Protein is a pain in the *kitten*
marcusarand
Posts: 6 Member
Am I the only one who has to go out of the way to get enough protein everyday? If it weren't for protein supplements I wouldn't even be getting close. I don't want to eat 2 pounds of chicken everyday. I also would prefer not to have to drink more than one shake or Quest bar a day as that *kitten* gets expensive real quick.
Anyone have some helpful hints as to where I might find the stuff other than copious amounts of animal products or expensive supplements?
Anyone have some helpful hints as to where I might find the stuff other than copious amounts of animal products or expensive supplements?
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Replies
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How much protein are you trying to eat daily? If it's really that difficult for you to hit your goal maybe it's too high. The general suggestion is .8 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. If you want to eat more than that knock yourself out, but eating a bit lower than that is still not detrimental.5
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What's "enough" protein? There's a difference between struggling to get 20% of your calories from protein (or the RDA for men of 56 grams) and struggling to get 45% of your calories from protein.
If you are struggling to reach a very high goal, you might want to consider lowering the goal.3 -
Upon the advice of my personal trainer I'm at 30% protein on a 2500 calorie diet. Comes out to 188g according to this handy app.
You can read 10 different articles and get 10 completely different recommendations as to how much protein to consume. I'm not dying when I don't hit the goal that's been set for me. It's mostly just the fact that someone programmed this app to tell me how much protein to eat and if I'm going to do it then I should do it "right". That's maybe not the right way to be looking at it. I dunno.
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As others have pointed out, I am curious as to how much do you think you need? Unless you happen to be body builder, I am guessing your needs might not be nearly as inflated as you think.0
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30% on that amount of calories is not much of a stretch. A pound of chicken (2 servings of 8 ounces each) is 100 grams. Add in some yogurt, eggs, jerky, and maybe a protein shake and you're golden. I hit 165 grams on Sundays with 1700 calories. I also have higher fat on Sunday, so hamburgers or steaks fits well.1
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If you're interested in non-animal sources of protein, check out beans, seitan, tofu, and tempeh.2
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marcusarand wrote: »Upon the advice of my personal trainer I'm at 30% protein on a 2500 calorie diet. Comes out to 188g according to this handy app.
You can read 10 different articles and get 10 completely different recommendations as to how much protein to consume. I'm not dying when I don't hit the goal that's been set for me. It's mostly just the fact that someone programmed this app to tell me how much protein to eat and if I'm going to do it then I should do it "right". That's maybe not the right way to be looking at it. I dunno.
Protein requirements are based on a range of lean body mass. The amount you needs depends on a variety of factors (such as leanness, activity level, etc..), but unless you are jacked, you probably don't need 180g. The range is 1.5-2.2g/kg of body weight.4 -
Maybe rethink your goal?
I go with the default 20% protein, 30% fat, and 50% carbs that MFP gave me for goals.
I have not had to resort to protein bars or shakes to supplement to get to that goal.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10247171/carbs-and-fats-are-cheap-heres-a-guide-to-getting-your-proteins-worth-fiber-also/p1
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How much protein are you trying to eat daily? If it's really that difficult for you to hit your goal maybe it's too high. The general suggestion is .8 to 1.0 grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. If you want to eat more than that knock yourself out, but eating a bit lower than that is still not detrimental.
People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Protein
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/health-wellness/articles/2015/02/13/older-adults-double-your-protein-intake-for-better-health?context=amp
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170523095019.htm
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/expert-blog/seniors-beef-it-up-to-prevent-muscle-loss/bgp-20136508
http://www.todaysdietitian.com/newarchives/040715p16.shtml
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/daily-protein-needs-seniors-still-unsettled-201406117208
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marcusarand wrote: »Upon the advice of my personal trainer I'm at 30% protein on a 2500 calorie diet. Comes out to 188g according to this handy app.
You can read 10 different articles and get 10 completely different recommendations as to how much protein to consume. I'm not dying when I don't hit the goal that's been set for me. It's mostly just the fact that someone programmed this app to tell me how much protein to eat and if I'm going to do it then I should do it "right". That's maybe not the right way to be looking at it. I dunno.
Protein requirements are based on a range of lean body mass. The amount you needs depends on a variety of factors (such as leanness, activity level, etc..), but unless you are jacked, you probably don't need 180g. The range is 1.5-2.2g/kg of body weight.
This. For me that comes to around 100 g (really a bit less, but I love round numbers) and that amount is easy for me to get and does not require supplements, which I rarely use. Nothing wrong with them, just personal preference.
If you are bored with chicken and shakes remember there are a ton of other sources of lean meat (seafood is great, lean pork and beef and venison), low fat dairy works well, and the vegetarian sources mentioned above. Vegetables will also contribute some (and nuts, but they are more fat, so high cal for the protein).3 -
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Here's the WHO report on protein needs if you want to see the science behind "the RDA is adequate protein for 98% of everybody" comments. Pages 114-115 discuss the protein needs of the elderly.
This PubMed article recommends at least 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight for older adults. "Body weight" means ideal weight when discussing protein since excess body fat does not need to be supplied with protein.
This American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article discusses a study where they find that protein needs for healthy older adults isn't statistically different from the RDA.
ETA: There's a difference between adequate and optimal protein intake. The RDA for adequate is 0.8 g/kg for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding adults. The most common recommendation for optimal protein intake in the MFP forums that I see posted is generally around 0.8 g/pound of lean body mass (note the different unit) or about 1 g/pound of goal weight.0 -
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Here's the WHO report on protein needs if you want to see the science behind "the RDA is adequate protein for 98% of everybody" comments. Pages 114-115 discuss the protein needs of the elderly.
This PubMed article recommends at least 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight for older adults. "Body weight" means ideal weight when discussing protein since excess body fat does not need to be supplied with protein.
This American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article discusses a study where they find that protein needs for healthy older adults isn't statistically different from the RDA.
ETA: There's a difference between adequate and optimal protein intake. The RDA for adequate is 0.8 g/kg for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding adults. The most common recommendation for optimal protein intake in the MFP forums that I see posted is generally around 0.8 g/pound of lean body mass (note the different unit) or about 1 g/pound of goal weight.
Thanks for those links, since I can not know my lean mass, and 1g / pound goal weight is close to the 2x RDA amount ( 61 g for a 170 lb woman)) - therefore I am hopeful I’m getting a good amount, but sad to see it is still ridiculously high percentage. Yes, my calorie allowance for weight loss is 1200. Currently on maintenance at 1450 so protein is slightly less onerous at the moment - but will be going back to 1200 soon ( on a break.)0 -
The RDA is adequate and "optimal" isn't that optimal for you if it doesn't work comfortably with your way of eating. Why not experiment and find an amount between those two extremes? I like to aim for ~70-80 grams of protein per day no matter where my calorie intake is set.
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Here's the WHO report on protein needs if you want to see the science behind "the RDA is adequate protein for 98% of everybody" comments. Pages 114-115 discuss the protein needs of the elderly.
This PubMed article recommends at least 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight for older adults. "Body weight" means ideal weight when discussing protein since excess body fat does not need to be supplied with protein.
This American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article discusses a study where they find that protein needs for healthy older adults isn't statistically different from the RDA.
ETA: There's a difference between adequate and optimal protein intake. The RDA for adequate is 0.8 g/kg for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding adults. The most common recommendation for optimal protein intake in the MFP forums that I see posted is generally around 0.8 g/pound of lean body mass (note the different unit) or about 1 g/pound of goal weight.
Thanks for those links, since I can not know my lean mass, and 1g / pound goal weight is close to the 2x RDA amount therefore I am hopeful I’m getting a good amount, but sad to see it is still ridiculously high percentage. Yes, my calorie allowance for weight loss is 1200. Currently on maintenance at 1450 so protein is slightly less onerous at the moment - but will be going back to 1200 soon ( on a break.)
MFP used to have a default of 15% of calories from protein and bumped it up to 20% because some studies were showing that a bit more protein might be helpful when losing weight. 20% of 1200 calories is 60 grams of protein per day, which is 1.3 times the RDA.1 -
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Also confused where you got 92 g. So you’re doubling 41g as an RDA amount. But the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein is 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. I guess a 115ish pound woman? Lol not me then. Ah well, got my hopes up that I could lower my protein intake.0 -
Excess body fat doesn't need to be provided with protein so, even though they say body weight, they mean ideal body weight. That's why people say to look at your lean body mass when deciding how much protein you need. 46 grams is the RDA amount for adult non-pregnant, non-lactating, "ideal" height women. Taller and shorter women can use the middle normal BMI-weight for their height and the 0.8 g/kg multiplier to tweak that number but it's still in the 46-gram neighborhood. The RDA Dietary Reference Intakes: Macronutrients says that "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake."
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Also confused where you got 92 g. The Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA) for protein is a modest 0.8 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. I guess a 115ish pound woman? Lol not me then. Ah well, got my hopes up that I could lower my protein intake.1 -
Read this. Eat more of the things on its list that you like, and less of something else that isn't helping you meet your goals:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10247171/carbs-and-fats-are-cheap-heres-a-guide-to-getting-your-proteins-worth-fiber-also1 -
2x the RDA for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding women would be 92 grams. 40% of 1200 would be 120 grams. What's your calorie allowance?People losing weight (at risk of losing muscle) and adults over the age of 50 would seem to benefit from a much higher protein intake than the RDA. I keep seeing advice on MFP that high protein recommendations (anything where a person’s goals are higher than RDA) are just bro-science but never any back up to that claim. (Would really like to find out sources that back up the low RDA amount b/c I personally am not happy having to reach my protein goals, would be happier eating the low RDA amount).
My research ( weight loss and adult over 50) comes up with at least 2x RDA for older adults. Unfortunately that is about 40% of my weight loss calorie allowance.
Here's the WHO report on protein needs if you want to see the science behind "the RDA is adequate protein for 98% of everybody" comments. Pages 114-115 discuss the protein needs of the elderly.
This PubMed article recommends at least 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight for older adults. "Body weight" means ideal weight when discussing protein since excess body fat does not need to be supplied with protein.
This American Journal of Clinical Nutrition article discusses a study where they find that protein needs for healthy older adults isn't statistically different from the RDA.
ETA: There's a difference between adequate and optimal protein intake. The RDA for adequate is 0.8 g/kg for non-pregnant, non-breastfeeding adults. The most common recommendation for optimal protein intake in the MFP forums that I see posted is generally around 0.8 g/pound of lean body mass (note the different unit) or about 1 g/pound of goal weight.
Thanks for those links, since I can not know my lean mass, and 1g / pound goal weight is close to the 2x RDA amount ( 61 g for a 170 lb woman)) - therefore I am hopeful I’m getting a good amount, but sad to see it is still ridiculously high percentage. Yes, my calorie allowance for weight loss is 1200. Currently on maintenance at 1450 so protein is slightly less onerous at the moment - but will be going back to 1200 soon ( on a break.)
What I see normally is .6-.8 (or .65-.85) g/lb of a healthy goal weight or .8-1 g/lb of lean mass.
My weight (healthy and not far from my eventual goal of 118-120 or so) is 125, so for me that comes to 81-106 g (based on .65-.85 g/lb). Since I am concerned about muscle loss when at a deficit, I err on the high side (100), which happens to be pretty easy for me and helps with satiety anyway. I would be okay with a bit lower if it were hard for me.
I do have a good LBM estimate from a DEXA, which is 95, so that falls within the range from the other estimate.
At 1200 calories (which I don't do these days), 100 g would be about 33% -- I think I'd probably go with 30% (90 g) and just try to hit or exceed it.
I think 1 lb/g (even of goal weight) is generally well more than anyone needs unless it makes a big difference to satiety.
Here's a pretty reliable site with some studies: https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/1 -
Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.0 -
Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.2 -
I am losing weight so I have MFP set to 30% protein. I hit 150-175g of protein a day with (normally) only having one protein drink. (protein keeps me somewhat fuller than carbs right now, so it keeps me in my goal.)
I had 155g of protein the other day with 1 protein shake, 1.5 cups of egg whites and 2 whole eggs, a skyr yogurt, a cheese string, and ground chicken, the rest came from grains or veg.
Today I had 180g of protein from 2 protein scoops, 1 cup egg whites and 2 whole eggs, a skyr yogurt, a cheese string, and ground chicken, the rest in beans and veg/grains.
Greek or Icelandic yogurt, eggs, egg whites, grains, beans, tofu, cheese, all can pack a decent bit of protein aside from meat.0 -
Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.0 -
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.1 -
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
If they mean lean body weight or ideal weight, why would they just not say so? Why make it so difficult anyway - why not just say what they mean! .36g per pound (body weight or ideal weight). GRRRRRR ARGH. (Apologies for the rant. But if they wanted to make a protein recommendation more difficult to follow they couldn’t have done any better confusing the general population ).0 -
I have been unable to find anything that specifically states that it's lean body weight. However, the Macronutrients chart shows Life Stage Groups and the footnote says "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake. RDAs are set to meet the needs of almost all (97 to 98 percent) individuals in a group." Far more than 2% of the population is overweight/obese.
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
Please look at my links - especially the Harvard one. It specifically references the .8g protein to kilograms of body weight and then recommends doubling it. Nowhere did I see it say ‘body weight means lean body weight’ or did I misread?0 -
I have been unable to find anything that specifically states that it's lean body weight. However, the Macronutrients chart shows Life Stage Groups and "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake. RDAs are set to meet the needs of almost all (97 to 98 percent) individuals in a group." Far more than 2% of the population is overweight/obese.
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
Please look at my links - especially the Harvard one. It specifically references the .8g protein to kilograms of body weight and then recommends doubling it. Nowhere did I see it say ‘body weight means lean body weight’ or did I misread?
Hey, thanks for this discussion, btw.
What, by the way, is an AI? And why two RDA recommendations for protein ( 46 g or .8 g ...). Why do you think the 46g for females is the better RDA than .8 G protein per body weight kg?0 -
Adequate Intake.
I have been unable to find anything that specifically states that it's lean body weight. However, the Macronutrients chart shows Life Stage Groups and "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake. RDAs are set to meet the needs of almost all (97 to 98 percent) individuals in a group." Far more than 2% of the population is overweight/obese.
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
Please look at my links - especially the Harvard one. It specifically references the .8g protein to kilograms of body weight and then recommends doubling it. Nowhere did I see it say ‘body weight means lean body weight’ or did I misread?
What, by the way, is an AI? And why two RDA recommendations for protein ( 46 g or .8 g ...). Why do you think the 46g for females is the better RDA than .8 G protein per body weight kg?
The RDA was developed in the 1940's when there was much more of a problem with undernourishment than obesity. 0.8 g/kg was likely an increase over what they were eating.
I think that 46 grams is a little low but it's a decent "at least this much" goal because it's been studied worldwide and been shown to be a safe intake amount for 98% of the population. I like a buffer so I aim for 70-80 grams, especially when in weight loss mode. Some may like more of a buffer but too much protein just gets converted to glucose so it's a waste.0 -
Adequate Intake.
I have been unable to find anything that specifically states that it's lean body weight. However, the Macronutrients chart shows Life Stage Groups and "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake. RDAs are set to meet the needs of almost all (97 to 98 percent) individuals in a group." Far more than 2% of the population is overweight/obese.
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
Please look at my links - especially the Harvard one. It specifically references the .8g protein to kilograms of body weight and then recommends doubling it. Nowhere did I see it say ‘body weight means lean body weight’ or did I misread?
What, by the way, is an AI? And why two RDA recommendations for protein ( 46 g or .8 g ...). Why do you think the 46g for females is the better RDA than .8 G protein per body weight kg?
The RDA was developed in the 1940's when there was much more of a problem with undernourishment than obesity. 0.8 g/kg was likely an increase over what they were eating.
I think that 46 grams is a little low but it's a decent "at least this much" goal because it's been studied worldwide and been shown to be a safe intake amount for 98% of the population. I like a buffer so I aim for 70-80 grams, especially when in weight loss mode. Some may like more of a buffer but too much protein just gets converted to glucose so it's a waste.
Hey, thanks again for your thoughts and input. I appreciate it.0 -
You're welcome. Good luck with whatever goal you decide to use.
Adequate Intake.
I have been unable to find anything that specifically states that it's lean body weight. However, the Macronutrients chart shows Life Stage Groups and "RDAs and AIs may both be used as goals for individual intake. RDAs are set to meet the needs of almost all (97 to 98 percent) individuals in a group." Far more than 2% of the population is overweight/obese.
I agree that you shouldn't just trust random people in the MFP forums. Do the research yourself. Read through the links given, especially that WHO report.Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
My suggestion: If you want to calculate off of your current body weight, do that but don't then double that number. If you want to double the RDA, use the RDI/AI number that's shown in the chart for women in your age group (46 g) rather than the "how we got that number" formula in the footnote. Doing it both ways has you nearly 3 times the RDA.
It is going to take a while to try to get through the Who report, but I’ll try tomorrow. As for the pub ned article, it says body weight - it is you that say they mean lean body weight. The third article you mention does take issue with the older adults need more protein contention that I had sources for, but the four sources I had were more recent, so I’ll probably assume they had access to the report you mentioned but still made the double RDA recommendation.
Please look at my links - especially the Harvard one. It specifically references the .8g protein to kilograms of body weight and then recommends doubling it. Nowhere did I see it say ‘body weight means lean body weight’ or did I misread?
What, by the way, is an AI? And why two RDA recommendations for protein ( 46 g or .8 g ...). Why do you think the 46g for females is the better RDA than .8 G protein per body weight kg?
The RDA was developed in the 1940's when there was much more of a problem with undernourishment than obesity. 0.8 g/kg was likely an increase over what they were eating.
I think that 46 grams is a little low but it's a decent "at least this much" goal because it's been studied worldwide and been shown to be a safe intake amount for 98% of the population. I like a buffer so I aim for 70-80 grams, especially when in weight loss mode. Some may like more of a buffer but too much protein just gets converted to glucose so it's a waste.
Hey, thanks again for your thoughts and input. I appreciate it.0 -
Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
I agree with everything AnnPT77 has said here, for the record.
I'd be curious where Harvard Med or Mayo Clinic is recommending such a high protein intake. I am more familiar with the various Harvard nutrition sites, as they are among my favorite, and they definitely don't.
From the Examine site I linked:If you are an athlete or highly active person, or you are attempting to lose body fat while preserving lean mass, then a daily intake of 1.0-1.5g/kg bodyweight (0.45-0.68g/lb bodyweight) would be a good target.
andIf you are obese, using a protein intake relative to body weight is a bad idea. Either calculate your lean mass (overall weight after subtracting fat mass, which can be calculated by body fat percentage) or use your goal/target weight for calculations.
I understand you are overweight, not obese, but I think the same principle applies -- it is about lean mass and your lean mass is not significantly different just because one is overweight or obese.
Back to the Examine site:During Weight Loss
High protein diets have been found to preserve lean body mass when dieting in both obese people[11] and athletes [12] and has also been shown to improve overall body composition[13]. A doubling of protein intake from 0.9g/kg (near the daily recommended intake for the general population) to 1.8g/kg is able to preserve lean muscle mass during short-term and relatively drastic drops in calories.[14]
There I will note they are talking short term and drastic, but also that if one uses a healthy goal weight, for me anyway, my number is right at the same range I mentioned before -- 98 g. It wouldn't make sense that if I were twice the weight I am now, or even 40 lbs heavier (which would be overweight not obese) that my protein needs would go way up. This also was a test of heightened protein vs. the RDA, roughly, it was not intended to suggest that number (1.8x) was the minimum needed, which is probably why the number that is recommended above is 1-1.5 g/kg, NOT 1.8.
Here's Harvard: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein/
Here's an article at the Mayo site: https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/are-you-getting-too-much-protein/
Here's IOM for active people: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16004827 (they would have higher needs)
Here's a pretty good article consistent with what I've read in general (note the recommendation to use lean mass or goal weight if you have excess body fat): https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-per-day#section4
Obviously you should do what you want -- I am taking you at your word that you'd rather not feel like you need to consume so much and the one drawback I see as serious to consuming protein in the amounts you are consuming is that without more variety in the diet you might burn out.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I still see the RDA is .8g protein per kilogram weight. It does suggest obese persons should prob use something other then Bodyweight. I’m not obese, merely overweight. I am over 50. The links I provided say I should probably be 2x RDA and I don’t see anywhere the RDA is based on lean weight or ideal weight.
I’ll read further in the https://examine.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day/ link, but quickly it looked to say exactly what I’m saying?
The difference is is the RDA calculated off of Bodyweight or off ideal weight. It seems to me everywhere I can find it says body weight - so 120+ G protein for me. When I’m at goal weight, yeah, my protein requirements will be less.
Protein is required to maintain our lean body mass. (That's why recommendations are often - and most precisely/accurately - phrased in terms of LBM. But many of us don't know our LBM. Therefore, the recommendations in terms of body weight are essentially the same recommendations, adjusted via a bit of arithmetic mumbo-jumbo to include an assumption about average body fat percentage.)
But our fat mass doesn't require extra protein to maintain it - just calories. Therefore, we use "healthy goal weight" with the grams-per-bodyweight figures as the basis for calculating protein needs when we're still overweight. Overweight people don't need more protein. People losing weight arguably do, but that's (IMO) already built into the 0.6-0.8g (per pound of healthy goal weight) you often see here.
Obviously, this is a huge subject of debate; this is my understanding/opinion.
Totally ignorant on the topic here, I admit. But why doesn’t my fat mass need protein? It’s a part of me. Everything being equal (diet, activity level, age, height etc) two people who only differ in weight fat mass (and have same lean mass) by say 25 pounds would have the same protein requirements? Isn’t just the fact that protein makes up the structural component of our cells mean that the 25 pound heavier person might need more? Or do fat cells literally have no use for the protein. At 25 pounds heavier I have a higher caloric need than my lighter weight counterpart, but only for fat and carb calories? That sounds odd to me.
I am about 25 to 35 pounds overweight. But I shouldn’t count that weight for purposes of my protein needs? I dunno. ( Didn’t I read somewhere that some of my overweightness is muscle I’ve developed to drag my extra fat around?) Don’t fat cells need any protein to function?
You say obviously this is a huge subject of debate, but I would like to say it wasn’t obvious to me. When I got serious about trying to get healthier and fit I did what research I was capable of, ranked sources like Harvard Medical and Mayo Clinic higher than ‘the old lady get’s fit blog’ and found reputable consensus .8g protein per 1 g body weight. And then probably double because I’m older, actively eating under maintenance calories to lose weight and an exercising quite a bit more than the average sedentary American is.
Don’t misunderstand me, I WANT to be wrong. But I can’t find anything reputable that supports this RDA should be calculated off of lean weight. (And I’m willing to admit I don’t understand allot of the mor rigorous scientific stuff - so maybe I’m just missing it). But I need more than the say so of MFP’ers before I’m going to believe it because it seems to contradict what I found in my research and what just makes some sense to me intuitively.
I agree with everything AnnPT77 has said here, for the record.
I'd be curious where Harvard Med or Mayo Clinic is recommending such a high protein intake. I am more familiar with the various Harvard nutrition sites, as they are among my favorite, and they definitely don't.
From the Examine site I linked:If you are an athlete or highly active person, or you are attempting to lose body fat while preserving lean mass, then a daily intake of 1.0-1.5g/kg bodyweight (0.45-0.68g/lb bodyweight) would be a good target.
andIf you are obese, using a protein intake relative to body weight is a bad idea. Either calculate your lean mass (overall weight after subtracting fat mass, which can be calculated by body fat percentage) or use your goal/target weight for calculations.
I understand you are overweight, not obese, but I think the same principle applies -- it is about lean mass and your lean mass is not significantly different just because one is overweight or obese.
Back to the Examine site:During Weight Loss
High protein diets have been found to preserve lean body mass when dieting in both obese people[11] and athletes [12] and has also been shown to improve overall body composition[13]. A doubling of protein intake from 0.9g/kg (near the daily recommended intake for the general population) to 1.8g/kg is able to preserve lean muscle mass during short-term and relatively drastic drops in calories.[14]
There I will note they are talking short term and drastic, but also that if one uses a healthy goal weight, for me anyway, my number is right at the same range I mentioned before -- 98 g. It wouldn't make sense that if I were twice the weight I am now, or even 40 lbs heavier (which would be overweight not obese) that my protein needs would go way up. This also was a test of heightened protein vs. the RDA, roughly, it was not intended to suggest that number (1.8x) was the minimum needed, which is probably why the number that is recommended above is 1-1.5 g/kg, NOT 1.8.
Here's Harvard: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/protein/
Here's an article at the Mayo site: https://newsnetwork.mayoclinic.org/discussion/are-you-getting-too-much-protein/
Here's IOM for active people: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16004827 (they would have higher needs)
Here's a pretty good article consistent with what I've read in general (note the recommendation to use lean mass or goal weight if you have excess body fat): https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-much-protein-per-day#section4
Obviously you should do what you want -- I am taking you at your word that you'd rather not feel like you need to consume so much and the one drawback I see as serious to consuming protein in the amounts you are consuming is that without more variety in the diet you might burn out.
Thanks a lot of reading there. Thanks!
I weigh 170. Healthy BMI is approx 110 to 140 pounds. (I’m a tad shorter than 5”4). I swim 3 to 5 miles a week and take aquatic aerobics classes 3 to 5 hours a week. If not swimming I’m doing 40 minutes of something ( walking, biking etc) that day. However my life is pretty sedentary otherwise and I rarely get more than 7000 steps on non walking specific days. I’m 52 and decidedly notice I’m much less strong than only a few years ago. I have lost 20 pounds since the spring and will keep going til I’m at a normal BMI and happy. I have been aiming for around 125 G protein a day.
You are not wrong about burn out. Especially since I’m allergic to eggs and do not like fish! It has been a slog.
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