Plant based diet
Replies
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cwolfman13 wrote: »I only bothered with the first two...your first link doesn't have anything to do with meat consumption...it's about obesity.
The second link says this at the end..."Overall, summary associations were weak in magnitude (i.e. most less than 1.20), processed meat definitions and analytical comparisons were highly variable across studies, and isolating the independent effects of processed meat intake is difficult, given the likely influence of confounding by other dietary and lifestyle factors. Therefore, the currently available epidemiologic evidence is not sufficient to support a clear and unequivocal independent positive association between processed meat consumption and CRC."
The vast majority of studies around meat are correlation studies and they typically ignore other aspects of diet and overall lifestyle. One can eat quite healthfully eating meat...the problem with the SAD is that it includes a lot of meat and very little veg and fruit...it's a *kitten* diet and that's what most of the correlation studies are looking at, but just saying it's the meat.
The vast body of research on all aspects of health that look at the effects of red meat and processed meat all point in the same direction: it's not healthy, increases the risks of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, and certain kinds of cancers, and is one of the greatest factors included within the SAD that makes people unhealthy.
Many of the studies narrow it specifically to just meat's impact, another in the '40's put people on a near junk-food vegan diet and their heart health still improved, likely owing to the lack of red meat.
You can say correlation doesn't mean causation -- and you'd be right -- but the vast body of research says the less meat a person eats the healthier they will be.4 -
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janejellyroll wrote: »I had an Equal Exchange bar yesterday with lemon, ginger, and black pepper. It was amazing!
I love that one! I really didn't expect to enjoy it so much since the flavor combination sounds weird to me.
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I'm going to have plant foods most days without denying myself fish and eggs Will be reducing eggs. Once I have my own kitchen I'll be able to start my healthier journey. I'll have my own kitchen July/August. I'm looking forward to feeling healthier and well. Thank you everyone2
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TheWJordinWJordin wrote: »Hard to do for long term. This means no doritos - ever.
Doritos is not worth all the trouble that being fat does to someone. I can tell you from experience, that now that im eating a whole food plant based diet, Cheetos and Doritos are NOT something i even think about or desire. New foods are attractive to me and i want them.
What if vegetables are not new to you? I don't quite get the point about new foods unless you assume people are eating a poor diet now (and at some point they will not be new).
I love trying new things, but love many non new to me things too, and not all the new things are going to be super nutrient dense (although some will be).3 -
Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?
I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.
That's not what the peer-reviewed science says. Most peer-reviewed scientific studies show the absence of animal products is what is majorly beneficial.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193060/
http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2010/09000/Processed_meat_and_colorectal_cancer__a.2.aspx
http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TBMJ_UK_TrendMD-0
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/5/e001072.short
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070955
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414881?version=meter at null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/217599
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/43/10/2556.short
I mean, I could go on.
So I went through the studies one by one, yep too much time on my hands.
First study Discusses obesity in Saudi Arabia. The only mention of meat was that those who ate more meat were more likely to be obese. I always find this silly. If you are obese, you consume more calories overall. This includes, you guessed it, meat. Those who eat more generally eat more of everything. This same study mentions that those who ate more vegetables were not less likely to be obese. In a culture where vegetables are part of day to day cooking this is to be expected because, again, if you are obese you eat a lot of everything including vegetables.
The rest discuss Association between red and processed meat and several outcomes. One review mentions the association for colorectal cancer is there, but quite weak overall. The rest shows association with worse outcomes for those who consumed the highest amount compared to those who consumed the lowest amount of red and processed meat, and white meat showed reduced mortality risk.
The study showing overall meat consumption association showed modest link not controlled for BMI. I'm wary of modest associations because of confounding factors. This shows clearly in that study, that the choices made in the highest quintile of red meat consumers contained more processed meats and less white meat, they also tended to have lower physical activity level and higher energy intake. There is your link. People who are not as interested in the healthfulness of their lifestyle tend to have slightly shorter lives.
Basically, a bunch of weak links for all kinds of bad stuff for red and processed meat, and reverse links for white meat. White meat is not exactly plant-based, and weak links are not exactly easy to attribute to meat consumption. A meat eater can be just as healthy as a plant-based eater, all things equal.8 -
amusedmonkey wrote: »Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?
I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.
That's not what the peer-reviewed science says. Most peer-reviewed scientific studies show the absence of animal products is what is majorly beneficial.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193060/
http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2010/09000/Processed_meat_and_colorectal_cancer__a.2.aspx
http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TBMJ_UK_TrendMD-0
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/5/e001072.short
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070955
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414881?version=meter at null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/217599
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/43/10/2556.short
I mean, I could go on.
So I went through the studies one by one, yep too much time on my hands.
First study Discusses obesity in Saudi Arabia. The only mention of meat was that those who ate more meat were more likely to be obese. I always find this silly. If you are obese, you consume more calories overall. This includes, you guessed it, meat. Those who eat more generally eat more of everything. This same study mentions that those who ate more vegetables were not less likely to be obese. In a culture where vegetables are part of day to day cooking this is to be expected because, again, if you are obese you eat a lot of everything including vegetables.
The rest discuss Association between red and processed meat and several outcomes. One review mentions the association for colorectal cancer is there, but quite weak overall. The rest shows association with worse outcomes for those who consumed the highest amount compared to those who consumed the lowest amount of red and processed meat, and white meat showed reduced mortality risk.
The study showing overall meat consumption association showed modest link not controlled for BMI. I'm wary of modest associations because of confounding factors. This shows clearly in that study, that the choices made in the highest quintile of red meat consumers contained more processed meats and less white meat, they also tended to have lower physical activity level and higher energy intake. There is your link. People who are not as interested in the healthfulness of their lifestyle tend to have slightly shorter lives.
Basically, a bunch of weak links for all kinds of bad stuff for red and processed meat, and reverse links for white meat. White meat is not exactly plant-based, and weak links are not exactly easy to attribute to meat consumption. A meat eater can be just as healthy as a plant-based eater, all things equal.
That's pretty much what I figured which is why I stopped at 2...thanks for reading all of them.2 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Perhaps the perceived benefits of vegan WFPB eating are more about the presence of plants, then, rather than the absence of animal products?
I wouldn't discourage someone becoming vegan for a range of ethical reasons, but think the health argument is a bit more tenuous.
That's not what the peer-reviewed science says. Most peer-reviewed scientific studies show the absence of animal products is what is majorly beneficial.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4193060/
http://journals.lww.com/eurjcancerprev/Abstract/2010/09000/Processed_meat_and_colorectal_cancer__a.2.aspx
http://www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j1957?utm_source=TrendMD&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=TBMJ_UK_TrendMD-0
http://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/5/e001072.short
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0070955
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/414881?version=meter at null&module=meter-Links&pgtype=Blogs&contentId=&mediaId=&referrer=&priority=true&action=click&contentCollection=meter-links-click
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/217599
http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/43/10/2556.short
I mean, I could go on.
So I went through the studies one by one, yep too much time on my hands.
First study Discusses obesity in Saudi Arabia. The only mention of meat was that those who ate more meat were more likely to be obese. I always find this silly. If you are obese, you consume more calories overall. This includes, you guessed it, meat. Those who eat more generally eat more of everything. This same study mentions that those who ate more vegetables were not less likely to be obese. In a culture where vegetables are part of day to day cooking this is to be expected because, again, if you are obese you eat a lot of everything including vegetables.
The rest discuss Association between red and processed meat and several outcomes. One review mentions the association for colorectal cancer is there, but quite weak overall. The rest shows association with worse outcomes for those who consumed the highest amount compared to those who consumed the lowest amount of red and processed meat, and white meat showed reduced mortality risk.
The study showing overall meat consumption association showed modest link not controlled for BMI. I'm wary of modest associations because of confounding factors. This shows clearly in that study, that the choices made in the highest quintile of red meat consumers contained more processed meats and less white meat, they also tended to have lower physical activity level and higher energy intake. There is your link. People who are not as interested in the healthfulness of their lifestyle tend to have slightly shorter lives.
Basically, a bunch of weak links for all kinds of bad stuff for red and processed meat, and reverse links for white meat. White meat is not exactly plant-based, and weak links are not exactly easy to attribute to meat consumption. A meat eater can be just as healthy as a plant-based eater, all things equal.
That's pretty much what I figured which is why I stopped at 2...thanks for reading all of them.
And thanks to both of you, @amusedmonkey and @cwolfman13 for picking up the meat discussion I foolishly started. I haven't eaten any ( intentionally, anyway
) since 1974, so I'm not very up on current research. But I do know a bunch of healthy, active people my age and older who eat quite a bit of it . . . but they eat plenty of veggies, too. 2 -
TheWJordinWJordin wrote: »Hard to do for long term. This means no doritos - ever.
Doritos is not worth all the trouble that being fat does to someone. I can tell you from experience, that now that im eating a whole food plant based diet, Cheetos and Doritos are NOT something i even think about or desire. New foods are attractive to me and i want them.
I like new foods, and I still like cheetos. Eating them in moderation hasn't kept me from losing weight.7 -
All things in moderation, including moderation. It's the moderation part I struggle with.1
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If you have Netflix watch What the Health... its very eye opening. I've been a pescatarian for 3 years, and recently switched to plant-based. I feel the best that i have felt in my life. Eat to Live
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There are no health benefits that can be proven by credible science to back up a plant based diet. If you're doing it for moral reasons, good for you, but it won't be a magic pill. Oreos and doritos are vegan friendly for example and there at lots of overweight, unhealthy vegans.4
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There are no health benefits that can be proven by credible science to back up a plant based diet. If you're doing it for moral reasons, good for you, but it won't be a magic pill. Oreos and doritos are vegan friendly for example and there at lots of overweight, unhealthy vegans.
I disagree -- a plant-based diet is *one* of the possible healthy ways of eating. There is abundant evidence that a diet high in fiber and vegetables is good for us and a plant-based diet is one of the ways in which we can eat to get those benefits.
No way of eating is a "magic pill," but that doesn't mean that we can't eat in certain ways that are shown -- on a population level -- to have better overall outcomes for health.
Also, you should be aware that "plant-based" and "vegan" have different meanings. OP wasn't asking about eating a vegan diet including foods like Oreos and Doritos (which isn't automatically unhealthy), they were asking about a plant-based diet.8 -
Ready2Rock206 wrote: »
Chocolate and lentils do come from plants... so she's not completely wrong. Milk chocolate obvs. has milk in it, but lots of dark chocolate doesn't.1 -
I've lost 115 lbs with a mostly plant based diet. I eliminated most processed foods...still have a little room for a treat every once in a while, but like others who have gone plant based, I feel AMAZING, my skin is clear, my joints work smoothly, I sleep well, I am in a better mood, I can't think of any area of my life that hasn't improved since making the switch.3
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Interesting turn this thread took. I don't want to join the argument about benefits but will present my results. Since the end of February, I have been slowly eliminating meat and processed foods. My calories have stayed stable at roughly 1800-2000 calories a day, but the weight loss really increased as the balance of whole plant based foods got higher and meat and processed food dropped. In 4 months I have dropped 39lbs, my cholesterol has dropped 30 points my A1C is at 5.1 and my kidney function has increased from 39% to 48%. My BP was 192/145 on February 27 which put me in the hospital and I have been on 8+ bp meds for 25 years. In the last month, the doctor has dropped 3 of the meds because my bp keeps dropping too low. There are studies all over the place that back plant-based and a bunch that backs processed food and meat as safe and government approved. All I can say is that by changing the source of my food to whole plant-based and as much organic as I can find and with very little exercise my body changed for better. This past week I went totally plant-based, with the exception of a feta/olive Mediterranean salad that I emulsify and use as a condiment and I am feeling even better than ever. For me moving away from animal protein is saving my life. Pretty sure Oreo's, Doritos and my favorite porterhouse would not be able to do that.6
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Thank you for this. I am definitely eliminating big percentage of eggs to start then maybe eventually I'll only have them occasionally0
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Interesting turn this thread took. I don't want to join the argument about benefits but will present my results. Since the end of February, I have been slowly eliminating meat and processed foods. My calories have stayed stable at roughly 1800-2000 calories a day, but the weight loss really increased as the balance of whole plant based foods got higher and meat and processed food dropped. In 4 months I have dropped 39lbs, my cholesterol has dropped 30 points my A1C is at 5.1 and my kidney function has increased from 39% to 48%. My BP was 192/145 on February 27 which put me in the hospital and I have been on 8+ bp meds for 25 years. In the last month, the doctor has dropped 3 of the meds because my bp keeps dropping too low. There are studies all over the place that back plant-based and a bunch that backs processed food and meat as safe and government approved. All I can say is that by changing the source of my food to whole plant-based and as much organic as I can find and with very little exercise my body changed for better. This past week I went totally plant-based, with the exception of a feta/olive Mediterranean salad that I emulsify and use as a condiment and I am feeling even better than ever. For me moving away from animal protein is saving my life. Pretty sure Oreo's, Doritos and my favorite porterhouse would not be able to do that.
This is great that you've seen so much improvement! A good diet and weight loss help quite a few health markers. If you continued losing weight and did not eliminate animal products but improved your nutritional profile with lots of vegetables and nutritious foods you probably would have still seen improvement. I have. Granted I'm not the best to tout lean meats because I've never been that much into meat, but I have achieved comparable results while consuming plenty of dairy and occasional eggs/meat. Comparing a healthful plant based diet with a poor meat based diet is not fair.
P.S: Oreos and some flavors of Doritos are vegan!3 -
Oh, I definitely saw improvement when I was still eating meat, it just seemed to speed up quite a bit with the change in my source of food. I also really think it is based a lot on each person's body. Years ago when I power lifted to compete, I thrived on a high protein meat based diet and had great labs, so there are so may factors involved. I think people should experiment and find what works. I didn't go plant based for ethical reasons, I did it because my body was giving out and the cardiologist and the Nephrologist both suggested if I reduced animal protein and dairy I could slow the progression of my kidney disease and reduce the risk of my aneurysm bursting. It was with a very heavy heart I gave away my smoker, but I have been able to challenge myself to get creative and there are some amazing dishes that are keeping me motivated. And don't think Oreo's are not in my future because moderation allows for treats, although I have never been a Doritos person, I am more of a Ruffles with dip person. :-)1
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Oh, I definitely saw improvement when I was still eating meat, it just seemed to speed up quite a bit with the change in my source of food. I also really think it is based a lot on each person's body. Years ago when I power lifted to compete, I thrived on a high protein meat based diet and had great labs, so there are so may factors involved. I think people should experiment and find what works. I didn't go plant based for ethical reasons, I did it because my body was giving out and the cardiologist and the Nephrologist both suggested if I reduced animal protein and dairy I could slow the progression of my kidney disease and reduce the risk of my aneurysm bursting. It was with a very heavy heart I gave away my smoker, but I have been able to challenge myself to get creative and there are some amazing dishes that are keeping me motivated. And don't think Oreo's are not in my future because moderation allows for treats, although I have never been a Doritos guy, I was more of a Ruffles with dip person. :-)
For kidney disease you definitely made the right choice! Congratulations on finding the best diet for you. I will also have to agree that plant based dishes are some of the tastiest out there. I'll take an eggplant and chickpea salad over burger any day. I'm not against plant-based diets. In fact I'm fully for them and personally kind of partial to them. For certain health conditions, like in your case, they are superior. It's just some people try to attach miraculous expectations to their diet (plant based and otherwise) that no diet can live up to. People on all kinds of diets get sick, all we can do is eat reasonably well within our chosen diet and hope for the best. Isolating one chosen diet and advocating it as the "best and healthiest" diet is misleading and can frustrate people when their preferences don't align with said diet.
My whole point is that a nutrition focused plant based diet is healthy, but it's not the only healthy diet and I bet everyone can find something that aligns with their preferences that's just as healthy.4 -
Thank you. I've had veg, fruit, nuts seeds beans all day and have been fine. Had egg in my last dish and the wind has started, thankfully I'm on my own tonight lol. Think me and eggs are over0
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Same happened yesterday after boiled eggs. My stomach doesn't like them0
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I'm currently switching to a more whole foods, plant based diet and I haven't noticed anything significant with how I feel. I do have more energy, due the the much larger fruit intake ie sugar. I now eat more sugar from fruit and raw honey, than what I was getting with my old, SAD diet, which was pretty low sugar (I'm not a sweets person and gravitate towards salty). And then I've also had an easier time maintaining a calorie balance from eating more plant based foods. I'm a few years into maintenance and was still tracking my calorie intake. Since I've made the switch I've pretty much gotten away from tracking my calorie intake and I'm still maintaining within my 5lb maintenance window, (I also haven't lost any weight since switching either btw).
Weekly I still eat a few servings of Oreo cookies, chips, dairy (down to just cheese), and then 12 ounces of fish and beef. But otherwise my diet consists of lots of veg/fruit, beans, nuts and seeds, whole grains and then small amounts of raw honey, olives, unsweetened almond milk, coconut water etc. Oh, and coffee
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I've been vegan for almost 3 years and love the way I feel. I was vegetarian before that and found the switch from omnivore to vegetarian extremely beneficial for the way my body felt. Then when I made the switch from vegetarian to vegan, I felt even better.
I will provide a note of caution - I have a mild case of IBS, so my digestion is certainly impacted by the amount of fiber I eat nowadays. You may find that a plant-based diet improves your digestion tremendously. I've found that it often contributes to a mild amount of discomfort given my pre-existing condition, however I take a low-dosage prescription that helps with stomach cramping and has worked wonders.
Note that veganism isn't a cure-all, and definitely isn't right for everyone. You may find that you feel better even with taking a few nights per week off of animal products. Start slow, and if you want, work your way up to 100% animal product-free. Let it be something that's sustainable for you, and don't beat yourself up if you can't commit to it 100%. Even I cheat and eat a small bit of cheese sometimes 1 -
Thank you. My skins clearer and ibs reduced. I've reduced eggs and fish and removed dairy. I will definitely treat myself just in moderation. Feeling confident this is positive step forward1
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Hey guys, I have been transitioning to vegan over the past 6 months and have been noticing a consistant weight gain due to my high carb diet. Do you guys have any tips for me? I am moderately active plus cardio at least twice a week and calorie counting doesn't seem to be helping.1
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Secondhalf35 wrote: »Thank you. My skins clearer and ibs reduced. I've reduced eggs and fish and removed dairy. I will definitely treat myself just in moderation. Feeling confident this is positive step forward
We sound very similar
I'm still keeping 1 serving (4 ounces) of wild caught salmon a week for the nutrients and the same with 1-2 servings of beef (we buy local, grass fed beef). Dairy has been reduced to a bit of cheese here and there and then the odd ball thing like chip dip once in a blue moon. Eggs are either an egg white once in a while or as an ingredient in a baked good like muffins. Chicken and pork are pretty much totally gone, though no foods are completely forbidden-I just don't actively seek it out anymore with my focus on plant foods.
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Yeah moderation for me too. I will definitely focus on plant base. Bit like a tree. The trunk is the plants, the branches are eggs etc and the leaves are treats in moderation Hi I'm not too sure. Maybe count calories 1
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Hey guys, I have been transitioning to vegan over the past 6 months and have been noticing a consistant weight gain due to my high carb diet. Do you guys have any tips for me? I am moderately active plus cardio at least twice a week and calorie counting doesn't seem to be helping.
It's not the carbs, either you are eating more calories than you think or something else is going on.3 -
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