June 2017 Running Challenge

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  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    MAX HEART RATE QUESTION

    So okay, 220-Age for me = 178

    If I understood the video with that guy in the red shirt in the videos linked above, an "easy" run should be at 60% of MHR. So

    178*0.60 = 107.

    Umm 107? Really? If I go by effort, 145 feels like easy and that is 81%? I just ran for 1hour 39 mins at 145. My PR for the 10k was at 162 which is 91 % and that took me just under 51 minutes.

    What am I missing here?

  • MNLittleFinn
    MNLittleFinn Posts: 4,271 Member
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    I find 220-age to give too low of an HR. Also, using a spreadsheet with Jack Daniels stuff, and a Max recorded HR of 194 (I'm 34), I get an E range, for me of 136-146 (70-75% of max)65% and lower is recovery run range.

    here's the table: http://www.electricblues.com/archive/DanielsTables3-00-00.xls
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    MAX HEART RATE QUESTION

    So okay, 220-Age for me = 178

    If I understood the video with that guy in the red shirt in the videos linked above, an "easy" run should be at 60% of MHR. So

    178*0.60 = 107.

    Umm 107? Really? If I go by effort, 145 feels like easy and that is 81%? I just ran for 1hour 39 mins at 145. My PR for the 10k was at 162 which is 91 % and that took me just under 51 minutes.

    What am I missing here?

    What you're missing is, 220-Age doesn't work well for a lot of runners.

    I am 61 years old. 220-Age = 159, which happens to be the max heart rate I experienced being a rabbit for a 2 mile time trial this evening. I wasn't running it full out, I was targeting 5K pace. In race conditions, I've seen a HR as high as 189, and upper 160s is routine for the end of a medium distance race when I put in the finish line kick.

    What's my max HR? I don't know precisely. I'm using 185 as an estimate, based on the 189 I achieved at the top of The Wall on the third loop of Apalachee State Park in Tallahassee. At that point, I felt like I couldn't run any more. I probably wouldn't have kept running if it hadn't turned to downhill just then.

    Also, I find the Karvonnen method of computing zones gives me more useful zones than just percentage of max. In the Karvonnen method, you use percentage from resting HR to max HR. As referenced above, I estimate max HR of 185. I've been using 45 for resting HR, which is hard to measure because a) I need to remember to do it before I get out of bed, and b) when I'm really resting that well it's hard to feel my pulse. But 45 is a number I have come up with. I suspect reality might be lower, because the nurse told me my RHR was 45 at my physical in March, and I was sitting quietly instead of resting in bed.

    So with the Karvonnen method, my 60% comes out to 129 and 80% to 157.

    Amazingly enough, I found a do it yourself method on another thread. It said run a 30 minute time trial like a race, as hard as you can run 30 minutes, and your lactic threshold HR is the average HR you had for the last 20 minutes. Well, I'm not going to do that exercise; but last March I ran a 31 minute 8K on a course as flat as a track in near perfect running weather. I ran pretty even splits, and turned in a PR time. If I kick out the first 2 miles (12 minutes and change), the rest of the race comes out to an average HR of . . . 157.

    I still don't *know* either my max heart rate or my lactic threshold heart rate for sure, but I'm comfortable that these numbers are close enough to work with.
  • MobyCarp
    MobyCarp Posts: 2,927 Member
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    June Running Totals (miles)
    6/1 – 8.25 warm up, speed work, cool down
    6/2 – rest day
    6/3 – 12.18 solo + group run
    6/4 – 7.21 easy with fast finish
    6/5 – 7.07 easy
    6/6 – 11.05 warm up, speed work, cool down
    6/7 – 7.38 group run
    6/8 – 5.33 warm up, easy speed work, cool down
    6/9 – 3.01 warm up + McMullen Mile
    6/10 – 15.01 group run 6 + solo run 9
    6/11 – 10.01 hot and sunny
    6/12 – 10.06 hot with hills
    6/13 – 8.64 warm up, speed work, cool down
    6/14 – 10.04 easy
    6/15 AM – 5.05 easy with rain
    6/15 PM – 4.88 commute, time trial, cheering laps
    6/16 – rest day

    June total to date – 125.17

    Nominal Challenge Goal – 230 miles
    Real Goals: Stay healthy. Train toward Rochester Marathon. Run McMullen Mile in under 5:50 on June 9. [Done, 5:44.9] Run Medved 5K to Cure ALS in under 20:00 on June 18.

    [s}Today's[/s] This evening's notes – Got to the training session kick off. There was a shower, it stopped, and we went out to run in the humidity. A slow (~10 minute mile pace) commute with a crowd to the trial site. Stand around and talk. Set off to be the rabbit, targeting my 5K pace rather than killing myself running 2 miles as fast as I can. Passed the marker at 12:38, then ran a couple laps (a bit over a mile) contra to cheer on the people still working on their 2 miles. A slightly less slow (9:20-ish pace) commute back to the store. It didn't add up to quite 5 miles total, but it was a fun evening. It looks like at least one of the trainees was fast enough to get slotted into the 8 or 8:30 pace group; on Saturday I'll see who shows up for the first paced run of the session.

    Rest day tomorrow. After running 13 days in a row, I'll appreciate it.

    2017 races:
    January 1, 2017 Freezeroo #2 (Resolution Run 7.5 mile) (Mendon, NY) Finished in 50:45
    January 7, 2017 Winter Warrior Half Marathon (Gates, NY) Finished in 1:32:40
    January 14, 2017 Freezeroo #3 (Pineway Ponds Park 5 mile) (Spencerport, NY) Finished in 33:42
    January 28, 2017 Freezeroo #4 (Hearnish 5 mile) (Victor, NY) short course, finished 4.88 miles in 32:50
    February 4, 2017 USATF Cross Country National Championship Masters 8K (Bend, OR) Finished in 35:39, team won the 60+ Men's cross country championship
    February 11, 2017 Freezeroo #5 (Valentines Run "In Memory of Tom Brannon" 8 Mile) (Greece, NY) sat out due to training schedule
    February 25, 2017 Freezeroo #6 (White House Challenge 4.4 mile) (Webster, NY) short course, finished 4.34 miles in 27:51
    March 11, 2017 Johnny's Runnin' of the Green 5 mile (Rochester, NY) finished in 33:25
    March 18, 2017 USATF Masters 8K Championship (Shamrock 8K, Virginia Beach, VA) finished in 30:59, PR for 8K
    April 17, 2017 Boston Marathon (Hopkinton, MA) finished in 3:49:42
    April 30, 2017 USATF Masters 10K Championship (James Joyce Ramble, Dedham, MA) finished in 39:54, PR for 10K
    May 21, 2017 Lilac Run 10K (Rochester, NY) finished in 40:04
    May 27, 2017 Canandaigua Classic Half Marathon (Canandaigua, NY) finished in 1:33:06
    June 9, 2017 Charlie McMullen Mile (Fairport, NY) finished in 5:44.90, PR for mile
    June 18, 2017 Medved 5K to Cure ALS (Rochester, NY)
    July 15, 2017 Shoreline Half Marathon [1:40 pacer] (Hamlin, NY)
    July 28, 2017 Karknocker 5K (East Rochester, NY)
    September 3, 2017 Oak Tree Half Marathon (Geneseo, NY)
    September 17, 2017 MVP Rochester Marathon (Rochester, NY)
    November 23, 2017 Race with Grace 10K (Hilton, NY)
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
    edited June 2017
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    MAX HEART RATE QUESTION

    So okay, 220-Age for me = 178

    If I understood the video with that guy in the red shirt in the videos linked above, an "easy" run should be at 60% of MHR. So

    178*0.60 = 107.

    Umm 107? Really? If I go by effort, 145 feels like easy and that is 81%? I just ran for 1hour 39 mins at 145. My PR for the 10k was at 162 which is 91 % and that took me just under 51 minutes.

    What am I missing here?

    SOOOO I looked back at two recent races. One was a 5k where I ran a steady 9 min mile till the last 1/3rd of a mile or so and kicked it as hard as I could. Max recorded HR in that was 183. Another was a 10k where as I came in sight of the finish line I realized I was close to a PR (missed it sadly) so I kicked it hard. 185 max recorded HR. So I think I could say 185 might be a closer max. Resting is 50-55 area. Never really checked it specifically but sitting around I have glanced at my watch and see numbers in those ranges.

    Still though 60% of 185 is not that much different than 60% of 178


    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    @MobyCarp - So using the Karvonen Heart Rate Calculator ( http://www.briancalkins.com/HeartRate.htm ) and fudging my age so that it yields 185 max I get

    60% 131 - Doubt I have ever averaged anything that low.
    70% 145 - This is about where I am most training runs
    75% 151 - This is about where I was for the marathon
    85% 165 - This is about where I am in 5k and 10k races

    So based on that is

    E = 131 ? Way slower than my current e/lr pace. Not sure I can run this slow.
    T = 165 ?

  • 9voice9
    9voice9 Posts: 693 Member
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    skippygirlsmom wrote: »
    Saw this on other site.... never have I ever as a runner. I scored 9. Give yourself a point for every yes you have.
    10 for me....
  • Don_WM_
    Don_WM_ Posts: 262 Member
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    critterfull1220 wrote: »
    Hi guys, I would like to join. I'm a beginner, this is first time in my life I have found a happiness in running, and I'm totally hooked. I'm running/walking 15 miles a week. Working on my endurance. I ran my first 1/4 mile non-stopped this past Sunday. A huge accomplishment from where I started. I'm guessing I can get in 50 miles in this month. I could use some running friends too

    Welcome! I'm a beginner too (I always hated running before -but not now!) and thought I would mention the couch to 5k program - it's working really well for me, I'm about halfway through. Look for C25K free app. You can / will learn a lot just by reading this thread, it's great! :smiley:
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    critterfull1220 wrote: »
    Hi guys, I would like to join. I'm a beginner, this is first time in my life I have found a happiness in running, and I'm totally hooked. I'm running/walking 15 miles a week. Working on my endurance. I ran my first 1/4 mile non-stopped this past Sunday. A huge accomplishment from where I started. I'm guessing I can get in 50 miles in this month. I could use some running friends too

    Welcome! Great work on your first 1/4 mile!
  • Don_WM_
    Don_WM_ Posts: 262 Member
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    6/1 completed day 2 week 2 c25k
    6/2 three hours karate lessons / practice
    6/3 two hours karate lessons / practice
    6/4 rest
    6/5 completed day 3 week 2 c25k
    6/6 karate lesson
    6/7 Completed week 3 day 1 c25k(yay) & karate lesson
    6/8 rest
    6/9 Completed week 3 day 2 c25k & karate lesson
    6/10 karate lesson
    6/11 Completed week3 day 3 c25k
    6/12 rest
    6/13 Completed week 4 day 1 C25K & karate lesson
    6/14 Karate lesson
    6/15 Completed week 4 day 2 C25K
    6/16 Graduation to 3rd brown belt - woohoo!

    Of course, weekdays I get ~6 miles walking / steps per day.

    Have a great weekend all! :smiley:
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited June 2017
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    MAX HEART RATE QUESTION

    So okay, 220-Age for me = 178

    If I understood the video with that guy in the red shirt in the videos linked above, an "easy" run should be at 60% of MHR. So

    178*0.60 = 107.

    Umm 107? Really? If I go by effort, 145 feels like easy and that is 81%? I just ran for 1hour 39 mins at 145. My PR for the 10k was at 162 which is 91 % and that took me just under 51 minutes.

    What am I missing here?
    60% is the LOW range for easy effort. The high end of that range would be 80%, up to 85% if you go by the McMillan guidelines. If you run without walking I suggest capping it at 80%.

    ETA - The Karvonnen zones are more accurate for me too. So as opposed to a percentage of MaxHR go with Z2 to Z3 as your guide for easy runs. Or if you want to go by percentages, do it by percentage of HR Reserve, which is how Karvonnen is calculated. So 60% HR Reserve is:
    RHR = Resting HR
    RHR + (.6 * (MaxHR - RHR)

    ...and 80% would be:
    RHR + (.8 * (MaxHR - RHR))

    As for accuracy of 220 - age, up until yesterday I never thought it applies to me. I am 45 so mine would be 175 per that formula. After years of running with my highest efforts only being in basically tempo intervals range, I had "estimated" my max HR at around 180 to as high as 185. Since actually working on maximum efforr intervals over shorter distances I have seen my HR at an actual maximum of 175. Much lower than my "estimates", but at the moment right on according to that formula.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    VydorScope wrote: »
    MAX HEART RATE QUESTION

    So okay, 220-Age for me = 178

    If I understood the video with that guy in the red shirt in the videos linked above, an "easy" run should be at 60% of MHR. So

    178*0.60 = 107.

    Umm 107? Really? If I go by effort, 145 feels like easy and that is 81%? I just ran for 1hour 39 mins at 145. My PR for the 10k was at 162 which is 91 % and that took me just under 51 minutes.

    What am I missing here?

    SOOOO I looked back at two recent races. One was a 5k where I ran a steady 9 min mile till the last 1/3rd of a mile or so and kicked it as hard as I could. Max recorded HR in that was 183. Another was a 10k where as I came in sight of the finish line I realized I was close to a PR (missed it sadly) so I kicked it hard. 185 max recorded HR. So I think I could say 185 might be a closer max. Resting is 50-55 area. Never really checked it specifically but sitting around I have glanced at my watch and see numbers in those ranges.

    Still though 60% of 185 is not that much different than 60% of 178


    --
    Pastor Vincent
    A 5k and 10k won't show your MaxHR, you can't run more than just a couple minutes at MaxHR effort. A 10k can be useful to many to measure their Lactate Threshold HR if your 10k time is really close to 1 hour. Lactate Threshold is the highest intensity you can maintain for one hour. So take your average HR over the 10k and use that as your Lactate Threshold HR.
  • PastorVincent
    PastorVincent Posts: 6,668 Member
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    WhatMeRunning wrote: »
    A 5k and 10k won't show your MaxHR, you can't run more than just a couple minutes at MaxHR effort. A 10k can be useful to many to measure their Lactate Threshold HR if your 10k time is really close to 1 hour. Lactate Threshold is the highest intensity you can maintain for one hour. So take your average HR over the 10k and use that as your Lactate Threshold HR.

    According to run keeper, my avg HR for the 10k is 162 for 50:53.

    How do I use that number again? Heh getting lost here in all these numbers. :) I think today I will try the max heart rate tests. One place said to sprint as hard as I could for 3 mins, then rest three, then repeat. Highest heart rate in the second run was max HR. That sound right?

    --
    Pastor Vincent
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
    edited June 2017
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    VydorScope wrote: »
    WhatMeRunning wrote: »
    A 5k and 10k won't show your MaxHR, you can't run more than just a couple minutes at MaxHR effort. A 10k can be useful to many to measure their Lactate Threshold HR if your 10k time is really close to 1 hour. Lactate Threshold is the highest intensity you can maintain for one hour. So take your average HR over the 10k and use that as your Lactate Threshold HR.

    According to run keeper, my avg HR for the 10k is 162 for 50:53.

    How do I use that number again? Heh getting lost here in all these numbers. :) I think today I will try the max heart rate tests. One place said to sprint as hard as I could for 3 mins, then rest three, then repeat. Highest heart rate in the second run was max HR. That sound right?

    --
    Pastor Vincent
    That would do it. In my case, I can't sprint at full effort for 3 minutes though. Right now I can do 400m in just under two minutes and I am pretty knackered those last few meters. Just run hard until you are done, then repeat after a rest. I don't think you can get your HR up to Max until at least around 90 seconds into the run based on my simple observations, so you should endure as long as that, the close to 2-3 minutes probably better.

    Also, it took me a few sessions to do this. The firsr time out, I couldn't make myself run full effort. My mind has been trained to slow down and save something in the tank for too many years. After doing repeats between 100m and 400m a few times though, I'm getting comfortable taking off for 400m at a fast clip that wipes me out by the finish.
  • WhatMeRunning
    WhatMeRunning Posts: 3,538 Member
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    Oh, lactate threshold? Sheesh, that one is complicated.

    Best way to describe it is that if you run under it you are aerobic and can gain the benefits of aerobic running. You muscles can consume the lactate produced in your muscles as part of the fueling process. This is what easy and long runs are all about.

    As you near lactate threshold you are at that boundary between maintaining aerobic and going anaerobic. Also your lactate starts building up, being produced faster than your muscles can consume it in that near anaerobic state. Thus why you can't go longer than 1 hour, at that point at this effort your lactate should be high enough that your muscles literally can no longer function until resting to clear the excess lactate.

    Why it is nice to know your threshold is that you can do tempo runs and intervals near or at that effort as part of regular training runs. It produces added lactate that your muscles use for fuel, and by not going over, or by having easy effort recovery between intervals your muscles train to clear that lactate faster. This allows faster recovery from harder workouts, and when running under but near that threshold you can go farther at that effort. It is key for going faster at race efforts like HM and even full marathons.

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