Cannot lose weight and gain muscle? Whats the Science behind this??

terryt1992
terryt1992 Posts: 94 Member
edited November 18 in Health and Weight Loss
Someone please explain this to me. I weigh 328 lbs. I have lost 86 so far without strength training. I am continuing to eat a deficit but added strength training. People seem to say that you cannot lose weight from fat and gain muscle at the same time.
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Replies

  • terryt1992
    terryt1992 Posts: 94 Member
    Lol Broscience I see. So basically you can gain strength and still be losing weight. I thought this was wrong because I have been strength training for a little over a month and I have lost weight and I feel a lot stronger and also feel like I have more muscle mass
  • c_ward1983
    c_ward1983 Posts: 22 Member
    Your body only burns muscle over fat in short term fasting or caloric deficit. Long term (more than 3-4 days) it will prefer fat over muscle. This is in regards to weight loss and where the weight is coming from. If you try and gain muscle while on a diet you might have mixed results. If you want bigger muscles while simultaneously loosing fat you'll have to have a pretty protein heavy diet. For this kind of goal/training you should talk to a trainer who has experience with this kind of thing, and probably look at some supplements (mileage will vary)
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    Strength training or any progressive resistance program will defend muscle loss, but will show few if any gains in muscle mass. Biological systems tend to work optimally in specific circumstances, which is why most people find success in cutting/bulking cycles. What you are looking for is a recomp program, which is possible, but takes more time.

    I highly recommend anyone implement some manner of resistance training to preserve your existing muscle mass as this is the primary driver of your metabolism.
  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    terryt1992 wrote: »
    Lol Broscience I see. So basically you can gain strength and still be losing weight. I thought this was wrong because I have been strength training for a little over a month and I have lost weight and I feel a lot stronger and also feel like I have more muscle mass

    Getting stronger doesn't mean you've gained muscle mass.

    I bet not carrying around all that extra weight means you have less fatigue in general, which might contribute to you feeling stronger.

    Most of the weight you've lost is probably fat, which means if you have exactly the same amount of muscle, it will be more visible now. Even if you have slightly less, it will be easier to see. It's like when the leaves come down in the fall and you have a better view.

    Now with all that said, it's not impossible to build muscle while losing fat. It might even be happening to you! It sounds like you're new to lifting, so you're in this "honeymoon phase" where you get "newbie gains." People do "recomp" which is when you reach your goal weight then eat at maintenance and lift progressively, lowering your body fat percentage over time and building muscle. This is a long and slow process.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    terryt1992 wrote: »
    Someone please explain this to me. I weigh 328 lbs. I have lost 86 so far without strength training. I am continuing to eat a deficit but added strength training. People seem to say that you cannot lose weight from fat and gain muscle at the same time.

    In your current position, you are primed for newb gains, so you will build some muscle at least for a limited time. Also note that much in the way of actual strength gains early on isn't so much about new muscle mass but rather recruitment of existing muscle that wasn't being utilized and neural adaptation.

    Muscle mass gained in a deficit is going to be fairly limited and it won't be to the extent that it would be at maintenance or in a surplus...essentially, you can't create something from nothing...muscle requires a great deal of energy to build and while cutting, you are in a deficit of energy. Building any significant muscle requires being in an anabolic state and while dieting you are in a catabolic state.

    At your size and starting point though, you are pretty well primed for some good noob gains...
  • Tacklewasher
    Tacklewasher Posts: 7,122 Member
    As others have pointed out, you can. So can I.

    Here is (I think) a good article on it.

    http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/

    We fit in the "Fat beginners" category.
  • KrazyKrissyy
    KrazyKrissyy Posts: 322 Member
    edited May 2017
    TimothyFish wrote: »
    terryt1992 wrote: »
    Someone please explain this to me. I weigh 328 lbs. I have lost 86 so far without strength training. I am continuing to eat a deficit but added strength training. People seem to say that you cannot lose weight from fat and gain muscle at the same time.

    Actually, the science says that you can lose weight and gain muscle at the same time. However, the body builder crowd usually say you can't because it is more difficult to do.

    Agreed, although it gets more difficult the less b/f you have to lose. I get DXA scans every year since 2013. I started out as obese (187 lb and 42% bf). Next scan (2014) was 133 lb and 27% bf. Next scan (2015) 135 lb and 23% bf. Most recent scan (2016) 133 lb and 20%. Lean mass has been slowly increasing according to DXA results, strength, (and physique). I'm due for another one this year. DXA scans have roughly 1% +/- error but the results have been great so far. Additionally, the scans identify where the body fat is distributed (white markings in the x-rays) and printed calculations of fat and muscle mass per scan. Ranges from $75-250 for each scan.
  • leobuganski
    leobuganski Posts: 2 Member
    To add to this blog I can attest to that I've been dieting and working out since the beginning of the year and add lean muscle, I don't think adding huge muscle gains are possible without eating higher amounts of the right type of calories, as well as some really good sources of Protein.
  • CSARdiver
    CSARdiver Posts: 6,252 Member
    Recomp Thread:

    https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10177803/recomposition-maintaining-weight-while-losing-fat/p1

    Start here - great information lies within.
  • Mycophilia
    Mycophilia Posts: 1,225 Member
    BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
    Tacklewasher wrote: »
    http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/
    jemhh wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_wQq8M3Q

    These are great links! Here's another one that's really good:

    https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    leobuganski wrote: »
    To add to this blog I can attest to that I've been dieting and working out since the beginning of the year and add lean muscle, I don't think adding huge muscle gains are possible without eating higher amounts of the right type of calories, as well as some really good sources of Protein.

    and this is wrong too...
  • cqbkaju
    cqbkaju Posts: 1,011 Member
    edited May 2017
    You can "recomp" (burn fat and add a bit of muscle) and see reasonable results for a while under a few select cases but it will still require a lot of discipline and dedication in the gym and with your diet.
    Being new to weight training (untrained) or returning from a layoff (de-trained) and also overweight are among the cases.
    However the muscle gains will not be as dramatic as you are probably hoping and will not go on for as long as you may like.
    You can gain a lot of strength, but that is not the same as gaining a lot of muscle.
    As others have said, Lyle McDonald is the man when it comes to these sort of questions.

    The more fat you burn, the lower your overall body fat percentage and the subsequent insulin response changes will continue to make it harder and harder to gain additional muscle. Remember you are eating at a deficit - not enough Calories In to grow on.
    You can argue the thermodynamics all you want but I will warn you that I have a degree in Engineering and I've studied a lot of physics.

    It may look like you gained a lot of muscle but that will be mostly due to the lower body fat levels and increased definition.

    I think most of the people on both sides here are telling you the same thing.
    They are just focusing on either "it can be done" or "it can be done efficiently" and/or "for a long time".

    Generally speaking a "recomp" to a certain body fat percentage (realistic expectations here) might take twice as long as an equivalent cut and bulk cycle. That being said, some people still prefer to recomp because there is no need to mess around with changing calories and macros all the time.
    For many experienced lifters eating at "maintenance" while training and "recomp" are functionally the same thing.
  • BoxerBrawler
    BoxerBrawler Posts: 2,032 Member
    You can definitely gain muscle while in a deficit but yeah, very specific plan, a lot of discipline, a lot of gym time. The idea of having to gain body fat to build muscle is antiquated. The poster above in terms of insulin response... I think he has that backward... the higher your body fat the less insulin response you have. You have to eat just enough so your body doesn't think it's starving but not enough to gain fat. The body is super smart, it won't automatically go after the muscles first if it doesn't have too. Quality protein at a nice even pace throughout the day with every meal... blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it can be done. I am actually doing it right now for a competition in November. Start lean or get lean and the build muscle, not the other way around.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    Mycophilia wrote: »
    BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »
    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html/
    Tacklewasher wrote: »
    http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-build-muscle-and-lose-fat/
    jemhh wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFo_wQq8M3Q

    These are great links! Here's another one that's really good:

    https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/

    That is from Eric Helms also (same person that @jemhh linked in the video above. Solid information, he's extremely knowledgeable about nutrition and training. The one linked by @BusyRaeNOTBusty is Lyle McDonald, who is another excellent source.

    As others have said, it is possible to gain muscle while in a deficit. The gains are smaller than if you were at maintenance or in a surplus, but the OP is in one of the circumstances in which it is particularly feasible (overfat beginner).

    Strength gains are a separate topic from mass/muscle gains. It's possible to make quite significant strength gains even while in a deficit, especially as a beginner. Strength gains are largely driven by neuromuscular adaptation, along with becoming more proficient at the exercises you're doing. There's a big window there - you can put on a considerable amount of strength irrespective of muscle increase.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    cushman5279 wrote: »
    You can definitely gain muscle while in a deficit but yeah, very specific plan, a lot of discipline, a lot of gym time. The idea of having to gain body fat to build muscle is antiquated. The poster above in terms of insulin response... I think he has that backward... the higher your body fat the less insulin response you have. You have to eat just enough so your body doesn't think it's starving but not enough to gain fat. The body is super smart, it won't automatically go after the muscles first if it doesn't have too. Quality protein at a nice even pace throughout the day with every meal... blah, blah, blah. Anyway, it can be done. I am actually doing it right now for a competition in November. Start lean or get lean and the build muscle, not the other way around.

    I think "a lot of gym time" might be a bit antiquated as well.

    As long as you are doing a progressive load lifting program aka the right program you can do that recomp without gaining fat.

    On a bulk you will gain some fat that is to be expected...you are in a surplus but you can minimize fat gains by doing a "clean slow" bulk.
  • moonstroller
    moonstroller Posts: 210 Member
    Regardless of what people tell you whether you can or cannot eat at a deficit and loose fat while gaining muscle at the same time, you're seeing the results. Just keep doing what you're doing and enjoy the positive changes in your body. You'll continue getting stronger and continue losing fat as you build muscle. How long this will continue is the question, and you can address that when you get there.
  • Tropicoolblonde
    Tropicoolblonde Posts: 70 Member
    It's the same as people who say muscle weighs more than fat.. it does not it is more dense than fat.. with density being a function of mass and volume.. You can CONVERT fat to muscle while losing weight. Look at long distance runners...we are all lean as hell, and we are almost exclusively muscle.
  • Tropicoolblonde
    Tropicoolblonde Posts: 70 Member
    also i don't trust any website source unless it ends in .edu or .gov. Years of research has made me very good at discerning the *kitten* on the internet.
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