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You dont need to calorie count
Morgaen73
Posts: 2,817 Member
I've heard this said in the forums a few times, along with "just eat intuitively" and "eat LCHF" When I asked how much I need to eat with LCHF I was tols "eat untill you are full. It's very calorie dense so you get full more quickly"
Here is the problem with eating intuitively ... for some people it is not intuitive.
I am never full. Yes, I'm constantly hungry. I am either hungry or I eat until I'm nauseous. If I had to eat a piece of cheese to full me up, I would eat the whole block.
I did an experiment this weekend. I didn't log. I decided that I've been on MFP for long enough to judge how much I should eat without measuring.
So, Friday (I measured until after lunch) ... eating little bits at a time and using the "am I still hungry test" I was still hungry after I ate my "modest" portions. Lunch was 1000 kcal btw and I was still hungry.
Saturday ... had a modest breakfast of scrambled eggs and toast after my workout. Small bites during the day and we went to a bbq the evening where I had 1 beer and also ate moderately.
Sunday, the same thing. Ate moderately (according to me). Keeping to the "am I still hungry" test.
So, very optimistically I climb on the scale this morning ... 3kg heavier than Friday morning.
Now I know the following contributed
1. I haven had a poop since Thursday
2. Water weight ... but I have had my full water requirement every day so there is no reason why my body would hold back water
So yeah ... clearly some people need to count calories for the rest of their lives.
Here is the problem with eating intuitively ... for some people it is not intuitive.
I am never full. Yes, I'm constantly hungry. I am either hungry or I eat until I'm nauseous. If I had to eat a piece of cheese to full me up, I would eat the whole block.
I did an experiment this weekend. I didn't log. I decided that I've been on MFP for long enough to judge how much I should eat without measuring.
So, Friday (I measured until after lunch) ... eating little bits at a time and using the "am I still hungry test" I was still hungry after I ate my "modest" portions. Lunch was 1000 kcal btw and I was still hungry.
Saturday ... had a modest breakfast of scrambled eggs and toast after my workout. Small bites during the day and we went to a bbq the evening where I had 1 beer and also ate moderately.
Sunday, the same thing. Ate moderately (according to me). Keeping to the "am I still hungry" test.
So, very optimistically I climb on the scale this morning ... 3kg heavier than Friday morning.
Now I know the following contributed
1. I haven had a poop since Thursday
2. Water weight ... but I have had my full water requirement every day so there is no reason why my body would hold back water
So yeah ... clearly some people need to count calories for the rest of their lives.
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Replies
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I'm pretty sure I will. For the simple reason that I have some spatial perception issues. Like, you know in geometry when they show you an unfolded box and ask you to determine which shape represents what it would look like if folded? I can't do it. I also can't eyeball a scoop of rice and tell you if it's one cup or two.
Also, I have no doubt that when exposed to foods that I... moderate reluctantly (as in, yes, I can stop at 4 oz of potatoes, but oh if I had the calories, I'd love to have more), without the scale to keep me accountable, my modest portions are going to creep up.
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I feel that I also don't have that intuitive fullness meter that I can trust. Since calorie counting is so easy for me it makes sense to use the tool instead of guessing and being unhappy with my results.
After logging for a couple of years, I could probably eat okay by now without logging because I know roughly how many calories are in the food I typically eat and what portions for me should be. That is still not relying on feeling full or hungry.
Some people don't need to use the tool of calorie counting to manage their weight. Some of us do. Pick what helps you.10 -
I will count even if I learn - In the past I have been very capable to unlearn my portion sizes again. Not logging leads to weightgain for me8
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They don't need to count calories to lose weight, I do. I can get away with not logging when I'm maintaining, but I still "count calories" in my head and watch the scale for quick adjustments. My hunger signals are weird and on some days I'm capable of eating 2000 calories in one meal, feeling full in the stomach, but hungry. On normal appetite days I NEED to leave the table hungry after I've had a meal I know from experience will satiate me eventually because my satiety signals take up to an hour to catch up. Being full when I'm done with a meal without going way over calories is rare and unpredictable. I tried to keep notes to see if certain kinds of foods help with that, but I couldn't. There are foods that help me feel full longer, but not sooner. Eating until I'm no longer hungry is not an option because it's a sure way to overeat.
As for low carb, the portions are TINY. I could NEVER feel full on them even after my usual 30-60 minutes wait. A keto Chicken Kiev is 600 calories for just one chicken breast without any side dish, that's no more than 150-200 grams of food. I need at least 4x that to feel full and leafy greens won't cut it (leafy greens never fill up for some reason unless they're on top of something like rice or as a part of a dish I know fills me up). I'm baffled at the ability of people to feel full on a keto diet.
Raw vegan diet was another thing I tried to document. A lot of food, and I feel full in the stomach, but not in the head. I need a little bit of fat to feel satisfied (not a lot) and going very very low fat was a disaster for my satiety where my stomach is exploding but I'm still hungry somehow. I also noticed cooked foods satiate me better, probably psychological.
Some people are capable of eating intuitively and unconsciously compensating with extra NEAT on days they overeat slightly so any inaccuracies do not have as big of an effect on their weight. I don't have that reaction. If anything, I'm less active on days I overeat unless I intentionally introduce more activity, which is why I try to always pay attention to my day to day activity level and correct whenever it starts degrading.
Some people just have certain intuitive mechanisms that help them regulate their calories, all they need to do is find a way of eating that triggers these mechanisms. I feel I got dealt a bad had in that regard, so calorie counting will always be in the cards for me.13 -
I don't enjoy calorie counting but can't eat intuitively or to hunger signals - well I can but I would be enormous!
There's a third choice which is conscious/thoughtful eating. It's what I've done for the majority of my adult life.
I'm calorie aware and think about how much I actually need as opposed to how much I want to eat but don't log my food. Casual monitoring of my weight trend has an impact on my "how much I need" decisions. I've got a variety of tools to reduce calories to correct a persistent upward trend before it gets out of hand.
For me calorie counting was a temporary but useful interlude to get from the level where I maintained my weight but overweight for 20 years to maintaining weight in the right range.
It's still there as a tool/skill if I want the precision to be a certain weight at a certain date and the educational benefits remain long after you stop logging.
But if I had to calorie count to maintain my weight it would be a small price to pay in terms of investment of time.14 -
I fear that the goal of being able to manage "intuitive eating" puts a lot of pressure on many people. If you're overweight, what's "intuitively enough", is obviously too much. And that's not something which makes that individual a freak - so many are overweight now, that we can't think of getting overweight as simply a personal flaw. We have, naturally, excess appetite in order to fill up in times of plenty, but no times of famine to empty the stores. The food we are surrounded by is not just a lot, it's calorie dense, easy to eat, made to be irrestistible, heavily marketed, and supported by a culture that values indulgence, fast, cheap and easy, and individualism, and frowns on modesty, effort, reason, patience, and at the same time tells us that we have to be like everybody else - that means thin - and avoid disease, by jumping through complicated hoops and loops, but in short just by abstaining from everything we like. Many people use food to cope with stress, and that conflict, with the added feeling of defeat of using eating as a coping mechanism, creates stress for many. And we don't have to move to get anything done, we have to make a conscious effort to even get any exercise at all.
Some of it has to do with habits and what you perceive as normal - I have to "translate" what I think others think of as "full", into what I think of as "a little full". And this is after I've weighed and portioned, mindfully, and eaten mindfully. If I eat from a bag or box or bush, I have to count.
Calorie counting with MFP was a great tool for me to learn to eat mindfully and come up with a practical way of eating that meets my needs for fuel and pleasure, good health and normal weight. I still plan and log my meals, but I don't focus on calories so much.13 -
Thanks everyone
It;s great to know I'm not alone. 6 -
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dutchandkiwi wrote: »I will count even if I learn - In the past I have been very capable to unlearn my portion sizes again. Not logging leads to weightgain for me
I will also be counting and logging (or keeping some type of record), every day for life. As this is the first ime I have been a consistent weight, for any length of time, for about 30 years. The weight gain has been for different reasons; pregnancies, ill health, becoming disabled and life/activity levels changing overnight, bad food choices (not bad foods, but to many of high calorie foods and no balance.) I was either "on a diet" and would successfully lose some or all of my excess weight, but then stop because I'd reach goal or I'd have a health flareups up. Then "stop dieting" and every time , I have always regained some or all of weight lost.
This time is different because tracking on MFP is so easy and I can adjust daily, if need be to fit my lifestyle and balancing healthy choices.
At the moment I'm still eating fewer calories to lose a few more pounds, but I also have days at maintenance, to suit my life. I have also learnt about suitable maintenance levels for me. As being disabled has altered calories out for me. Tracking has really improved my diet, my health and is reflected in blood test results. For a few moments daily, it's become a habit (a bit like brushing my teeth.) Why stop, when I'm reaping the benefits of using this tool.5 -
Thanks everyone that took the time to share.0
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I'd like to think I can maintain when I get there intuitively but I'm a realist and whilst I have maintained in the past, it was overweight. So I'll give it a go but if my weight creeps up I'll log again, even if it's just casually to make sure I am largely where I should be.
I like food. I like eating a lot of it. Letting go of the reins entirely could be a disaster!9 -
I don't enjoy calorie counting but can't eat intuitively or to hunger signals - well I can but I would be enormous!
There's a third choice which is conscious/thoughtful eating. It's what I've done for the majority of my adult life.
I'm calorie aware and think about how much I actually need as opposed to how much I want to eat but don't log my food. Casual monitoring of my weight trend has an impact on my "how much I need" decisions. I've got a variety of tools to reduce calories to correct a persistent upward trend before it gets out of hand.
For me calorie counting was a temporary but useful interlude to get from the level where I maintained my weight but overweight for 20 years to maintaining weight in the right range.
It's still there as a tool/skill if I want the precision to be a certain weight at a certain date and the educational benefits remain long after you stop logging.
But if I had to calorie count to maintain my weight it would be a small price to pay in terms of investment of time.
This is largely how I am too.
I sometimes enjoy calorie counting for the short term and sometimes use it to motivate myself if I am becoming less mindful, and I found it very educational, but I can maintain fine without counting. What I cannot do is eat to hunger (I'm not really hungry or not -- my desire to eat is mostly based on habit or mental things, like whether something looks tasty, period). I don't even think this is a flaw in my makeup or psychology, it would have worked fine in most eras and cultures when food was eaten according to custom and wasn't hugely available. During a service trip to Nicaragua, for example, I'd happily eat the breakfast provided, work til lunch, eat lunch, so on, and lost quite a bit of weight never feeling one bit hungry (on high carb macros, even) because for me if food is not around or expected I don't think about it.
But when food is on offer all the time and so easy and portions are easy to distort I have to add some thought, be mindful, and for me it's helpful to eat to a schedule and pay attention to the portions I've learned work for me.
That's not "inituitive eating" or "listening to my body" (my body lies), but also easier for me than always calorie counting. (But like you calorie counting wouldn't be that hard if it was the only option.)4 -
The people I know of who eat intuitively, don't really eat that I've ever seen. I have a couple of acquaintances that do and they are both vegetarian, don't exercise and just eat so little. We went out one time and they both orders small salads for dinner and that was it. Maybe they ate before? Who knows, but every time I've seen them on get togethers, I've never seen them snack or eat even if there is decent food available.
For me, I count because I like to be somewhat accurate. And also being able to teach it to my clients matter too.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I'm one of those type of eaters too, Morgaen73. I'll eat until I'm sick if you give me the chance and love every minute of it. Trying to eat intuitively for me is no diet for me, it's what got me here in the first place.
Since I have hyperinsulinism and high cholesterol issues, I HAVE to count the calories, eliminate problem foods, and portion all my meals. Failure to do so, or to eat foods high in sugar or carbs guarantees I'll gain instead of losing.
Since starting with MFP in May, I've only lost 13 lbs despite keeping a strict 1500 calorie a day limit, drinking my fill in water, and walking nearly 10,000 steps 5-6 days a week. It's not a huge loss considering what my goal is, but it's the first weight I've actually lost in 20 years of trying. It's a constant uphill battle that will never end.9 -
I've heard this said in the forums a few times, along with "just eat intuitively" and "eat LCHF" When I asked how much I need to eat with LCHF I was tols "eat untill you are full. It's very calorie dense so you get full more quickly"
Here is the problem with eating intuitively ... for some people it is not intuitive.
I am never full. Yes, I'm constantly hungry. I am either hungry or I eat until I'm nauseous. If I had to eat a piece of cheese to full me up, I would eat the whole block.
I did an experiment this weekend. I didn't log. I decided that I've been on MFP for long enough to judge how much I should eat without measuring.
So, Friday (I measured until after lunch) ... eating little bits at a time and using the "am I still hungry test" I was still hungry after I ate my "modest" portions. Lunch was 1000 kcal btw and I was still hungry.
Saturday ... had a modest breakfast of scrambled eggs and toast after my workout. Small bites during the day and we went to a bbq the evening where I had 1 beer and also ate moderately.
Sunday, the same thing. Ate moderately (according to me). Keeping to the "am I still hungry" test.
So, very optimistically I climb on the scale this morning ... 3kg heavier than Friday morning.
Now I know the following contributed
1. I haven had a poop since Thursday
2. Water weight ... but I have had my full water requirement every day so there is no reason why my body would hold back water
So yeah ... clearly some people need to count calories for the rest of their lives.
Volume. Nothing fills me up more than volume. And because I LOVE green veggies, this is very easy for me. Its the only way I can stay full and not go looking for food after I have that protein bar which some people claim keeps them full for most of the day.
I dont like vegeterribles to begin with so after 4 years of having salad for lunch I said enough is enough lol Yeah those bars, bananas and pretty much anything else that should "keep me full for hours" really just doesn't.0 -
I'm not sure your very short test and single weigh in proves anything about the rest or your life. But when someone on these forums says you don't have to log there is no reason you need to heed the advice. Do whatever you prefer.8
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dutchandkiwi wrote: »I will count even if I learn - In the past I have been very capable to unlearn my portion sizes again. Not logging leads to weightgain for me
I unlearn this too. I also get really lazy.2 -
I'm on the other end of the spectrum than the rest of you, but I have to agree to do what works for you....(: Having said that, since I've been on Keto the past six months, it's the first time in my life I'm not starving all the time. In fact, I've tried twice to go back to a "regular" diet plan, and the first thing I notice when I start eating carbs, and in particular sugar, is that I'm hungry all the time. Just like I used to be, ten minutes after a meal I'm back in the fridge. So definitely do what works best for your situation6
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I'm calorie counting now for roughly 5 months and restrict myself quite a lot. But the truth is, I never get used to the smaller portions. I've often heard "you get used to it" or "your stomach will shrink, so you don't need so much to feel full" That's unfortunately never happening for me.
Every few weeks I go to a breakfast buffet with a friend and try to be good, but in the end, I eat until I reach a food coma. My stomach can still hold a lot of food and if I don't restrict myself via MFP, I'm fat again in no time.
It's fine to skip a few days here and there and I absolutely enjoy those breakfast dates without a hint of guilt, but in general, I need to count every day and that will continue in my maintenance and forever. Probably a bit more loosely, but yeah, not counting will make me overeat all the time.4 -
My intuition is how the waist fits on my jeans. If it starts getting tight, it's time to eat less.2
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Yeah, except some fabrics stretch as you do. I have a number of skirts that are effectively two sizes larger than the label states. (A couple are elastic, but in most cases, it's just the fabric.)8
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Me too! I've never encountered anyone who understood what I meant about that geometry thing! Lucky for me, I don't like rice Lol. I can however pretty accurately "feel" weight - so my guesses at how many grams are usually dead on.estherdragonbat wrote: »I'm pretty sure I will. For the simple reason that I have some spatial perception issues. Like, you know in geometry when they show you an unfolded box and ask you to determine which shape represents what it would look like if folded? I can't do it. I also can't eyeball a scoop of rice and tell you if it's one cup or two.
As for OP- eating intuitively - I would manage for some foods ( I know what a serving of potatoes feels like for instance), but would fail utterly overall ( I would eat twice as much meat, many times too many nuts, and if I let a bag of potato chips open, I'd eat the whole family size bag and could have more) - if intuition were my only guide.
OP: we are all unique. Do what works for you, you are in the best position to know what works and doesn't for you. And that is just fine. Nothing wrong with you, you are just your own distinctive self.
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The more I learn and experience the issues around weight management, the more absurd the idea of intuitive eating becomes.
Intuition is fleeting and highly dubious. Comparing weight management to financial management there are some who have a routine that is more prone to success, but they may not be aware of how their actions are contributing to this success.
There is nothing intuitive to gauging calorie burns from activity and nothing intuitive to gauging the calories a sandwich contains. I know I have $20 to spend on dinner and know what a sandwich costs because it is clearly marked. Prior to using MFP or similar service monitoring diet took significant time. Now tracking takes a matter of minutes and I look at this no differently than keeping a checkbook balanced.
I'm sure someone will disagree and use their n=1 story as evidence. I could even use my own. I was never overweight and always active...up to the point I wasn't.13 -
Don't we all know how to intuitively eat? It's just some of us (me included) choose to ignore that little voice in our heads and that overstuffed feeling in our guts. I intuitively know full well i don't need that whole bag of chips, dessert after dinner every night or that extra scoop of pasta/rice/mashed potato, but i choose to ignore the sensible side of my brain and follow the "I need something tasty even though I'm not hungry" or the "That tastes so good, I'm not going to stop at a normal/sensible portion" side..9
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I don't log or physically count calories...but I do weigh and measure most things and where I can't, I just do the best I can as I do have a general idea of what an appropriate serving of something is for me for most things.
Because I don't log, I have other "rules" in place and routines that help me keep things under control...so I wouldn't exactly call it "intuitive"...but yeah, for me, logging and counting calories ended up being really bad for me mentally so I stopped and started doing something that worked better for me and caused less mental anguish and obsessive behavior.6 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »I'm pretty sure I will. For the simple reason that I have some spatial perception issues. Like, you know in geometry when they show you an unfolded box and ask you to determine which shape represents what it would look like if folded? I can't do it. I also can't eyeball a scoop of rice and tell you if it's one cup or two.
Also, I have no doubt that when exposed to foods that I... moderate reluctantly (as in, yes, I can stop at 4 oz of potatoes, but oh if I had the calories, I'd love to have more), without the scale to keep me accountable, my modest portions are going to creep up.
OMG this is so me! Yes, I too will calorie count for the foreseeable future. I have no intuition when it comes to food, portion-wise or appetite-wise.2 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Don't we all know how to intuitively eat? It's just some of us (me included) choose to ignore that little voice in our heads and that overstuffed feeling in our guts. I intuitively know full well i don't need that whole bag of chips, dessert after dinner every night or that extra scoop of pasta/rice/mashed potato, but i choose to ignore the sensible side of my brain and follow the "I need something tasty even though I'm not hungry" or the "That tastes so good, I'm not going to stop at a normal/sensible portion" side..
@Christine_72, I respect your opinion here, but I don't know if I agree with you. I know what portions I eat now, and I know what portions I ate back when I was "Fat Jruzer." Certainly I know I shouldn't have been eating the "road burgers" and heaping bowls of ice cream that I ate back then, but I'm not sure if I could pick out a sensible amount of food to get to steady state.
Maybe it's my personality, but I just don't trust myself here. I'm a very quantitative person - intuition doesn't really work that well for me. Plus, as Mrs Jruzer says, I'm an "eater". To my mind, calorie counting is liberating. I concede that for others it might feel like a burden, and if they can somehow make their intuition work, more power to them.9 -
Christine_72 wrote: »Don't we all know how to intuitively eat? It's just some of us (me included) choose to ignore that little voice in our heads and that overstuffed feeling in our guts. I intuitively know full well i don't need that whole bag of chips, dessert after dinner every night or that extra scoop of pasta/rice/mashed potato, but i choose to ignore the sensible side of my brain and follow the "I need something tasty even though I'm not hungry" or the "That tastes so good, I'm not going to stop at a normal/sensible portion" side..
@Christine_72, I respect your opinion here, but I don't know if I agree with you. I know what portions I eat now, and I know what portions I ate back when I was "Fat Jruzer." Certainly I know I shouldn't have been eating the "road burgers" and heaping bowls of ice cream that I ate back then, but I'm not sure if I could pick out a sensible amount of food to get to steady state.
Maybe it's my personality, but I just don't trust myself here. I'm a very quantitative person - intuition doesn't really work that well for me. Plus, as Mrs Jruzer says, I'm an "eater". To my mind, calorie counting is liberating. I concede that for others it might feel like a burden, and if they can somehow make their intuition work, more power to them.
Oh don't get me wrong. I log/count and weigh everything, it keeps me honest. But i know the feeling of being full and eating for the sake of it, and a lot of the time i ignore that full signal in favour of eating more.
I'm full every night after dinner, but that doesn't stop me from having a stonking great bowl of dessert straight after. But because i prelog i don't have to stress that i don't have enough calories for it. If i listened to my stomach i would forgo the dessert, because i honestly do NOT need it, but again, i choose to ignore it and have it anyway!3 -
I think it's a mistake to give up on learning how to eat to maintain your weight without calorie counting or copious amounts of exercise for that matter. Things change, life always gets in the way in my experience and it's an invaluable tool to have. Even if your preference is calorie counting the more flexibility you have, the better your chances of long term success.12
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Speaking as a person who gets "copious amounts of exercise", I'd like to mention that I get said exercise to manage a medical condition, not my weight. The fact that my TDEE is higher due to said exercise is just a bonus.
Being active is an end unto itself for me, I think this is true for a lot of people who get into fitness. It becomes its own reward and it's really not about weight management. To imply that it has anything at all to do with being a primary focus for its pursuit really misses what most people into fitness are about.
As for logging/tracking? I can draw something accurately, but can't for the life of me measure portions. I will log for the time being.
If life happens, I'll adjust. I always do. That's one thing I've learned. I'm adaptable.6
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