.0 -
Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »This is turning into a good debate: when should restaurants be required to post nutritional info? Here are some options
- Make it entirely voluntary (never required)
- Required it for chains selling standardized items (the current requirement for 20 or more locations)
- Require it for all restaurants, all meals
I wonder if restaurants should be allowed to do their own estimates listed as such. It is pretty easy to do that with a variety of online tools (including MFP).
Seriously, have you looked at the amount of garbage included in the MFP database entries (and any other database dependent on user-entry)? You can find lo-balled calorie counts for half the food entries and plenty that make no sense whatsoever from any view-point. The nutrition info is wrong or incomplete more often than not and a single food item may be entered under five different names. No thanks, I'll stick to my own estimates, and if I'm off, so be it.
eta: I was looking up grapes today for my diary - half the entries appeared to have been entered by the same user in 1 cup or liquid (ml) measurements. smh3 -
broseidonkingofbrocean wrote: »It really doesn't cost that much money for you to have nutritional facts on your food in a restaurant. The guidelines for them aren't as strict as packaged food in a super market. You could easily get this from raw ingredients. Working in the restaurant industry you see it all the time, portions vary from cook to cook. A 500 calorie meal could jump up a few hundred calories just depending on who's working. Restaurants aren't reprimanded for this at all while say lays potato chips would be. I've literally had a manager use butter for weight watcher meals instead of the low calorie option cause it cuts down on food costs and they make big bonus's for stuff like that. This was in a big chain restaurants, lets call it crapplebee's.
The main issue lies in that it's time consuming and most restaurants aren't going to invest that time into doing this. Why? Well people who are going out to eat for the most part aren't worried about the calorie content of the meals. Sure they would change that if the majority of customers complained about it. It's different when its a chain and there are restaurants spread out nation wide.
Wow. That's wrong on so many levels. It's no wonder people who eat out often have to be careful.1 -
I think out of all the restaurants in my town maybe like 1 or 2 list the calories? And there are looots of restaurants. Its hard eating out here0
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Most of the chain type places here in the UK provide nutritional information.
Very few of the higher end or independent type places do.
I'm yet to feel outraged.3 -
Compulsory calorie counts would be the death of everything i love about fine dining. This is why we can't have nice things.5
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Honestly, I don't think ANY restaurant should be forced to post the information. Let them if they want to, but to make it a law is reaching. If you want nutritional information, then just eat at places the have it. That is your right as a consumer. Let the market sort it all out.
I think the larger chains should make it available and as others have noted, it's not that much hassle for them to get it done. They also have a high consistency in their product so it's very relevant, unlike a mom and pop restaurant.
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I live in South Africa and only the BIGGEST restaurant and fast food chains post nutritional information on their websites. It is very uncommon here.0
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This thread has so made me laugh. How on EARTH did people lose weight in the good 'ol days when NOWHERE listed their calories..? Despite the fact that most of the people on MFP do, so obviously it's something "we" might like, most people do not and so most restaurants aren't really going to be worried about losing the tiny handful of people who might not eat there because the calories aren't listed.
As for me personally, I do count calories, but if I'm going out for a meal, I don't need to know what the calories they say are in it because you have to take that nutritional info on the menu with a gigantic pinch of salt. Many people on here have pointed out the calorie difference in mass produced pre-packaged weights and therefore calorie values so imagine the difference in restaurant cooked food. Especially something like pizza, depends how heavy each individual maker is with the cheese etc. I guesstimate, shock horror!
If you are really that OUTRAGED at a pizza joint not providing their calories I suggest you never eat anything that you haven't made from scratch yourself. So nothing prepackaged as that's often wrong too.
My life's too short to not risk it once in a while and risk my eyeballing estimate is wrong by a couple of hundred calories...! But hey, I'm just that kind of gal!4 -
Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
They can't just rely on that...it goes to a lab...
Displaying nutritional info is voluntary for restaurants with less than 20 locations, so if a local (non-franchise) restaurant wants to display nutritional information, it isn't subject to the FDA standards for calculating nutrition (I see it all the time on menus for local businesses who put disclaimers that the stats are estimated).
But the post you are quoting I said if it was required...if it was required they do it, it would be subject to FDA standards....
I've personally never seen a local establishment even provide estimates...and frankly I could care less...I have common sense and I can guestimate well enough.
(Pssst - it is *couldn't care less*)
My kid has severe food allergies, so it would take a complete lack of common sense not to understand the ingredients that he is eating. There are a lot of factors that dictate what people could and couldn't care less about.
Psst - http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/03/18/why_i_could_care_less_is_not_as_irrational_or_ungrammatical_as_you_might.html
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cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
They can't just rely on that...it goes to a lab...
Displaying nutritional info is voluntary for restaurants with less than 20 locations, so if a local (non-franchise) restaurant wants to display nutritional information, it isn't subject to the FDA standards for calculating nutrition (I see it all the time on menus for local businesses who put disclaimers that the stats are estimated).
But the post you are quoting I said if it was required...if it was required they do it, it would be subject to FDA standards....
I've personally never seen a local establishment even provide estimates...and frankly I could care less...I have common sense and I can guestimate well enough.
(Pssst - it is *couldn't care less*)
My kid has severe food allergies, so it would take a complete lack of common sense not to understand the ingredients that he is eating. There are a lot of factors that dictate what people could and couldn't care less about.
Oooo grammar nazi...i should just report you for violation of MFP rules, but I'm not like that.
Pssst...one of my boys has food allergies too...we ask about what's in the food and it's also fairly easy to determine...but really, that has absolutely nothing to do with a restaurant providing calorie information.
Actually someone did report that savage correction I inflicted upon you – I apologize, I am still trying to understand how the most benign corrections are labeled as Nazism and trigger people, but I will work on it. (I accept grammatical corrections with humility and use them as opportunities for improvement, but hey, that is just my crazy philosophy…)Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »Bry_Lander wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »It costs a lot of money...if mom and pop shops were required to do that, there wouldn't be too many mom and pop shops.
I'm sure that all of the ingredients in their pizzas have nutritional information, including the flour, dough, cheese, sauce, toppings, etc., and they should be relatively consistent in how much they use for each product (if not, they aren't running things efficiently and aren't controlling their food costs). Therefore, I'm not buying that it is some monumental effort to provide nutritional information.
They can't just rely on that...it goes to a lab...
Displaying nutritional info is voluntary for restaurants with less than 20 locations, so if a local (non-franchise) restaurant wants to display nutritional information, it isn't subject to the FDA standards for calculating nutrition (I see it all the time on menus for local businesses who put disclaimers that the stats are estimated).
But the post you are quoting I said if it was required...if it was required they do it, it would be subject to FDA standards....
I've personally never seen a local establishment even provide estimates...and frankly I could care less...I have common sense and I can guestimate well enough.
(Pssst - it is *couldn't care less*)
My kid has severe food allergies, so it would take a complete lack of common sense not to understand the ingredients that he is eating. There are a lot of factors that dictate what people could and couldn't care less about.
Psst - http://www.slate.com/blogs/lexicon_valley/2014/03/18/why_i_could_care_less_is_not_as_irrational_or_ungrammatical_as_you_might.html
But the user was not trying to say the he could care less, he was trying to express that he couldn't care less. However, if he said he could care less about his family, then technically that would be correct, because he loves his family and could certainly care a great deal less about them, so it would be rational and grammatically correct.
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Freakanomics did a podcast about this. A study determined that although some restaurants have to post nutritional data on their menus, it's rare for consumers to even pay attention to them.2
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For the restaurants that do not post the info, people who weigh and measure all their food at home will have an easier time estimating because they will have practice seeing what 1 cup of mashed potatoes looks like.
or you can, you know, ask. The local sports bar I play trivia at was really good when I asked how much the chicken breast that I wanted on my salad weighs. The server actually went back in the kitchen and the cook weighed a couple of them with an average of 6 oz. Works for me. Their burgers are hand patted but the meat is weighed to either 1/3 or 1/2 lb. If I get a salad with grilled chicken, I don't worry too much about the veggies and just take a guess. The meat and the dressing are the main things and they always serve the dressing on the side in little 2 Tbl cups. Close enough for me.
BTW: this place serves Tater Tots as an alternative to fries.2 -
gamerbabe14 wrote: »Freakanomics did a podcast about this. A study determined that although some restaurants have to post nutritional data on their menus, it's rare for consumers to even pay attention to them.
From my n=1 I've found this to be true. Before I started making a focused effort on controlling my weight by counting calories I not only glossed over the calorie information I made a deliberate effort to ignore it.
Eta clarity0 -
Even with large chains, some things are not as standardized as you might think. When I was in high school, I was a waitress at a Pizza Hut. I saw the cooks make pizzas all the time. None of them...ever...weighed out cheese (probably the most high calorie part of many pizzas). They eyeballed it. There was plenty of variation. Same with sauce, sausage and other toppings. No food scales were used (I know, that is blasphemous in the mfp world. May God have mercy on their souls!) Nobody counted out an exact number of pepperoni slices. Nobody even used measuring cups or spoons. So any nutrition info provided for your pizza is just about guaranteed to be wrong.
People need to stop being slaves to specific numbers on a website or menu and pretending they are exact and panicking when they aren't available. Use some common sense. You KNOW peppers are very low in calories and sausage is high. You know anything with lots of cheese, or a cream based sauce, or that is deep fried, or that has a lot of sugar...is probably very high in calories. You know if they give you a large volume of food...unless it is salad greens (without tons of cheese, bacon, croutons, creamy dressing, and other high calorie fillers)...it is probably more calories than you need. So if you like the restaurant because you get a lot of value for your money...you are also getting a lot of calories for your money.
So order accordingly, or take part of it home, or just eat it all and accept that you will probably eat more than your targeted calories that day. But use your brain...calorie information might be nice, but I think it is silly to believe that order of jalepeno poppers is exactly 370 calories.6 -
nobody is forcing you to eat out... if you're so concerned with knowing your nutritional intake, then simply eat at home or estimate to the best of your ability when the information is not available. its not that difficult... even if the nutritional info WAS available at these chains, its not going to be 100% accurate.0
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MoiAussi93 wrote: »Even with large chains, some things are not as standardized as you might think. When I was in high school, I was a waitress at a Pizza Hut. I saw the cooks make pizzas all the time. None of them...ever...weighed out cheese (probably the most high calorie part of many pizzas). They eyeballed it. There was plenty of variation. Same with sauce, sausage and other toppings. No food scales were used (I know, that is blasphemous in the mfp world. May God have mercy on their souls!) Nobody counted out an exact number of pepperoni slices. Nobody even used measuring cups or spoons. So any nutrition info provided for your pizza is just about guaranteed to be wrong.
People need to stop being slaves to specific numbers on a website or menu and pretending they are exact and panicking when they aren't available. Use some common sense. You KNOW peppers are very low in calories and sausage is high. You know anything with lots of cheese, or a cream based sauce, or that is deep fried, or that has a lot of sugar...is probably very high in calories. You know if they give you a large volume of food...unless it is salad greens (without tons of cheese, bacon, croutons, creamy dressing, and other high calorie fillers)...it is probably more calories than you need. So if you like the restaurant because you get a lot of value for your money...you are also getting a lot of calories for your money.
So order accordingly, or take part of it home, or just eat it all and accept that you will probably eat more than your targeted calories that day. But use your brain...calorie information might be nice, but I think it is silly to believe that order of jalepeno poppers is exactly 370 calories.
Wait for it...I'm going to surprise you...(well, I probably won't surprise the PP but I may surprise the OP)...
...in all likelihood, nothing you've ever logged at 370 calories is EXACTLY 370 calories.
It's all estimations. We can try to be as accurate as possible, but we're never exactly accurate. Do the best you can to make good choices for your life and then move on.3 -
gamerbabe14 wrote: »Freakanomics did a podcast about this. A study determined that although some restaurants have to post nutritional data on their menus, it's rare for consumers to even pay attention to them.
From my n=1 I've found this to be true. Before I started making a focused effort on controlling my weight by counting calories I not only glossed over the calorie information I made a deliberate effort to ignore it.
Eta clarity
Well, that brings back memories of actively avoiding looking at the calorie count of the box of something or other that I knew was bad for me and way too many calories. Now I understand why it doesn't reduce sales according to the studies I have seen.
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »We have two fairly-new high-end pizza local pizza chains that serve thin-crust pizza with minimal (but delicious) toppings. Their names are oddly similar: Otto Pizza and Oath Pizza.
You could probably eat 2-3 slices of a small pizza plus some salad for a meal and remain within plan, but neither posts nutrition info anywhere.
HOW DARE THEY?
In the case of Otto, my guess is that they don't want people to exactly know how many calories are in an entire Mashed Potato, Bacon & Scallion pizza. (If you're trying to lose weight, I might not choose that one.)
Oath is trying to create walk-through pizza, sort of like Chipotle. You choose a bunch of toppings and they run it through a flash oven. It's pretty good.
But: both seem to be making a play to be national chains. At some point, they will be required to post nutritional info. What the f are they waiting for?
Go eat somewhere else! That is what I do when restaurants won't show the calories!!! Or I take a big wild guess!!!0 -
another issue with calorie counts in restaurants is that there is no way that the folks cooking/preparing the meals are going to make them exactly the same every time....1
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Jthanmyfitnesspal wrote: »This page at the FDA web site says they have to post it if they have 20 or more locations. This would exclude Oath and Otto, for now.
https://www.fda.gov/food/ingredientspackaginglabeling/labelingnutrition/ucm248732.htm
Wow! I didn't know this was a federal law. I live near NYC and I only knew about the local law that requires all large chain restaurants in the 5 boroughs to post their calorie counts next to the menu items. It looks like the FDA followed NY's idea at some point.
Good idea, FDA! The more this is accessible, the easier it is for people to be careful about what they eat.0
This discussion has been closed.
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