Heavy lifting while half marathon training - foolish?
Options
Replies
-
GiddyupTim wrote: »Oh, boy.
We have been through this before.
Please look up Pete Stables. He recommends running only twice a week for people who are lifting heavy -- and one of those runs he says should be only a 30 minute run.
That kind of training might prepare you for run-walking a half marathon.
But squats, deadlifts, and bench press? No. It takes too much out of you, and your legs are heavy and slow when you try to run the next day, or later that day.
You do realize Pete Stables is a powerlifter and ultramarathon trail runner. Looking him up should show that both can be done, if you pick your drug stack smartly.
She (the OP) is already handling more than enough volume of running to complete a half without resorting to a walk/run while still lifting. A few tweaks and she'll have 0 issues moving forward.
I fixed it for you.5 -
Here's an recent article in the journal Sports Medicine from an Australian researcher in which he says that, based on the evidence, his opinion is that resistance training can be detrimental to endurance training.
Reason, he says, is that one recovers from a long run or bicycle ride in about 24 hours. But, it can takes several days, actually, to recover from a single 40-60 minute bout of resistance training.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0758-3
Re: Pete Stables
Listen, nobody said you can't be a good tennis player and a good skier. Or a good distance runner and a good basketball player. Of course you can. Over the years.
But fundamental economics tells us that if you spend it one place, you don't have it to spend in another place. There are trade-offs.
I would love to have it all too. But you just can't have it all. Over the short term, you can put enough effort into your running to get better at running, or you can put enough time into the gym to get better at lifting. But it is REALLY, REALLY hard to do both.
And here is what Pete Stables says on his webpage in his article called "Chalk Dust and Trail Runs: Cardio for Powerlifters."
"Only run twice per week. Once will be a 30-minute heart rate Zone 4 jaunt on the road and the other will be a 60-90 minute Zone 2-3.5 trail walk/run. Supplement another two days with a 20-minute Zone 2 recovery row and a short interval session on the bike."
That amount of running might be adequate to get ready for a race if you are a professional athlete or trainer, who has been working out and developing for many, many years. But, for those of us who are trying to get ready to run a distance we have never run before, or haven't run for a few years, it won't work very well.0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »Here's an recent article in the journal Sports Medicine from an Australian researcher in which he says that, based on the evidence, his opinion is that resistance training can be detrimental to endurance training.
Reason, he says, is that one recovers from a long run or bicycle ride in about 24 hours. But, it can takes several days, actually, to recover from a single 40-60 minute bout of resistance training.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-017-0758-3
Re: Pete Stables
Listen, nobody said you can't be a good tennis player and a good skier. Or a good distance runner and a good basketball player. Of course you can. Over the years.
But fundamental economics tells us that if you spend it one place, you don't have it to spend in another place. There are trade-offs.
I would love to have it all too. But you just can't have it all. Over the short term, you can put enough effort into your running to get better at running, or you can put enough time into the gym to get better at lifting. But it is REALLY, REALLY hard to do both.
And here is what Pete Stables says on his webpage in his article called "Chalk Dust and Trail Runs: Cardio for Powerlifters."
"Only run twice per week. Once will be a 30-minute heart rate Zone 4 jaunt on the road and the other will be a 60-90 minute Zone 2-3.5 trail walk/run. Supplement another two days with a 20-minute Zone 2 recovery row and a short interval session on the bike."
That amount of running might be adequate to get ready for a race if you are a professional athlete or trainer, who has been working out and developing for many, many years. But, for those of us who are trying to get ready to run a distance we have never run before, or haven't run for a few years, it won't work very well.
We are on the same side. Except maybe for about it working for average people. I'm not saying a person is going to be elite at both, but the average person can do well enough. I ran a half this spring doing 1 run a week. Didn't walk & finished in 1:54. That's a far cry from my PR when all I did was run, but it's still not horrible. I have my 2nd trail ultra of the summer in 4 weeks. Last weekend I PR'd my deadlift the day after a long run. I think we agree more than we don't. While I am certainly encouraging that both can be done, maybe I was a little lax in saying that there are compromises, but I don't feel the compromises are enough to force someone to choose or discourage them from doing both.0 -
1:54 is a great finish time.0
-
My personal experience running Starting Strength and training for endurance cycling was that as my mileage increased, I just couldn't recover. I wanted to do well in my event, not just finish it. I continued to lift, but not "heavy" (as in low rep at a high % of max weight) and ultimately dropped it to once per week.
Now when I'm in cycling season I typically only lift a couple times per week and it's mostly geared towards being a better cyclist...I do a lot of plyo work and some lighter Olympic lifting with some other things thrown in there. I use the off-season to hit the gym with more volume and "heavy" work.
Granted I'm 43 and I just don't recover like I used to...
ETA: my trainer/coach is a retired professional BMX and Supercross racer and still races competitively, though not on the pro circuit...he lifts in season, but it's more moderate...he is a competitive power lifter in the off season and holds the state squat record for his weight class...he trains seasonally...1 -
I think most recreational athletes will find it difficult to maintain both a heavy lifting schedule and endurance running training once the mileage increases significantly beyond what is "normal" for them. I think it's probably the same reason a lot of us struggle to maintain weight (or even end up gaining a little) as the mileage ramps up. Long runs require a lot of recovery for most of us. I think most people will end up having to back off on heavy lifting (particularly legs) as the mileage gets higher. Not everyone-I'm sure there are people who manage both. There are also people who somehow lose weight when marathon training. As you said, give it a shot and adjust as you need to. But I think it's reasonable to assume that if you're planning to follow a traditional half marathon training plan (running 4-5 days a week with gradually increasing mileage), it's also likely that you'll find it challenging to do both as the mileage increases and the long runs approach double digits.0
-
Done it dozens of times. Harder, yes. Bump up the cals for optimal recovery. Have fun!1
-
Granted I'm in no way a fast runner and really only run for the challenge rather than to compete against anyone other than myself, but I both lift heavy (for me) and run long distance. In fact I ran a half marathon last Sunday and while I was still slow by most people's standards I took 50 minutes off my time and ran all but the last 0.5km.
Up until the school holidays started I was running 5/3/1, then as I couldn't consistently get to the gym I was running a lower weight/high volume 100 rep challenge, probably moving at least double the overall weight in a session. Lifting heavy has strengthened my legs no end, which along with the delights my PT incorporates has increased both my speed and endurance.
I also eat well, 2000-2500 Calories to lose 1lb/week, with plenty of protein, carbs and good fats. The week before the half I ate at maintenance, so up to 4000 Calories and the couple of days before I probably about 500 above maintenance
The only real concession I made as far as lifting goes is that apart from a body pump session (very low weight, but very high rep and fast) on the Monday, I only did upper body work for the week running up to the actual race (well there were more than a few lunges and squats in PT and class) and apart from stretching and foam rollering rested the day before. Was back at body pump the next day and back to squatting >bodyweight on Wednesday, today I'll be deadlifting way above bodyweight. (Then doing parkrun tomorrow).
1 -
I'm not a particularly fast runner so it's more for fun. I do run about 20-25 miles a week at the moment so I'm not starting from scratch but will obviously need to increase my mileage pretty significantly
This was one of my first questions. If you are mostly running for the enjoyment and not trying to kill a new PB or any fast time, things get a lot easier. TBH I don't think you would have to change much at all, other than splitting your current mileage up a little different maybe.
The first and only official HM I ran involved zero training over our regular military stuff. I took a couple rest days before the run, and made sure my last lifting day was upper body to avoid a leg day. I think these days a lot of people look at the training methods used by the faster and better runners, and assume they MUST do it to run any race. Though there is no harm in longer term training for any race, for quite a few people not worried about a quick time, all they have to do is get out and race.0 -
Heavy lifting while half marathon training - foolish?
Nope - not foolish.
Possibly ambitious, good possibility that one will compromise the other, especially leg muscle recovery.
Possibility that you can sustain both types of training short term but not long term, that point may come as your mileage ramps up.
I cycle and lift and do get training and recovery conflicts, especially when my volume goes up in the Spring or when tackling long distance or particularly intense riding/training. That's the compromise I make and have to prioritise according to upcoming goals. I basically do almost no leg strength work in the gym when I'm doing my big cycling volume months. Upper body and core work isn't directly affected but accumulated fatigue can mean even that is in "maintenance mode" rather than making gains. But I'm an old fart.....
Really how you feel and how you progress is your best guide as being possible for you could be very different to possible, or even foolish, for others.
0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »Yes you can. People do it all the time. Rest becomes more important, nutrition becomes more important, and scheduling. I assume you are just looking to finish & not set a blazing speed?
No,
You are going to find it really hard to get in the running mileage you need if you are trying to lift heavy three -- even just two -- times per week. You won't have enough time for recovery.
You can try it for a couple of weeks if you want. I think you'll see. Those runs the day after you lift will be really hard, really slow, and really miserable. And, after a couple of weeks, you will stop progressing in one activity or the other. Maybe both.
PS See the other comments above. Almost every one says: 'Yeah, I've done it. But I cut way back on my lifting' or 'Sure, but I stopped doing legs while I was training for my race.'
I've done it many times with running two halfs on the same weekend back to back days on more than one occasion.
It certainly possible with proper training including rest, conditioning, and nutrition.
It doesn't mean one will excell optimally at either, but nonetheless it's possible.1 -
if its foolish to do it before a half then I certainly should't be doing it on my training for a full. oops. Was deadlift day and I couldn't miss that.4
-
I am a turtle pace runner. I trained for my first half this spring. Gains were much slower on lifts, but they were still there. I had to face the fact that calories can only go so many places at once, and while training for the half, I made running the priority. If I didn't feel I had the energy for both, running happened and lifting didn't. I am also with others in that my legs were taking enough of a beating, and so leg work definitely took a back seat. I lowered weight and focused on form corrections.
Currently on a running ban from a running injury this summer. And my lifting is LOVING the focus and attention.
You can definitely do both. I think you just need to decide for a period which activity is your priority. It lets you know which one takes a back seat if you are short on time or fuel. If running is the priority, be prepared for terribly slow lifting gains. They still happen, just not as quickly.0 -
I CrossFit 4 days a week and run for 2. One shorter between 5 and 10km and the other longer between 10km and 10miles. It isn't my first half and I have been a runner for approx 5 years and have a good base running ability now. I have got a lot faster due to my strength gains in CrossFit. My CrossFit also hasn't suffered as during training as I have recently PB'd my squat and deadlift. I program to make sure I don't do heavy squats after a running day. Proper nutrition, good sleep and an understanding of what your body needs and wants is important.
Sounds like you run plenty already to me.1 -
lsutton484 wrote: »if its foolish to do it before a half then I certainly should't be doing it on my training for a full. oops. Was deadlift day and I couldn't miss that.
Your mileage at the moment probably isn't any higher than OPs though...1 -
this is very true and a fact that I'm going to start regretting very soon.TavistockToad wrote: »lsutton484 wrote: »if its foolish to do it before a half then I certainly should't be doing it on my training for a full. oops. Was deadlift day and I couldn't miss that.
Your mileage at the moment probably isn't any higher than OPs though...0 -
GiddyupTim wrote: »Yes you can. People do it all the time. Rest becomes more important, nutrition becomes more important, and scheduling. I assume you are just looking to finish & not set a blazing speed?
No,
You are going to find it really hard to get in the running mileage you need if you are trying to lift heavy three -- even just two -- times per week. You won't have enough time for recovery.
You can try it for a couple of weeks if you want. I think you'll see. Those runs the day after you lift will be really hard, really slow, and really miserable. And, after a couple of weeks, you will stop progressing in one activity or the other. Maybe both.
PS See the other comments above. Almost every one says: 'Yeah, I've done it. But I cut way back on my lifting' or 'Sure, but I stopped doing legs while I was training for my race.'
I've done it many times with running two halfs on the same weekend back to back days on more than one occasion.
It certainly possible with proper training including rest, conditioning, and nutrition.
It doesn't mean one will excell optimally at either, but nonetheless it's possible.
Of course you can do it.
Shoot, we all want to be fast. We all want to be strong. We all want to be agile and attractive.
Many of us want to work hard and are not averse to suffering.
I lift. I do Crossfit. I run. I play tennis and bike. I ski. I used to play soccer.
But I would be foolish to think there aren't trade-offs for every thing I do.
Because tennis is competitive, I can tell you that, without a doubt, I do not play as well as I can the day after an 8-mile run.
Are you going to tell me that, the day after a heavy leg day in the gym, with squats and deadlifts, that your legs are not going to be tired the next day? Perhaps for two days, in you went really hard? (The scientific evidence actually shows it is two days or more.)
Or tell me that the day after, when your legs are tired, you are not going to be a slower runner?
We all need recovery. It is a fact.
I stand by what I said. Go back and read all the posts. Many of them say: "Yes, you can do both. I do." But, most of those also say: "Er....Well, I cut back on my lifting when my biking season ramps up" or "Actually, I don't do legs much during the race season" or "I do both, but I don't squat the day after a long run."
We want it all. Doesn't mean we can have it all.0 -
So I've been doing really well with my lifting lately and getting pretty strong, I think. This weeks lifts have been 8 reps 80kg squats & 92.5kg deadlifts.
I've just been persuaded to sign up for a half marathon with a friend (for disclosure I've ran half and full marathons before but not those distanced for the last 3 years).
Can I realistically continue with progressive overload in my strength training while I increase my running mileage or will I have to put it on the backburner until after the race?
@Keira08 - I'm going to weigh in on the same side as @GiddyupTim but hopefully a bit gentler.
It is possible to lift and run. The open question is, how close to your limit do you push each activity? If you are lifting as much as you possibly can, you won't run as well as you possibly can. If you run as well as you possibly can, you won't lift as much as you possibly can. If you try to have both, you are likely to have a learning experience, i.e. injury.
At one time, I could deadlift a bit more than you are doing, for 3 sets of 6. I could squat not quite as much as you are doing, for 3 sets of 10. And then I became a runner. And I ran myself into injury several times, but that's not the point here.
As I learned how to run and not injure myself, a couple things became apparent: I could not lift heavy and run high volume; but I needed to do some strength training to help prevent running injury. The compromises I made included giving up deadlifts entirely and reducing my squats to less than half the weight I had been doing. For long distance running, *consistency* with the weights is more important than *intensity* of the weights.
That having been said, I've made the choice to focus on running. I am, when uninjured, very competitive in my age group locally and middle of the pack in my age group for USATF national events.
So if I wanted to be able to deadlift 92.5 kg and squat 80 kg, what would that mean for my running? I have to run fewer miles, but maybe not too few to support a half marathon. I'd have to do a lot less speed work for running. And I'd have to accept slower half marathon times. Instead of running a routine half marathon in 1:30 to 1:33, maybe I'd have to run it in 1:39 to 1:45. That's a *guess*, because I haven't actually tried it; but I know how much heavy lower body lifting beat me up and what kind of recovery I needed. That would cut into my quality running time, which would mean I wouldn't be prepared to properly *race* a half marathon.
That having been said, I have long maintained that someone who runs 30 miles per week including a long run of at least 10 miles once a week can pretty much enter any half marathon that looks interesting and complete it. They might not have their fastest time, but finishing it would not be in question.
So you make your choices. Do you want to lift heavy and just try to finish a half marathon, without necessarily having a very good time? Or do you want to have a good-for-you finishing time in the half marathon, and back off the lifting? Neither choice is right or wrong. What you do depends on your goals and priorities.
If you were talking about a full marathon instead of a half, I'd say you had a serious risk of failure to complete the marathon by training while lifting heavy; but it seems to me that it should be possible to complete a half (with reduced performance) while still lifting heavy. The wild card is, if you've never run the distance you don't yet know how your body will react to distance running stress and lifting stress in the same time frame. So maybe you're okay, and maybe you're not. You don't know till you try.
Disclosure: At my peak of lifting, I could routinely deadlift 225 lbs. and squat 165 lbs. (102 kg and 75 kg, respectively) Right now I'm on the couch with an annoying ankle problem; but when uninjured I don't do deadlifts and I routinely squat 75 lbs. (34 kg). The squats do not make me sore the next day, but they are sufficient to support my running habit. Then again, when I was primarily a weight lifter I did single leg calf raises on a step with a maximum of 15 lbs. (6.5 kg); as a distance runner, I was doing them with 50 lbs. (22kg) The calf raises are more important to my running than deadlifts are.
2 -
I trained for a ultra half (14.5 miles) while doing crossfit and running 25-40 miles 6 days per week. I believe the crossfit and weight lifting helped alot...especially since it was a trail run and was all hills at a higher elevation then I was use to. You might want to look into what is more important to you...on days of longer runs, I did lighter weight or if I was sore/tired from running I did lighter weight. I actually see alot of running plans including cross training on days you don't run.0
-
tl;dr
I have done it with 2 halfs completed this year one month a part. It all boils down to balancing your nutrition, your running and lifting. How I train will not be the same for another, how much recovery you need determines many aspects, I am also older I am sure (pushing 49 in a few weeks).
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 922 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions