No one can live on foods of penitence

13

Replies

  • kshama2001
    kshama2001 Posts: 28,052 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    For me, penitent food would be a macrobiotic diet.
  • SiegfriedXXL
    SiegfriedXXL Posts: 219 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    For me it would be to eat apples in any form.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,600 Member
    Alatariel75 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    Speaking of penitence, here is the 1972 Weight Watchers program. Ever wonder why people think weight loss has to be penitential?

    Some highlights:
    You must eat liver at least once a week
    Cheeses are "illegal" if they are soft enough to spread evenly and not hard enough to slice easily. Do not use cheese spreads.
    The skim milk we allow is the instant non-fat dry milk, reconstitute according to label directions; or skim milk labeled either "skimmed milk" or "modified" or "fortified skim milk" with no whole milk solids added. Do not use milk labeled "a skimmed milk product" or "99% fat free." Your daily allowance of evaporated skimmed milk may be diluted with an equal amount of water to make a total of 16 ounces skim milk. The buttermilk may be made from either whole or combination of skim milk and whole milk; Bulgarian buttermilk is not permitted.
    Do not eat or drink the following (except, of course, for "legal" recipes as given in this book):
    Alcoholic beverages, beer, wine
    Bacon or back fat (fat back)
    Butter
    Cake, cookies, crackers, pies
    Candy, chocolate
    Catsup, chili sauce
    Coconut or coconut oil
    Corn
    Cream, sweet or sour
    Cream cheese
    Fried foods
    Fruit, dried, canned in syrup or dietetic
    Ice cream, ice milk, ices and sherbets
    Jams, jellies, or preserves
    Luncheon meats
    Muffins, biscuits
    Non-dairy creamers or toppings
    Olives or olive oils
    Pancakes, waffles
    Peanut butter
    Peanuts, other nuts
    Pizza
    Popcorn, potato chips, pretzels
    Pork products
    Puddings, custards, flavored gelatin desserts
    Raw fish or meat
    Specialty breads
    Salad dressings
    Sardines
    Smoked fish (except finnan haddie and salmon)
    Soda pop, ades, punch
    Soups
    Sugar
    Syrups

    My mum still has the box with all the 70s material in it! Some of the recipe cards are HORRIFIC haahaa

    OH: here's some!! http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html

    Not just a WW issue, I think. The 70s had some pretty weird recipes in general.

    (I was there - turned 18 in 1973. Stuff like fish aspic was being done, and strange riffs on "exotic" "foreign" food. Lime Jello - which i swear used to be less sweet then - with things like cottage cheese, celery, black olives in it. Shudder!)
  • mjbnj0001
    mjbnj0001 Posts: 1,272 Member
    HeidiCooksSupper wrote: »
    An annual joint conference sponsored by the Harvard School of Public Health and the Culinary Institute of America came away with a bunch of findings and perceptions. One particularly struck me.
    Taste must accompany nutritional science. “No one can live on foods of penitence.” (- Mollie Katzen)

    ...

    I like that quote and the thought behind it. Of course, long-term adherence to a quality way of eating must have some taste/pleasure/satisfaction to it! I have found, especially now that I'm semi-retired and doing all the main cooking, that putting out healthful, "clean(ish)" and tasty meals leads to overall health improvements as well as weight loss. Certainly, we're not doing much mindless eating any longer. Thanks for the quote, I"ll use it around!
  • jgnatca
    jgnatca Posts: 14,464 Member
    Great thread! I am so happy I can still be a foodie and track my eating too.
  • singingflutelady
    singingflutelady Posts: 8,736 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    :::small voice:::::

    I like rice cakes.

    Me too. They are tasty
  • RedSierra
    RedSierra Posts: 253 Member
    goldthistime wrote: »
    I actually like plain food. I don't dislike food with spices or sauces, but I'm equally happy to eat some thing like roasted chicken and three steamed veggies, (sans seasoning), day in and day out.

    But I heartily agree with the idea that you're more likely to get to goal and stay there if you approach things with self love than punishment.

    I agree with this -- I like plain food, too. One person's penitent food is another's enjoyment. We all have different taste.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    I hate rice cakes, but love liver, and steamed cauliflower too.

    I think the issue is whether you eat food that you don't enjoy, because it's supposed to be diet food.
  • Projectjustme
    Projectjustme Posts: 47 Member
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    I love kale! My granddad used to grow it (way before it became 'the' food) and it was one of the first leafy green veg that I remember eating and enjoying.
    Cereal of any sort would be my penitent food - don't like the sugary ones and the others feel like I am trying to chew cardboard :s
  • Alatariel75
    Alatariel75 Posts: 18,346 Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    I hate rice cakes, but love liver, and steamed cauliflower too.

    I think the issue is whether you eat food that you don't enjoy, because it's supposed to be diet food.

    Exactly, I don't think anyone is criticising liking plain foods. If you like plain foods, have at it! Simplicity can be delicious! The point is more that you don't need to punish yourself with food you don't enjoy because it's "diet food"
  • Projectjustme
    Projectjustme Posts: 47 Member

    My mum still has the box with all the 70s material in it! Some of the recipe cards are HORRIFIC haahaa

    OH: here's some!! http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html[/quote]

    These are hysterical and disturbing in the same measure! Thanks for the link

  • missh1967
    missh1967 Posts: 661 Member
    RedSierra wrote: »
    One person's penitent food is another's enjoyment. We all have different taste.

    :smile: Indeed.

  • Jruzer
    Jruzer Posts: 3,501 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Alatariel75 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    Speaking of penitence, here is the 1972 Weight Watchers program. Ever wonder why people think weight loss has to be penitential?

    Some highlights:
    You must eat liver at least once a week
    Cheeses are "illegal" if they are soft enough to spread evenly and not hard enough to slice easily. Do not use cheese spreads.
    The skim milk we allow is the instant non-fat dry milk, reconstitute according to label directions; or skim milk labeled either "skimmed milk" or "modified" or "fortified skim milk" with no whole milk solids added. Do not use milk labeled "a skimmed milk product" or "99% fat free." Your daily allowance of evaporated skimmed milk may be diluted with an equal amount of water to make a total of 16 ounces skim milk. The buttermilk may be made from either whole or combination of skim milk and whole milk; Bulgarian buttermilk is not permitted.
    Do not eat or drink the following (except, of course, for "legal" recipes as given in this book):
    Alcoholic beverages, beer, wine
    Bacon or back fat (fat back)
    Butter
    Cake, cookies, crackers, pies
    Candy, chocolate
    Catsup, chili sauce
    Coconut or coconut oil
    Corn
    Cream, sweet or sour
    Cream cheese
    Fried foods
    Fruit, dried, canned in syrup or dietetic
    Ice cream, ice milk, ices and sherbets
    Jams, jellies, or preserves
    Luncheon meats
    Muffins, biscuits
    Non-dairy creamers or toppings
    Olives or olive oils
    Pancakes, waffles
    Peanut butter
    Peanuts, other nuts
    Pizza
    Popcorn, potato chips, pretzels
    Pork products
    Puddings, custards, flavored gelatin desserts
    Raw fish or meat
    Specialty breads
    Salad dressings
    Sardines
    Smoked fish (except finnan haddie and salmon)
    Soda pop, ades, punch
    Soups
    Sugar
    Syrups

    My mum still has the box with all the 70s material in it! Some of the recipe cards are HORRIFIC haahaa

    OH: here's some!! http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html

    Not just a WW issue, I think. The 70s had some pretty weird recipes in general.

    (I was there - turned 18 in 1973. Stuff like fish aspic was being done, and strange riffs on "exotic" "foreign" food. Lime Jello - which i swear used to be less sweet then - with things like cottage cheese, celery, black olives in it. Shudder!)

    I remember my grade school cafeteria serving shredded carrots, or celery, in our jello. That was a dark time indeed.
  • Jruzer
    Jruzer Posts: 3,501 Member
    Alatariel75 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    Speaking of penitence, here is the 1972 Weight Watchers program. Ever wonder why people think weight loss has to be penitential?

    Some highlights:
    You must eat liver at least once a week
    Cheeses are "illegal" if they are soft enough to spread evenly and not hard enough to slice easily. Do not use cheese spreads.
    The skim milk we allow is the instant non-fat dry milk, reconstitute according to label directions; or skim milk labeled either "skimmed milk" or "modified" or "fortified skim milk" with no whole milk solids added. Do not use milk labeled "a skimmed milk product" or "99% fat free." Your daily allowance of evaporated skimmed milk may be diluted with an equal amount of water to make a total of 16 ounces skim milk. The buttermilk may be made from either whole or combination of skim milk and whole milk; Bulgarian buttermilk is not permitted.
    Do not eat or drink the following (except, of course, for "legal" recipes as given in this book):
    Alcoholic beverages, beer, wine
    Bacon or back fat (fat back)
    Butter
    Cake, cookies, crackers, pies
    Candy, chocolate
    Catsup, chili sauce
    Coconut or coconut oil
    Corn
    Cream, sweet or sour
    Cream cheese
    Fried foods
    Fruit, dried, canned in syrup or dietetic
    Ice cream, ice milk, ices and sherbets
    Jams, jellies, or preserves
    Luncheon meats
    Muffins, biscuits
    Non-dairy creamers or toppings
    Olives or olive oils
    Pancakes, waffles
    Peanut butter
    Peanuts, other nuts
    Pizza
    Popcorn, potato chips, pretzels
    Pork products
    Puddings, custards, flavored gelatin desserts
    Raw fish or meat
    Specialty breads
    Salad dressings
    Sardines
    Smoked fish (except finnan haddie and salmon)
    Soda pop, ades, punch
    Soups
    Sugar
    Syrups

    My mum still has the box with all the 70s material in it! Some of the recipe cards are HORRIFIC haahaa

    OH: here's some!! http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html

    There's a lot more of that kind of thing here:
    The Gallery of Regrettable Food
  • tabletop_joe
    tabletop_joe Posts: 455 Member
    Jruzer wrote: »
    piperdown44 wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    For me...fried liver. Or just about any way to prepare liver (shudder) :#

    I think I read somewhere that the various religious orders of monks, for fasting or penitence, would be where they did not eat. However, beer was not considered food during that time, so they would drink their yummy beer. THAT I could do for fasting or penitence B)

    This story is probably apocryphal, but it's too good not to share. (Source)
    So you gave up dessert for Lent? Good for you, you wimp! Once upon a time, German monks ate nothing for the entirety of the Lenten fast. No bread, no salad, no fruit—nothing. Beat that.

    How did they survive, you ask? By imbibing large quantities of heavy, calorie rich beer, of course!

    Around 700 years ago, German monks in the town of Einbeck developed a specific style of malty, dark, high alcohol beer to help sustain them during intense periods of fasting. This beer became known as Bock, a corruption of the name Einbeck. Later, discontent with the strength of Bock style beer, monks developed an even stronger variant known as Doppelbock, meaning double Bock. This beer was so laden with nutrition that some dubbed it “liquid bread.”

    Now, these beers were so delicious that the monks began to wonder if they were contrary to the spirit of Lenten penance. Being faithful sons of the Church, they decided to consult the pope. On the journey to Rome, however, the beer was subjected to extreme weather conditions, causing it to spoil and turn sour. When the pope tasted it, he was so appalled by the spoiled beer that he immediately deemed it an excellent Lenten penance.

    I read a great book, The Third Horseman: A Story of Weather, War, and the Famine History Forgot by William Rosen. I could be botching the numbers somewhat, but I believe the book calculated that the average peasant from West/Central Europe (Flanders and surrounding regions) in the 1300's consumed about 2100 calories per day in non-famine times. It sounds like enough until you factor in the sheer amount of daily physical labor, then you realize most folks were slowly starving their whole lives. What's even more remarkable is that up 900 of those calories were from ale or beer--so it wasn't just the relatively wealthy cleric class who made it by on nearly drinks alone during Lent!

    Also, it's not true that people didn't drink water in the Middle Ages. Water was frequently consumed--usually safely too. :)
  • mjbnj0001
    mjbnj0001 Posts: 1,272 Member
    Projectjustme wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    I love kale! My granddad used to grow it (way before it became 'the' food) and it was one of the first leafy green veg that I remember eating and enjoying.
    Cereal of any sort would be my penitent food - don't like the sugary ones and the others feel like I am trying to chew cardboard :s

    Kale! I was on coumadin for a number of years - "no or moderate leafy green veggies" - then recently switched to a new anticoagulant without the restriction. I went kale-crazy: kale smoothies, salads, soups - even made a Caribbean one, "kalaloo" ("or "calaloo"). I was green-crazy for about two weeks. Lost a couple of pounds right away, also, LOL.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,267 Member
    tabletop_joe wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    piperdown44 wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    For me...fried liver. Or just about any way to prepare liver (shudder) :#

    I think I read somewhere that the various religious orders of monks, for fasting or penitence, would be where they did not eat. However, beer was not considered food during that time, so they would drink their yummy beer. THAT I could do for fasting or penitence B)

    This story is probably apocryphal, but it's too good not to share. (Source)
    So you gave up dessert for Lent? Good for you, you wimp! Once upon a time, German monks ate nothing for the entirety of the Lenten fast. No bread, no salad, no fruit—nothing. Beat that.

    How did they survive, you ask? By imbibing large quantities of heavy, calorie rich beer, of course!

    Around 700 years ago, German monks in the town of Einbeck developed a specific style of malty, dark, high alcohol beer to help sustain them during intense periods of fasting. This beer became known as Bock, a corruption of the name Einbeck. Later, discontent with the strength of Bock style beer, monks developed an even stronger variant known as Doppelbock, meaning double Bock. This beer was so laden with nutrition that some dubbed it “liquid bread.”

    Now, these beers were so delicious that the monks began to wonder if they were contrary to the spirit of Lenten penance. Being faithful sons of the Church, they decided to consult the pope. On the journey to Rome, however, the beer was subjected to extreme weather conditions, causing it to spoil and turn sour. When the pope tasted it, he was so appalled by the spoiled beer that he immediately deemed it an excellent Lenten penance.

    I read a great book, The Third Horseman: A Story of Weather, War, and the Famine History Forgot by William Rosen. I could be botching the numbers somewhat, but I believe the book calculated that the average peasant from West/Central Europe (Flanders and surrounding regions) in the 1300's consumed about 2100 calories per day in non-famine times. It sounds like enough until you factor in the sheer amount of daily physical labor, then you realize most folks were slowly starving their whole lives. What's even more remarkable is that up 900 of those calories were from ale or beer--so it wasn't just the relatively wealthy cleric class who made it by on nearly drinks alone during Lent!

    Also, it's not true that people didn't drink water in the Middle Ages. Water was frequently consumed--usually safely too. :)

    average would be key here and I don't think that they were slowly starving but slim and fit.

    We are so used to people not being slim and fit that apparently it is getting equated to starving...
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,600 Member
    jgnatca wrote: »
    I vote for slowly starving. They also didn't have central heating. I am betting they needed 3,000 calories or more daily.

    Yeah. The whole point of peasants in an economic system is to get the maximum work out of that population at minimum cost.

    You don't achieve that by keeping them "slim & fit", able to live to a healthy old age. You do that by undernourishing them at a level that keeps them alive and functioning just through their prime working/breeding years, and encouraging them to breed at levels that keep the cheap labor supply coming.

    Efficient, but inhumane.
  • DX2JX2
    DX2JX2 Posts: 1,921 Member
    “No one can live on foods of penitence.” (- Mollie Katzen)

    I appreciate the sentiment trying to be conveyed but try telling this to people who are actually starving. I guess it's the lack of context but it comes off as very 'let them eat cake'-ish.
  • mjbnj0001
    mjbnj0001 Posts: 1,272 Member
    jgnatca wrote: »
    I vote for slowly starving. They also didn't have central heating. I am betting they needed 3,000 calories or more daily.

    not getting enough calories was prob another reason they had short stature compared to today - no energy or nutrients to grow taller.
  • tabletop_joe
    tabletop_joe Posts: 455 Member
    There was also the horrible practice of baking so-called horse bread. That is bread cut with other non-digestible ingredients--saw dust, grass, straw bits, even sand--used as a filler. So you feel full on bread made from free stuff kicking around the yard, but there's no calories or nutrition and it'll ruin your digestive tract over time. I always think of horse bread when I eat low- and no-calorie products. ;)
  • tabletop_joe
    tabletop_joe Posts: 455 Member
    But at least they were bikini-ready, tee hee.
  • MommaGem2017
    MommaGem2017 Posts: 405 Member
    tabletop_joe wrote: »
    There was also the horrible practice of baking so-called horse bread. That is bread cut with other non-digestible ingredients--saw dust, grass, straw bits, even sand--used as a filler. So you feel full on bread made from free stuff kicking around the yard, but there's no calories or nutrition and it'll ruin your digestive tract over time. I always think of horse bread when I eat low- and no-calorie products. ;)

    Oh my goodness, I've never heard of horse bread before. That sounds horrible :(
  • HeidiCooksSupper
    HeidiCooksSupper Posts: 3,831 Member
    Alatariel75 wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    Speaking of penitence, here is the 1972 Weight Watchers program. Ever wonder why people think weight loss has to be penitential?

    Some highlights:
    You must eat liver at least once a week
    Cheeses are "illegal" if they are soft enough to spread evenly and not hard enough to slice easily. Do not use cheese spreads.
    The skim milk we allow is the instant non-fat dry milk, reconstitute according to label directions; or skim milk labeled either "skimmed milk" or "modified" or "fortified skim milk" with no whole milk solids added. Do not use milk labeled "a skimmed milk product" or "99% fat free." Your daily allowance of evaporated skimmed milk may be diluted with an equal amount of water to make a total of 16 ounces skim milk. The buttermilk may be made from either whole or combination of skim milk and whole milk; Bulgarian buttermilk is not permitted.
    Do not eat or drink the following (except, of course, for "legal" recipes as given in this book):
    Alcoholic beverages, beer, wine
    Bacon or back fat (fat back)
    Butter
    Cake, cookies, crackers, pies
    Candy, chocolate
    Catsup, chili sauce
    Coconut or coconut oil
    Corn
    Cream, sweet or sour
    Cream cheese
    Fried foods
    Fruit, dried, canned in syrup or dietetic
    Ice cream, ice milk, ices and sherbets
    Jams, jellies, or preserves
    Luncheon meats
    Muffins, biscuits
    Non-dairy creamers or toppings
    Olives or olive oils
    Pancakes, waffles
    Peanut butter
    Peanuts, other nuts
    Pizza
    Popcorn, potato chips, pretzels
    Pork products
    Puddings, custards, flavored gelatin desserts
    Raw fish or meat
    Specialty breads
    Salad dressings
    Sardines
    Smoked fish (except finnan haddie and salmon)
    Soda pop, ades, punch
    Soups
    Sugar
    Syrups

    My mum still has the box with all the 70s material in it! Some of the recipe cards are HORRIFIC haahaa

    OH: here's some!! http://www.candyboots.com/wwcards.html

    Oh, boy, does that bring back memories. Fish 5 times a week and liver at least once a week!
  • mjbnj0001
    mjbnj0001 Posts: 1,272 Member
    tabletop_joe wrote: »
    There was also the horrible practice of baking so-called horse bread. That is bread cut with other non-digestible ingredients--saw dust, grass, straw bits, even sand--used as a filler. So you feel full on bread made from free stuff kicking around the yard, but there's no calories or nutrition and it'll ruin your digestive tract over time. I always think of horse bread when I eat low- and no-calorie products. ;)

    wasn't there a 1970s bread sold for high fiber that actually had wood pulp in it?
  • Alatariel75
    Alatariel75 Posts: 18,346 Member
    edited August 2017
    SezxyStef wrote: »
    tabletop_joe wrote: »
    Jruzer wrote: »
    piperdown44 wrote: »
    CSARdiver wrote: »
    Now I'm really curious what penitent foods would be?

    Caster Oil?

    Kale?

    For me...fried liver. Or just about any way to prepare liver (shudder) :#

    I think I read somewhere that the various religious orders of monks, for fasting or penitence, would be where they did not eat. However, beer was not considered food during that time, so they would drink their yummy beer. THAT I could do for fasting or penitence B)

    This story is probably apocryphal, but it's too good not to share. (Source)
    So you gave up dessert for Lent? Good for you, you wimp! Once upon a time, German monks ate nothing for the entirety of the Lenten fast. No bread, no salad, no fruit—nothing. Beat that.

    How did they survive, you ask? By imbibing large quantities of heavy, calorie rich beer, of course!

    Around 700 years ago, German monks in the town of Einbeck developed a specific style of malty, dark, high alcohol beer to help sustain them during intense periods of fasting. This beer became known as Bock, a corruption of the name Einbeck. Later, discontent with the strength of Bock style beer, monks developed an even stronger variant known as Doppelbock, meaning double Bock. This beer was so laden with nutrition that some dubbed it “liquid bread.”

    Now, these beers were so delicious that the monks began to wonder if they were contrary to the spirit of Lenten penance. Being faithful sons of the Church, they decided to consult the pope. On the journey to Rome, however, the beer was subjected to extreme weather conditions, causing it to spoil and turn sour. When the pope tasted it, he was so appalled by the spoiled beer that he immediately deemed it an excellent Lenten penance.

    I read a great book, The Third Horseman: A Story of Weather, War, and the Famine History Forgot by William Rosen. I could be botching the numbers somewhat, but I believe the book calculated that the average peasant from West/Central Europe (Flanders and surrounding regions) in the 1300's consumed about 2100 calories per day in non-famine times. It sounds like enough until you factor in the sheer amount of daily physical labor, then you realize most folks were slowly starving their whole lives. What's even more remarkable is that up 900 of those calories were from ale or beer--so it wasn't just the relatively wealthy cleric class who made it by on nearly drinks alone during Lent!

    Also, it's not true that people didn't drink water in the Middle Ages. Water was frequently consumed--usually safely too. :)

    average would be key here and I don't think that they were slowly starving but slim and fit.

    We are so used to people not being slim and fit that apparently it is getting equated to starving...

    Considering the average peasant in the middle ages would be lucky, if they made it out of childhood, to live to the ripe of age of 45, I don't think "slim and fit" is quite the descriptor that applies.

    At a moderate deficit, it can take a very, very long time to 'starve'. Metabolic adaption, which would have been rife, would have extended that even further. Periodic times of relative plenty would also extend life expectancy. Just because they weren't starving in a swift and linear fashion doesn't mean that they didn't live basically their entire lives in a position of deprivation and deficit.
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