Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Do you take calcium and vitamin D to protect your bones?
Options
Replies
-
@MikePfirrman After getting whiplash in my 20s and 30s from following the advice of articles and blogs, I take anything that is only supported by individual's opinions with a grain of salt now. The earlier links are great articles (in @JeromeBarry1 's post), but I've never heard of that doctor before and it is his blog, so it has me interested but not convinced. Looking at the Kresser website, I don't really put much weight on that article, entirely a personal preference issue. The only other resources I found on my first Google of vitamin K2 were Axe and Mercola, who get an automatic side eye from me, and the like. So this gets filed in "Interesting, needs more research on my part" not "Holy cow, people should throw out/buy supplements and change everything".
I'm not a vegetarian and eat plenty of the listed foods with K2 so I'm not concerned for my health on this one way or the other.
I also take far fewer supplements than I used to, and stopped taking a multi. The ones I do take are fairly low levels, so basically shoring up dietary deficiencies rather than self-medicating, for sure.
His biography gives me reasons to be cautious about his conclusions. I'm going to wait for more substantial evidence before I begin considering my current intake (which is all K1 unless I'm getting some from fermented vegetables) insufficient.1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »@MikePfirrman After getting whiplash in my 20s and 30s from following the advice of articles and blogs, I take anything that is only supported by individual's opinions with a grain of salt now. The earlier links are great articles (in @JeromeBarry1 's post), but I've never heard of that doctor before and it is his blog, so it has me interested but not convinced. Looking at the Kresser website, I don't really put much weight on that article, entirely a personal preference issue. The only other resources I found on my first Google of vitamin K2 were Axe and Mercola, who get an automatic side eye from me, and the like. So this gets filed in "Interesting, needs more research on my part" not "Holy cow, people should throw out/buy supplements and change everything". I'm not a vegetarian and eat plenty of the listed foods with K2 so I'm not concerned for my health on this one way or the other.
I also take far fewer supplements than I used to, and stopped taking a multi. The ones I do take are fairly low levels, so basically shoring up dietary deficiencies rather than self-medicating, for sure.
His biography gives me reasons to be cautious about his conclusions. I'm going to wait for more substantial evidence before I begin considering my current intake (which is all K1 unless I'm getting some from fermented vegetables) insufficient.
Yeah, I have mixed feelings about Kresser but didn't link that article (which I also found when googling) because I am not totally comfortable with his background and thought he would likely be treated with skepticism. Like Jerome, I found and linked the Masterjohn article because he does have a more traditional background and I am a little familiar with him (and his biases), although again noting that I'd have to look into it more. I am familiar with and respect the site that janejellyroll (er, you, I thought I was responding to kimny for a minute, heh) linked.0 -
Just eat like your mamma kept tellin' you to eat. Drink your milk and eat your greens...1
-
I do take a vitamin D supplement, but only because I have a deficiency shown in my blood tests. And this was despite spending 8 to 10 hours outside in the sun running a week, being fair skinned, and living in an area with sunny days 90+% of the year ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I guess I do a good job slathering myself in sunscreen and wearing UV protective clothes and sunglasses since I don't want to prematurely age my skin or get skin cancer. The deficiency also apparently runs in my family.
I get plenty of nutrients from my food and do not supplement otherwise.1 -
I drink 2-3 gallons of milk per week if that counts...2
-
How are your calcitonin levels? This is the other thyroid hormone which hardly ever gets mentioned. Thyroid health good then it should be too.
Our bodies need to be in balance and are more complicated than many seem to think.1 -
Back to K2, I adore sauerkraut, and was thinking of making my own at home (http://www.wildfermentation.com/category/sauerkrautrecipes/), so this is, if nothing else, an excellent excuse to finally get around to that.
Not sure about natto, although I'd try it.1 -
It doesn't begin and end with supplements. You gotta weight train too.2
-
I'm taking D3, since the blood work shows deficiency. I was surprised by thise results, as i spend many hours outside, one of my preferred sports is cycling, and i live in the sunny south wearing tshirt and shorts most of the year. I don't take calcium, as i am worried about it depositing in all the wrong places, and my vitamin K intake mostly from. K1 group. I had dexa bone scan and my spine density was 123%, which kind of concerns me, although dr said it's ok and not indicative of any problem, and my hip density was 69%, which is normal for my age.0
-
just whole milk and chocolate milk for me0
-
Do you have a reason to think bone density is an issue? Have you had it checked, if you are concerned?
(Based on examine.com, I think K2 is looking like a pretty positive, no real downside addition, but I still have that knee jerk feeling that taking a bunch of supplements is not great. I don't take calcium and won't, but K2 maybe, even though I know my bone density is good so I don't seem to have an issue getting it sufficiently with diet.)1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.
My concern is that that guy uses Mercola as a source for one of his links of information3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Here's something on K2: https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/12/09/the-ultimate-vitamin-k2-resource/
I'd want to do more research, but it looks like potentially something for vegans in particular to make sure they are getting enough of, especially, as most of the sources (other than natto) are animal products (including cheese). I probably will research it, since I've been reducing animal products quite a bit.
My concern is that that guy uses Mercola as a source for one of his links of information
Yeah, that's bad. Examine.com seems to agree about the benefits, though: https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-k/2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »My own woo-ish view, for what it's worth, is that it's not ideal to rely too much on supplements but there's generally no harm from including certain of them (I don't take a multi, but that, or of course B12 for vegans, D3, as mentioned above, fish oil or algae DHA, anything based on a deficiency).
The reason I tend to be skeptical of relying on supplements, though (or saying that you need to take them, again with limited exceptions), is that I think we've only identified the nutrients in foods to a limited extent, including the exact effect of specific identified vitamins, and that it's therefore probably better to rely on a diet that includes a broad range of nutrient dense foods and not to limit the diet too much when it comes to such foods (or to think you can just get everything from supplementing in some way, as with multis instead of vegetables or those greens powders or the like -- AND, although I get it's not the totally the same, it's why I am skeptical about the idea of consuming juices in lieu of whole fruit and veg IF one has a choice, because we do know that fiber matters for the gut biome). For ethical considerations (like veganism), sure, especially since we have evidence of many very healthful diets that contain limited animal products (although not none), but that's also why I'm not convinced we need to be adding cheese (or even natto) or worrying about supplementing K2 (although like I said I'll look into it). It's also why I think it makes sense to be skeptical of other diets that greatly limit foods that have been commonplace in the human diet for a long time (paleo, especially the restriction on legumes; keto and the limit on many whole food sources of starch and sugar). (It's also why I think the longstanding use of soy in various Asian cuisines is sufficient reason to be skeptical of the soy fear-mongering.)
But like I said, this is just me, and related to my own somewhat woo-ish bias.
I don't think its woo, actually - I believe that our bodies are pretty incredible and evolution has equipped us to survive and even thrive with a wide variety of food sources. It's one of the remarkable things that's led to the success of homo sapiens.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
(good stuff snipped out by reply-er)
The reason I tend to be skeptical of relying on supplements, though (or saying that you need to take them, again with limited exceptions), is that I think we've only identified the nutrients in foods to a limited extent, including the exact effect of specific identified vitamins, and that it's therefore probably better to rely on a diet that includes a broad range of nutrient dense foods and not to limit the diet too much when it comes to such foods (or to think you can just get everything from supplementing in some way, as with multis instead of vegetables or those greens powders or the like . . . .
(more goodness snipped)
I couldn't agree more. Quite a few vitamins and other micronutrients have been "discovered" and gotten RDAs in my lifetime. They were in evolution-tested real foods all the time. IMO, the basis of good nutrition is eating a wide variety of foods humans have consumed for centuries or millennia, paying attention to the best current nutritional science for guidance on proportions.
That said, I do supplement D and calcium, because my osteoporosis specialist told me to, while taking into account my eating and exercise patterns (which include lots of dairy and seasonal sunshine).
I have osteopenia. I think one of my cancer drugs may have caused it, because there isn't consistent family history, I didn't have it post-menopausally/post-chemotherapy before that drug, and fat, active people aren't supposed to get it.
I took bisphosphonates for 4 years, improved but wasn't "cured". My wish to d/c the drug was supported by the specialist, but I was to keep up the supplements. And I will, until the specialist says otherwise, or I find very, very strong evidence that I should ignore that advice. If not for that (or equivalent medical directive), I wouldn't take those.
The only supps I take on my own advice are a half-dose of vegetarian multi (for insurance on stuff like B12), and an algae DHA (analogous to fish oil, from plant sources).1 -
I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.
K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.1 -
I take vitamin D. That gets the calcium from digestive system into the blood. However, I've learned that one must also take Vitamin K2 to ensure it gets from the blood to the bones. If not, one can get calcification such as in bone spurs, in arteries, etc.
K1 is for thinning the blood. Some supplements come together D3 and K2.
I think it's more accurate to say there is a theory that K2 plays that role, but it hasn't yet been established. In any case, it isn't necessary to *take* K2 in order for it to work in this way, it's also possible to get it from dietary sources.3
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 390 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 22 News and Announcements
- 922 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions