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Vegan Debate - Are we truly Herbivores or Omnivores.
Lavelle1980
Posts: 367 Member
in Debate Club
After a full year of plant based diet, I started studying for myself if we are truly herbivores. How would we survive in the wild without b12 supplements? Does the shape and size of our teeth really matter or our digestive system?
I recently discovered that wolfs, dogs, etc.. eats grass as well about 5-10% of the time on their own. And also the Maned Wolf is an omnivorous animal that eats 50% plant based foods as wells as meat.
So as humans Are we omnivores that can thrive on plant based with the help of supplements or are we just herbivores and it's our natural diet? Your thoughts.
I recently discovered that wolfs, dogs, etc.. eats grass as well about 5-10% of the time on their own. And also the Maned Wolf is an omnivorous animal that eats 50% plant based foods as wells as meat.
So as humans Are we omnivores that can thrive on plant based with the help of supplements or are we just herbivores and it's our natural diet? Your thoughts.
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Replies
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We're omnivores -- we obviously have the ability to meet our nutritional needs on a wide variety of dietary patterns, those that include meat and those that don't have meat.20
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OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...11
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Are you a ruminant animal? Unless you are a mutant and lack the digestive system of homo sapiens, then no - you are an omnivore.
Due to the advancement of civilization we have the opportunity to supplement diet and choose any variety of diet.
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OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
*Some* vegans claim that we are naturally herbivores. It's an idea that seems pretty clearly designed to promote veganism, not an idea that is based on evaluating the available evidence.20 -
If we were herbivores, we wouldn't need supplements to thrive on such a diet. I don't see herbivorous animals taking supplements to meet their nutritional needs.14
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Humans are not herbivores. Herbivores have the ability to manufacture b12 in their guts which we lack. There has never in all of history and prehistory been a human culture whose traditional diet was vegan.8
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Our teeth and our stomach tell the story. How many stomachs does a cow have compare to ours? Those extra stomachs are required to eke out sufficient nutrition from the grasses. We don't have them.
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Maybe we could get an archaeologist in on the discussion. Is @Nony_Mouse anywhere around?5
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Humans are an amazingly adaptable species....although we need a balanced diet to thrive, we can survive on almost any diet, at least long enough to pass on our genes. If you consider eskimoes eating mainly whale/seal/fish , the isolated Amazonian tribes still hunting and gathering, fruitarians, fussy kids who live on nothing but yogurt for months, the sailors who were at sea for months on end centuries ago.....it is truly incredible what the human body can put up with.
In answer to the original question, I suspect we adapted to eat what was available. In some regions that could well have been vegan (I'm thinking of vegetarian buddhists in countries like China where dairy isn't part of the diet). I suspect though that for most of the world, what was available included meat.5 -
B12 comes from bacteria. The reason we need to supplement is because we live in a modern world where we sanitize things, including our water.
Humans, like our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, are mostly herbivorous. Our bodies are set up for finding and digesting plants. Humans tend to thrive on a mostly plant based diet. That being said, humans can survive for a long time on a wide variety of foods.33 -
Glad to see reason here and not pseudoscience; not only is B12 an issue, but getting adequate amounts of all amino acids, vitamins, and minerals requires a wide range of foods, not all of which would be available in the same geographic region. We shouldn't overestimate the AMOUNT of meat our ancestors ate; we are not carnivores (as I understand it the dietary breakdown of ancestral hominids was mostly plants with some meat). But there are exactly zero human civilizations that are vegan, and those who come close eat meat/animal products every once in a while. Even other primates eat meat; at least in the form of insects. And the ability to control fire and cook meat was crucial to the development of the human brain (as, for that matter, was agriculture and the ability to grow grains/tubers/legumes/other plant stuffs). We can't exist on the extreme of keto, nor can we exist on the extreme of veganism, without supplements.
I'm a big proponent of a plant-based diet if you can hack it. I just think we shouldn't make the argument that it's how we were designed to get 100% of our nutrition.
P.S. super interesting about wolves!! I didn't know that!9 -
Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.10
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It is our very opportunism which has made us such a successful species.3
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Maybe we could get an archaeologist in on the discussion. Is @Nony_Mouse anywhere around?
Half asleep archaeologist says omnivore. It's not even a debate.33 -
Glad to see reason here and not pseudoscience; not only is B12 an issue, but getting adequate amounts of all amino acids, vitamins, and minerals requires a wide range of foods, not all of which would be available in the same geographic region. We shouldn't overestimate the AMOUNT of meat our ancestors ate; we are not carnivores (as I understand it the dietary breakdown of ancestral hominids was mostly plants with some meat). But there are exactly zero human civilizations that are vegan, and those who come close eat meat/animal products every once in a while. Even other primates eat meat; at least in the form of insects. And the ability to control fire and cook meat was crucial to the development of the human brain (as, for that matter, was agriculture and the ability to grow grains/tubers/legumes/other plant stuffs). We can't exist on the extreme of keto, nor can we exist on the extreme of veganism, without supplements.
I'm a big proponent of a plant-based diet if you can hack it. I just think we shouldn't make the argument that it's how we were designed to get 100% of our nutrition.
P.S. super interesting about wolves!! I didn't know that!
Not true - all of the nutrients that the human body needs can be accessed by eating a carnivorous diet without the inclusion of plants. We eat plants simply because they are plentiful and easier to obtain than meat in most cases (plants don't run away from you or try to kill you when you are hunting them).12 -
janejellyroll wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
*Some* vegans claim that we are naturally herbivores. It's an idea that seems pretty clearly designed to promote veganism, not an idea that is based on evaluating the available evidence.
I don't know anything and I know that doesn't make any sense...1 -
Nony_Mouse wrote: »Maybe we could get an archaeologist in on the discussion. Is @Nony_Mouse anywhere around?
Half asleep archaeologist says omnivore. It's not even a debate.
Right. It's pretty clear cut. We're obviously omnivores. All kinds of unrelated evidence all points to that fact.
But we're not living in the world our ancestors lived in. We can choose to eat beef or broccoli or both. We have things like refrigeration and medicine and grocery stores and heated indoor homes that our distant ancestors did not have access to. Whatever diet you choose, don't put too much thought into how people lived a million years because while it has some relevance to people in modern society, it only has so much.8 -
If we were herbivores, we wouldn't need supplements to thrive on such a diet. I don't see herbivorous animals taking supplements to meet their nutritional needs.
There's no supplements vegans need that come inherently from meat. b12 is from bacteria and needs to be supplemented because of better sanitation standards in modern times.13 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Nony_Mouse wrote: »Maybe we could get an archaeologist in on the discussion. Is @Nony_Mouse anywhere around?
Half asleep archaeologist says omnivore. It's not even a debate.
Right. It's pretty clear cut. We're obviously omnivores. All kinds of unrelated evidence all points to that fact.
But we're not living in the world our ancestors lived in. We can choose to eat beef or broccoli or both. We have things like refrigeration and medicine and grocery stores and heated indoor homes that our distant ancestors did not have access to. Whatever diet you choose, don't put too much thought into how people lived a million years because while it has some relevance to people in modern society, it only has so much.
Yeah, wasn't meaning that in any sort of 'we should live how our ancestors did' way. Merely, that biologically we are omnivores. Obviously in the 21st century you can be perfectly healthy eating a vegan diet. I'm a staunch vegetarian myself.3 -
@Nony_Mouse
I didn't think you were suggesting we should eat meat because cavemen did. I think it's kind if built into the question.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »@Nony_Mouse
I didn't think you were suggesting we should eat meat because cavemen did. I think it's kind if built into the question.
I didn't really think you were @NorthCascades, clarifying for the masses. Anyone who remembers the raging debates I used to have with the paleo dieters knows my thoughts on that! That whole 'man the hunter' thing was debunked yonks ago, anyway. And even if we could eat the way our Palaeolithic ancestors did (which was obviously remarkably varied depending on When and Where), doesn't mean we should.
Basically, being omnivores gives us the awesome ability to meet our nutritional requirements from a wide variety of sources. As my profile tag lines says, anything that you can ingest that doesn't kill you, whilst avoiding anything that might kill you if it gets the chance6 -
OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Some vegans believe this idea. I at one time fell into this ideal of thinking, when trying to find the right way of eating and what's the most natural form that we should go.
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Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.4 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
He also wasn't calling you stupid guy. I'm pretty sure he aimed that comment at himself because he was asking where the idea came from.
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Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
I believe he was referring to himself, not you. Saying he was stupid and asking you a stupid question...not that you were stupid and asking us a stupid question.5 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
Correct - I was referring to myself as the stupid guy who was asking a stupid question. Sorry if it seemed like that was directed at OP - not my intent at all.6 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
My bad, I read it wrong. Just sipped my coffee and now everything makes sense LOL. okay, edited my response.
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.2 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
My bad, I read it wrong. Just sipped my coffee and now everything makes sense LOL. okay, edited my response.
I believe most wars would have been avoided if the principal players had had their coffee before responding to what they thought were insults.16
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