Losing fat and gaining muscle is possible...
Replies
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giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.4 -
Not sure why people state that losing fat and gaining muscle is so black and white. It's definitely a broad range of grey depending on several factors.2
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giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
Thanks, that makes sense. I am curious what minimal newbie gains are? How much are we talking about (what is minimal)?0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »goldthistime wrote: »OP are you speaking from personal experience? If so, I can relate to an extent. I have absolutely made good strength gains in the gym in the beginning of starting a diet/exercise routine, and ultimately seen much more definition. But I would also agree that there is a limit while in a deficit.
Perhaps it is that "newbie gains" are underemphasized here. They made me pretty happy. Maybe the big improvements I saw in the mirror would be minor to someone who is doing bulk/cut cycles. Or maybe the changes I saw in the mirror had much more to do with losing the layer of fat on top than increasing muscle size.
At a certain point I plateaued in my strength training and the only times I seemed to make any progress were when I'd put on a little weight.
Yes I am. I went fron 43 to 35 inch waist in 2 months. Abd made significabt strebgth gains in all my lifts. When i plateau also my only course of action will be recomp. But I aint there yet.
You do know that women don't gain muscle as easily as men right? And that strength gains don't necessarily mean muscle gain3 -
I don't think, even as a newbie, that stating realistic expectations are "negative nancys". I want to know what to expect rather than setting myself up for failure and disappointment. Have I gained a little muscle? Yes. Have a gained strength? Hell yes. Will I be in better shape to have the physique I want when I reach my goals? Yes. All of this is advice from experienced people in these forums.
I think it is a mindset thing- if a beginner is going to get discouraged about not having a ton of gains while eating a deficit in like 14 days (or whatever, I am being dramatic) and stop their progress, then I don't think they were truly ready to do the work it takes to get there at this point. It took me years to even understand that. I admit to wanting the fast and easy and perfect ASAP in the past and quitting many, many times- and anyone trying to soften the truth set me up for larger failures than finally figuring out that I have to want to do it the right (and long) way. IMHO, it was more valuable to see the realistic truth repeatedly than softer lies, especially for me.3 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
Thanks, that makes sense. I am curious what minimal newbie gains are? How much are we talking about (what is minimal)?
Someone who is new to lifting can basically do anything as long as it involves progressive overload that is relatively consistent and will make gains. Those gains can be quite dramatic if a proper program is used and they are able to eat at a surplus - but even if they don't they can still usually see some minimal gains. After a while - for some it's only a few months for others much longer, those easy gains stop and at that point you absolutely will need to be a bit more structured and careful with your routine.2 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
Regarding the bold....
In what world does calorie deficit equal nothing?
Someone eating at a small deficit can easily meet all their nutritional needs (including protein).
Which just leaves the small amount of energy to help build muscle - which can come from stored energy, not just from food intake.4 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
Regarding the bold....
In what world does calorie deficit equal nothing?
Someone eating at a small deficit can easily meet all their nutritional needs (including protein).
Which just leaves the small amount of energy to help build muscle - which can come from stored energy, not just from food intake.
...building muscle is the last thing your body uses stored fat for - it has other plans for that energy that typically involve keeping you alive. Building muscle is last on that priority list... which is why in a deficit it usually doesn't happen.
Deficit = not enough. Which is LESS than nothing in this context. Maintenance would be nothing - as in nothing extra but not having to resort to stored resources (fat) to provide fuel for necessary functions. Recomps tend to "work" at maintenance, albeit slowly, because the body can be convinced to use some of that stored energy to build a little bit of muscle because it doesn't need it for other functions higher on its list.3 -
Actually it's not that many factors.ijsantos2005 wrote: »Not sure why people state that losing fat and gaining muscle is so black and white. It's definitely a broad range of grey depending on several factors.
Newbie to lifting (NEVER lifted weights before)
Athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff
Obese and lifting
The above will benefit mostly on LIMITED GAINS if on a moderate deficit.
Then there's recomp and those who use ENHANCEMENT.
That's about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Actually it's not that many factors.ijsantos2005 wrote: »Not sure why people state that losing fat and gaining muscle is so black and white. It's definitely a broad range of grey depending on several factors.
Newbie to lifting (NEVER lifted weights before)
Athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff
Obese and lifting
The above will benefit mostly on LIMITED GAINS if on a moderate deficit.
Then there's recomp and those who use ENHANCEMENT.
That's about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I can think of three. You pointed out a fourth I believe.
• Training experience
• Amount of stored energy available
• Size of caloric deficit
• Amount of drugs used
Maybe my definition of several is off.0 -
If we're applying this to the general population, the majority would probably fall just under 1 or 2......................obesity/very overweight and possible newbie to lifting. The others would only be a small percentage of the population. Which is why I state that's it's pretty black and white if we're talking about gaining muscle on a calorie deficit.ijsantos2005 wrote: »
Actually it's not that many factors.ijsantos2005 wrote: »Not sure why people state that losing fat and gaining muscle is so black and white. It's definitely a broad range of grey depending on several factors.
Newbie to lifting (NEVER lifted weights before)
Athlete returning to lifting after a long layoff
Obese and lifting
The above will benefit mostly on LIMITED GAINS if on a moderate deficit.
Then there's recomp and those who use ENHANCEMENT.
That's about it.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I can think of three. You pointed out a fourth I believe.
• Training experience
• Amount of stored energy available
• Size of caloric deficit
• Amount of drugs used
Maybe my definition of several is off.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
I just started eating differently but I'm also a crossfitter I have definitely noticed that the chub on my tummy is going down, but i have alos noticed that my arms are getting more muscular.1 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
I just started eating differently but I'm also a crossfitter I have definitely noticed that the chub on my tummy is going down, but i have alos noticed that my arms are getting more muscular.
So much this. My arms have gone from 12 to 13.75 while my waist has shrunk 8 inches. In a big deficit the first month not so much the second month. My weight had been steady for the past 2 weeks as i think I am eating close to my mainetence on most days. But my belly is still getting thinner, just very slowly now.1 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.1 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
I was super morbidly obese (290lb at 5'2"), and by incorporating strength training I've preserved a lot of muscle. Tbh it looks like I'm currently slowly gaining muscle as I lose the fat as I'm trying to keep to a very tiny deficit, but it would also be easy to believe that this muscle in my legs was "grown" rather than being revealed as the weight has dropped.
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giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
First off, that is quite the generalization. I am sure many of them do.
Also, I don't see recomp recommended to someone who is overweight? Not sure where you are seeing that.
I don't see anything wrong with giving someone options... I will usually tell people to lift while they lose weight, and if they get close to goal or at goal and they are still not happy they can reevaluate and go to recomp or bulking. What is wrong with telling people how the process works to get to their goal? If someone asked me how to get from point A to point C.. I would tell them, not give them directions from point A to B then be like "don't worry about C right now, you aren't there yet". Honestly, I don't see why you think that is so discouraging.3 -
giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
I honestly have no idea what discouraging remarks you are talking about. I see recommendations for newbies to weight train all the time! And it is made clear that they will get stronger, better looking and get a few newbie gains. What could possibly be wrong with that?
I do see people correcting the perception that a woman doing cardio, in a deficit, and thinks they are not losing weight when the suggestion is put forward that they are probably gaining muscle. As it should. That idea is absurd.2 -
giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
I honestly have no idea what discouraging remarks you are talking about. I see recommendations for newbies to weight train all the time! And it is made clear that they will get stronger, better looking and get a few newbie gains. What could possibly be wrong with that?
I do see people correcting the perception that a woman doing cardio, in a deficit, and thinks they are not losing weight when the suggestion is put forward that they are probably gaining muscle. As it should. That idea is absurd.
^^This.
You see so many threads on here "I just started working out, eating 1200 calories and I'm not losing weight" to be met with someone saying "maybe you're putting on muscle, which weighs more than fat"....from there it's pointed out that at that caloric intake, the individual most likely isn't gaining muscle...or if they were not at a 1:1 ratio to balance out fat loss.
Also, I've never seen re-comp advised to anyone who's obese. Those threads ususally go....I'm 5'7" 135 lbs and want to get down to 119 because I'd like to have a little more muscle definition and less fat on my stomach...shortly there after it would be advised the OP is probably more interested in a recomp than trying to lose 16 more lbs to get to their asthetic goals
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giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
What is discouraging about saying:
"You're not necessarily making measurable gains in muscle mass, but indeed maintaining the muscle you have while stripping the fat away to see those muscles you're maintaining all while getting stronger"0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
What is discouraging about saying:
"You're not necessarily making measurable gains in muscle mass, but indeed maintaining the muscle you have while stripping the fat away to see those muscles you're maintaining all while getting stronger"
yeah, I don't find that discouraging at all...0 -
Yeah, mostly that is said in response to 40+ year old women who eat 1000 calories per day and whose only form of exercise is the occasional jog through the park (exaggeration).
For people like that, muscle gain just isn't happening but there still tends to be people who tell them "oh you're probably gaining muscle, that's why you're not losing!".2 -
OP, it looks from your picture like you are fairly young. I'm no expert in any of this, but my understanding is that young men are biologically predisposed to build muscle - if it's easy for anyone, it's easy for guys in their twenties. And I have seen many threads from young men who are encouraged to lift heavy as they lose, because not only will it protect the muscle they have, but they might very well be able to build new muscle as well.
People posting that you aren't building muscle while eating in a deficit are usually replying in threads about women who are eating low calorie and not following a lifting program. It is much harder for a woman to build muscle than it is for a guy, and even more difficult as we get older. As a woman in my 40's, even if I worked with a PT and a dietician to get everything 100% on point, I would probably only build a pound of muscle a month. It would be much more efficient for me to just focus on losing the fat first, then focus on either recomping or building muscle once I reach goal weight.
You need to keep in mind the age and the gender of the person in question when advising about muscle building expectations, the results you are seeing are possible for you because you are young and male. Congrats on your success so far BTW0 -
But that DOESN'T mean you're gaining muscle. Anyone can look more muscular by just losing fat.giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
I just started eating differently but I'm also a crossfitter I have definitely noticed that the chub on my tummy is going down, but i have alos noticed that my arms are getting more muscular.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Well, no. If that's what you're trying to say, then say it. You should have said "if you lose body fat, you'll look more muscular without having to try to gain muscle."giburns5388 wrote: »giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
I would also think that someone who is extremely obese probably has a somewhat sizable muscle base given that it has to hold up their larger frame and that they have been eating in a surplus for an extended period of time. If they can lose weight and maintain a good portion of muscle while doing so, it will look like they have gained muscle, but in reality, they have probably still lost muscle in their deficit.
This is what I am trying to say. People that are overweight dont care about LBM. If they lose fat and there muscles start showing then they cant start worrying about recomps. Let them get to that point without the discouraging remarks.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
OP, it looks from your picture like you are fairly young. I'm no expert in any of this, but my understanding is that young men are biologically predisposed to build muscle - if it's easy for anyone, it's easy for guys in their twenties. And I have seen many threads from young men who are encouraged to lift heavy as they lose, because not only will it protect the muscle they have, but they might very well be able to build new muscle as well.
People posting that you aren't building muscle while eating in a deficit are usually replying in threads about women who are eating low calorie and not following a lifting program. It is much harder for a woman to build muscle than it is for a guy, and even more difficult as we get older. As a woman in my 40's, even if I worked with a PT and a dietician to get everything 100% on point, I would probably only build a pound of muscle a month. It would be much more efficient for me to just focus on losing the fat first, then focus on either recomping or building muscle once I reach goal weight.
You need to keep in mind the age and the gender of the person in question when advising about muscle building expectations, the results you are seeing are possible for you because you are young and male. Congrats on your success so far BTW
Im 37 not sure if i still classify as young.0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »OP, it looks from your picture like you are fairly young. I'm no expert in any of this, but my understanding is that young men are biologically predisposed to build muscle - if it's easy for anyone, it's easy for guys in their twenties. And I have seen many threads from young men who are encouraged to lift heavy as they lose, because not only will it protect the muscle they have, but they might very well be able to build new muscle as well.
People posting that you aren't building muscle while eating in a deficit are usually replying in threads about women who are eating low calorie and not following a lifting program. It is much harder for a woman to build muscle than it is for a guy, and even more difficult as we get older. As a woman in my 40's, even if I worked with a PT and a dietician to get everything 100% on point, I would probably only build a pound of muscle a month. It would be much more efficient for me to just focus on losing the fat first, then focus on either recomping or building muscle once I reach goal weight.
You need to keep in mind the age and the gender of the person in question when advising about muscle building expectations, the results you are seeing are possible for you because you are young and male. Congrats on your success so far BTW
Im 37 not sure if i still classify as young.
Well, you look young for your age in your profile picture
0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »OP, it looks from your picture like you are fairly young. I'm no expert in any of this, but my understanding is that young men are biologically predisposed to build muscle - if it's easy for anyone, it's easy for guys in their twenties. And I have seen many threads from young men who are encouraged to lift heavy as they lose, because not only will it protect the muscle they have, but they might very well be able to build new muscle as well.
People posting that you aren't building muscle while eating in a deficit are usually replying in threads about women who are eating low calorie and not following a lifting program. It is much harder for a woman to build muscle than it is for a guy, and even more difficult as we get older. As a woman in my 40's, even if I worked with a PT and a dietician to get everything 100% on point, I would probably only build a pound of muscle a month. It would be much more efficient for me to just focus on losing the fat first, then focus on either recomping or building muscle once I reach goal weight.
You need to keep in mind the age and the gender of the person in question when advising about muscle building expectations, the results you are seeing are possible for you because you are young and male. Congrats on your success so far BTW
Im 37 not sure if i still classify as young.
Well, you look young for your age in your profile picture
Ty0 -
giburns5388 wrote: »Im 37 not sure if i still classify as young.
LOL!
Demographically, you're older than some but younger than most.
I'm 66 and a lot older than you but still look and feel a lot younger than my years.
1 -
giburns5388 wrote: »For you hardcore guys that are in this for awhile please stop telling people its unlikely. It is highly unlikely for people like you who are near optimum. But for us beginners its really easy with diet and new to weight lifting.
Being overweight myself, I have to agree with you. I've seen the post of "you won't gain muscle mass on a deficit" so many times so I assumed it was right and exercised just for fat loss. Pre-pregnancy I had not biked in over 9 months and weight 210lbs or lower. My son is now 1 and I lost weight while being in quite a deficit and started biking again after stopping for over 2 years and started squats and my pre-pregnancy clothes almost all fit and my thighs are getting really hard. So I'm wondering if the opposite could be true?
You are losing body fat, so the muscles underneath are beginning to show. Building strength (increasing the efficiency of the muscles you have) is not the same as building additional muscle tissue. You can get stronger without building more muscle. And muscles need resistance training and recovery (in addition to adequate nutrition) to build additional lean mass. You're not going to do that on the treadmill.
Outside of minimal newbie gains, often for folks who are overweight, muscle is built with a calorie surplus, not a deficit. You can't build something out of nothing.
But that doesn't mean you won't have good results, and that you shouldn't keep on doing what you're doing that's working for you. Keep at it! It just doesn't mean what you think it means.
Thanks, that makes sense. I am curious what minimal newbie gains are? How much are we talking about (what is minimal)?
For context on potential we are talking about.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/778012
This is study of males - so better hormones for effect. Women about 1/2 the rate as men.
Maintenance eating, so not as bad as deficit eating.
3.5 lb increase in LBM (which includes muscle and water and anything non-fat) while the same loss of body fat.
This was in 16 weeks.
So for woman, expect around 3.5 lbs in 32 weeks (8 months) if eating in maintenance.
Less if in deficit with enough fat to lose.
Even less if less fat to lose.
And this is LBM, actual muscle would be less.
So as it's been mentioned - between the potential LBM gains and the fat loss, how much fat could be lost in 8 months even at slow 1/2 lb weekly - 16 lbs.
The fat loss is going to show off your strong muscles a whole lot more than any gains would show them off.
Expect not much unless you are nailing all the factors required (great progressive overload routine, great macros, minor deficit, great sleep and recovery, little stress, ect) - and just be pleasantly surprised if you actually do get some.1
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