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Vegan Debate - Are we truly Herbivores or Omnivores.
Replies
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Alatariel75 wrote: »Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.
We are omnivores, but I don't think this is a valid argument for proving it. The question would have to be could humans ever exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet. It's quite possible that at some point in time we could.2 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.
We are omnivores, but I don't think this is a valid argument for proving it. The question would have to be could humans ever exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet. It's quite possible that at some point in time we could.
I wonder if Giant Pandas could be used as an example. I don't know much about them, including how long they've been surviving on a herbivore diet despite an omnivore digestive system.0 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Funny thing...I read it as an insult myself before I had my coffee...then read it as intended afterward.
Coffee = harmony7 -
WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.
We are omnivores, but I don't think this is a valid argument for proving it. The question would have to be could humans ever exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet. It's quite possible that at some point in time we could.
I wonder if Giant Pandas could be used as an example. I don't know much about them, including how long they've been surviving on a herbivore diet despite an omnivore digestive system.
Pandas will eat meat, including eggs and small rodents.6 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »WorkerDrone83 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.
We are omnivores, but I don't think this is a valid argument for proving it. The question would have to be could humans ever exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet. It's quite possible that at some point in time we could.
I wonder if Giant Pandas could be used as an example. I don't know much about them, including how long they've been surviving on a herbivore diet despite an omnivore digestive system.
Pandas will eat meat, including eggs and small rodents.
Yeah, I just read that. That might be some proof in itself. haha. Still they waste an exorbitant amount of resources and energy eating bamboo instead of just eating meat in accordance with their carnivorous nature.1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Funny thing...I read it as an insult myself before I had my coffee...then read it as intended afterward.
Coffee = harmony
Me too, although there was no coffee involved on my end. 1 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
My bad, I read it wrong. Just sipped my coffee and now everything makes sense LOL. okay, edited my response.
I believe most wars would have been avoided if the principal players had had their coffee before responding to what they thought were insults.
HA HA HA. So true! I would of avoided child support if I just had a nice cup of coffee 17 years ago
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Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Funny thing...I read it as an insult myself before I had my coffee...then read it as intended afterward.
Coffee = harmony
Me too, although there was no coffee involved on my end.
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Lavelle1980 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
My bad, I read it wrong. Just sipped my coffee and now everything makes sense LOL. okay, edited my response.
I believe most wars would have been avoided if the principal players had had their coffee before responding to what they thought were insults.
HA HA HA. So true! I would of avoided child support if I just had a nice cup of coffee 17 years ago
The child support may have happened anyway. She may have been looking for a fight in any way she could, I don't know. Sucks for you though, but I'm sure your child is worth the inconvenience right now. And there's only so many more years you have to pay for them!3 -
I think we are human beings who are lucky enough to live in a world where we can choose what we put in our mouth and have the intellectual ability to know how make any diet we want to work. Human's also have the ability to feel compassion, which is lacking in most, if not all other animals.
All herbivores in the wild, will eat meat if given the chance and easy access, with a few exceptions.
I'm a vegetarian, but I realize that I am coming from a place of privilege to be able to eat like this and still meet my dietary needs. If there was ever a break down to the systems that allow me as a Canadian to access the food I need to be healthy as a vegetarian, i would resort back to eating meat. (I'm talking like war or famine or zombie apocolypse) I practice Buddhism, but even the Dali Lama eats meat because A)There was no vegetables in Tibet due to poor growing conditions and
He has a medical condition.
Now, if I lived somewhere like India where I could access beans and grains and vegetables all year round, I could easily continue on, no matter what. It's all relative.
Humans can survive under the conditions in any part of the world it seems. Our way of surviving and living depends on the place, or the ability to truck in food.4 -
I am going to take a stab at answering this based on historical information.
Early man, think way back to neanderthals, died out about 40,000 years ago. Homo-sapiens, as a species, has been around for almost 200,000 years. Archaeological evidence points to them being HUNTER/GATHERERS. Hunting and gathering was humanity's first and most successful adaptation.
i.e. - yup - early man were definitely omnivores
About 12,500 years ago homo-sapiens domesticated some plants which gave birth to the invention of agriculture. Hunter-gatherers who did not change were displaced or conquered by farming groups in most parts of the world. Hunting did not go away, but rather farming and was added to our diet.
i.e. - Yup - still a bunch of omnivores
I am going with we always have been and always will be, at least for the foreseeable future, omnivores
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Alatariel75 wrote: »Can a human exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet with no supplements? No? Well, there you go.
We are omnivores, but I don't think this is a valid argument for proving it. The question would have to be could humans ever exist at optimal health on a herbivore diet. It's quite possible that at some point in time we could.
I would argue that some people are doing it now, although I'm not quite sure how we'd answer whether an individual is at "optimal health" or not.3 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Not picking on you but early omnivore humans didn't drink coffee and that fact doesn't affect anybody's choices.1 -
The internet-where debating things that aren't debatable is an everyday occurrence.3
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NorthCascades wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Not picking on you but early omnivore humans didn't drink coffee and that fact doesn't affect anybody's choices.
Maybe not drinking but it was used in the early parts of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_bean
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bmitchelmfp wrote: »There's no supplements vegans need that come inherently from meat. b12 is from bacteria and needs to be supplemented because of better sanitation standards in modern times.
This does not seem to be true, from everything I've read, at least not because of bacteria. Bacteria we eat don't give us vitamin B12. However, some bacteria in the gut do produce vitamin B12. And perhaps antibiotics kill off a lot of the bacteria that were better at making this vitamin; that's not provable one way or the other, at this point. But from the research I've seen, the gut bacteria don't make ENOUGH vitamin B12 to keep people from developing a deficiency.
However, when it comes to veganism, sanitation and cleaning methods do seem to play a part about whether people get enough vitamin B12. Or rather, they play a part in determining whether people are actually vegan, or only 'kinda-sorta' vegan (if vegan is not eating bugs, too). I know of one group in India's past (cannot recall the name right off the top of my head) that historically followed veganism. It is a group that I've heard often touted by some vegans as proof that humans don't really need vitamin B12 supplements and that full veganism is fully possible for the human body, without supplements.
However, archaeological evidence showed that in the past, things like veggies, lentils, and grains contained much larger amounts of, well, bugs and bug parts, if not bits of small animals. Enough, in fact, to provide the vitamin B12 that are essential to humans.
We still have bugs and bug parts in our food now, we just have a lot less of it, so most vegans are actually eating at least some insects now, too. The gov't actually has rules about how many bugs are allowed in food during processing, like how many of a certain type of bug (like mites or maggots), or how many insect fragments, per gram of food. (yeah, for fun reading that will make you never want to eat processed food again, read this article. *shudders* https://www.menshealth.com/health/food-contaminants )1 -
Lavelle1980 wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »Carlos_421 wrote: »Lavelle1980 wrote: »OK, stupid guy asking stupid question... but where did the idea that we were herbivores come from? That seems ridiculous to me...
Well it's a debate. Just like there are a group of people that believe the earth is flat. I'll refrain from calling you names though. Thanks for the comment.
No one called you names. Saying an idea seems ridiculous isn't the same as saying you are ridiculous. And this, much like the question of whether the Earth is flat, isn't a debate. There are facts, and people who choose to ignore those facts.
I think there was a misunderstanding on who was being referred to in the "stupid guy asking a stupid question" part...seems @jjpptt2 was referring to himself while it came across that he meant the OP.
I guess that what happens when you don't have your morning coffee. LOL, updated my response.
Not picking on you but early omnivore humans didn't drink coffee and that fact doesn't affect anybody's choices.
Maybe not drinking but it was used in the early parts of history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_bean
Your link does history dating back to 1500 CE about we're talking about the diet of ancestral humans in this thread. There was a time before coffee, and then people started using coffee beans even though more ancient humans didn't. We aren't limited to mimic the diets of our forebears.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »There was a time before coffee, and then people started using coffee beans even though more ancient humans didn't.
Is this what they call the dark ages?
11 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »There was a time before coffee, and then people started using coffee beans even though more ancient humans didn't.
Is this what they call the dark ages?
;-)0 -
Only half jokingly my personal dietary choices tend way more towards carnivore in practice...
Seems to agree with me if my gym progress, cholesterol, blood pressure, and mood are valid measures.
Obviously YMMV depending on genetics and personal philosophy.0 -
I'm no expert, but I am kind of a dental geek. I went to college planning to be an orthodontist, and still find dental science very interesting despite ending up a social worker. Our teeth are a good indicator of our "true" dietary intent. We have the flat, grinding molars that allow for efficient masticating of plant matter, along with the sharper cuspids and incisors to support meat intake. Our teeth also have adapted to the tendency to cook our food (including meat) to make for easier consumption and account for the availability of nutrients with cooked foods.
I am a believer in evolution and feel this is a pretty good indicator that we are truly omnivores. That said, if someone chooses to follow a plant-based or vegan diet we definitely have the biological tools to do so and I see nothing inherently wrong with it. We have the ability to choose our path. I also see nothing wrong with following an omnivorous diet and do so myself.10 -
I guess my thoughts on the subject is does it really matter? People make food choices today based on various factors; taste, sociopolitical ideology, religion, availability, etc. but biological determinant never even remotely enters that equation.
And let's say, for the sake of argument, I woke up tomorrow morning and the scientific community were to declare unequivocally that human beings are herbivores. Other than the Vegans and similar sects celebrating some kind of moral victory or feeling vindicated, do you really think anyone would change their habits as a result? I know I wouldn't speaking for myself. I would weigh suicide as possibly a more preferable option than a conversion to Veganism,3 -
B12 comes from bacteria. The reason we need to supplement is because we live in a modern world where we sanitize things, including our water.
Humans, like our closest relatives in the animal kingdom, are mostly herbivorous. Our bodies are set up for finding and digesting plants. Humans tend to thrive on a mostly plant based diet. That being said, humans can survive for a long time on a wide variety of foods.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_1UiTaIKPw
Look at those mostly herbivores go, hunting those furry, moving plants!3 -
bmitchelmfp wrote: »There's no supplements vegans need that come inherently from meat. b12 is from bacteria and needs to be supplemented because of better sanitation standards in modern times.
This does not seem to be true, from everything I've read, at least not because of bacteria. Bacteria we eat don't give us vitamin B12. However, some bacteria in the gut do produce vitamin B12. And perhaps antibiotics kill off a lot of the bacteria that were better at making this vitamin; that's not provable one way or the other, at this point. But from the research I've seen, the gut bacteria don't make ENOUGH vitamin B12 to keep people from developing a deficiency.
However, when it comes to veganism, sanitation and cleaning methods do seem to play a part about whether people get enough vitamin B12. Or rather, they play a part in determining whether people are actually vegan, or only 'kinda-sorta' vegan (if vegan is not eating bugs, too). I know of one group in India's past (cannot recall the name right off the top of my head) that historically followed veganism. It is a group that I've heard often touted by some vegans as proof that humans don't really need vitamin B12 supplements and that full veganism is fully possible for the human body, without supplements.
However, archaeological evidence showed that in the past, things like veggies, lentils, and grains contained much larger amounts of, well, bugs and bug parts, if not bits of small animals. Enough, in fact, to provide the vitamin B12 that are essential to humans.
We still have bugs and bug parts in our food now, we just have a lot less of it, so most vegans are actually eating at least some insects now, too. The gov't actually has rules about how many bugs are allowed in food during processing, like how many of a certain type of bug (like mites or maggots), or how many insect fragments, per gram of food. (yeah, for fun reading that will make you never want to eat processed food again, read this article. *shudders* https://www.menshealth.com/health/food-contaminants )
Your point on B12 production in our guts is rather moot I'm afraid.
The problem is that the bacteria which produces B12 lives in the large intestine. The part of the intestine where B12 can be absorbed is the small intestine (specifically the ileum) and that only if it has previously been combined with an intrinsic factor in the stomach. Order of digestion is: mouth -> stomach -> small intestine (ileum is the last stretch before the large intestine) -> large intestine -> exertion.
So, while we do carry bacteria within ourselves which can synthesize B12, we can't actually absorb any of it. We need to ingest it with our food.
EDIT: because grammar... 3 -
I recently discovered that wolfs, dogs, etc.. eats grass as well about 5-10% of the time on their own. And also the Maned Wolf is an omnivorous animal that eats 50% plant based foods as wells as meat.
Also what we would consider to be herbivores would eat meat, plenty of documented cases of cows or sheep eating baby animals or carcasses. Not to mention all the animal matter on leaves and grass.
There is no way our ancestors would've survived with the meager amount calories from non domesticated plants.1 -
Medical anthropologist and vegan here. Homo sapiens sapiens is an omnivore. The loonies who try to argue we're frugivorous blissfully ignore the entirety of palaeoanthropology and archaeology (the "paleo" diet folks at the other end of the spectrum are pretty off-base too).
BUT! While we were evolving as omnivores we evolved a super kickass brain which, as luck would have it, is an incredible example of exaptation (something that evolves for one reason becoming useful for another reason). So we are perfectly capable of using our brains to meet our nutritional needs as herbivores now. We also evolved consciousness, and consequently compassion.13 -
Of course we're omnivores. Somebody had to eat the dinosaurs.7
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No one has mentioned the other end of the spectrum, involving arctic natives who had a largely animal based diet, with an astounding amount of saturated fat, but were healthy and vigorous until we civilized them.
I also muse on what the adaptation will be for surviving humans a couple thousand years after this technological, cancerous culture crashes.
But then, perhaps the cyborgs won't need calories in, just straight energy. Sounds good when I am struggling to make the daily goal!!2
This discussion has been closed.
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