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Why are some WOE more acceptable than others?
youngmomtaz
Posts: 1,075 Member
Mods: please remove this if it is against guidelines.
I am just wondering why there is so much pushback against low carb high fat or Keto WOE but never against others like vegetarian or vegan? A vegan can ask a dietary question and have it answered directly with no off topic replys. A poster asking for advice or info about their current Keto protocol is immediately told that “they do not need to eat low carb to lose weight” while the asked question is often ignored.
I tend to not post in vegan/vegetarian threads because I don’t know enough about proper nutrition on these diets. But, using an example, I assume if I went into a thread where someone claimed to be low energy while eating vegan and I told them to eat some steak and eggs for better absorption of B vitamins, I would be lamb basted.
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss. People typically will not stay on a “diet” that has them feeling poorly. So why are there such strong feelings about lchf? I have a hard time believing it is just about the weight loss claims because I see/hear of may people who think low fat or dropping meat will promote automatic weight loss as well. Why not encourage people to try and see how they feel best?
Bit of a ramble there, I am just honestly curious.
*pops popcorn for everyone though I hope it’s not needed.
I am just wondering why there is so much pushback against low carb high fat or Keto WOE but never against others like vegetarian or vegan? A vegan can ask a dietary question and have it answered directly with no off topic replys. A poster asking for advice or info about their current Keto protocol is immediately told that “they do not need to eat low carb to lose weight” while the asked question is often ignored.
I tend to not post in vegan/vegetarian threads because I don’t know enough about proper nutrition on these diets. But, using an example, I assume if I went into a thread where someone claimed to be low energy while eating vegan and I told them to eat some steak and eggs for better absorption of B vitamins, I would be lamb basted.
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss. People typically will not stay on a “diet” that has them feeling poorly. So why are there such strong feelings about lchf? I have a hard time believing it is just about the weight loss claims because I see/hear of may people who think low fat or dropping meat will promote automatic weight loss as well. Why not encourage people to try and see how they feel best?
Bit of a ramble there, I am just honestly curious.
*pops popcorn for everyone though I hope it’s not needed.
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Replies
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Anytime I've seen anyone mention vegan/vegetarian for weight loss, they do get jumped on like you see in the keto threads. A lot of people just assume, however, that they're doing it for ethical reasons (if they don't specify).
I guess you just have to put the disclaimer, that you're not doing it for weight loss, I guess.13 -
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I have strong feelings about people struggling and failing unnecessarily, maybe because I have done so myself for so many years. Veganism is an ethical choice, LCHF is not. If LCHF works for you - great! If you have to eat LCHF for your health - I'll support you! But when someone comes in here and say they hate whatever diet they are on, but claim that they have to follow it, or that it somehow provides some unproven advantage, I will try to dissuade them.33
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There is push back on LCHF or keto? On this site?? I don't read every thread obviously, but I've seen much more push back on vegan/vegetarian threads than on keto.
Personally, I don't understand why there is push back on any type of diet that is not unhealthy.16 -
I don't think there's pushback against low carb/keto. I think people generally accept that it can be a good strategy.
However, as others noted, I think when people seem to think they MUST do something to lose there's a desire to make sure they know they don't have to, and right now carbs are so demonized it's very common to find people posting who assume they must eat low carb to lose. If someone is saying they hate low carb and are struggling, I think it's important to suggest that they don't need to do low carb and might find another strategy easier.
Personally, even if they haven't started yet and aren't struggling, and depending on the post and how knowledgeable they seem, I may note that it's not necessary but if you are interested it might be something to try, and then answer the question (and often, not always, link to the low carb group).
If someone says they are cutting out animal products for health (because they saw some documentary) or to lose weight, I may comment that I found animal products helpful in keeping a deficit, but that of course if they are doing it for ethical reasons I get it and it can be very healthy.
Same really with most other reputable diets (I'm including keto as a reputable diet, something like the Military diet as not) -- when people mention IF and seem to think they MUST do it or there's some metabolic advantage, they get corrected, but also told that for many it can be a good strategy.
With paleo I will note that you can do most of the good things about it (eating the whole animal, from whole foods, focusing on protein and vegetables, so on) without it, and while it can be a good way to encourage yourself for some and a good way to eat, the claim that whole grains, legumes, and dairy are inherently bad for you is just wrong (unless someone has issues with all three).
But again, I generally will also give tips on how to do it if someone wants.14 -
Veganism is an ethical choice, so I'm not sure your comparison makes sense, but within veganism, if one were to post about looking for meal options to maintain 10% dietary fat and protein (eg: if you're following an 80-10-10 woe), I strongly suspect you would get a lot of criticism (rightly so!) from both omnivores and vegans alike.
I don't see much of a difference, really.8 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I have strong feelings about people struggling and failing unnecessarily, maybe because I have done so myself for so many years. Veganism is an ethical choice, LCHF is not. If LCHF works for you - great! If you have to eat LCHF for your health - I'll support you! But when someone comes in here and say they hate whatever diet they are on, but claim that they have to follow it, or that it somehow provides some unproven advantage, I will try to dissuade them.
Right! And people who are trying to do keto or low carb diets and complaining that they feel terrible or are starving or are periodically binging on carbs happen to start a disproportionate number of threads.20 -
kommodevaran wrote: »I have strong feelings about people struggling and failing unnecessarily, maybe because I have done so myself for so many years. Veganism is an ethical choice, LCHF is not. If LCHF works for you - great! If you have to eat LCHF for your health - I'll support you! But when someone comes in here and say they hate whatever diet they are on, but claim that they have to follow it, or that it somehow provides some unproven advantage, I will try to dissuade them.
Right! And people who are trying to do keto or low carb diets and complaining that they feel terrible or are starving or are periodically binging on carbs happen to start a disproportionate number of threads.
That's true. Seems like every other thread is someone new looking for friends and/or help with Keto.9 -
Right. And keto is the WOE du jour, so lots of threads about it.
@youngmomtaz, feel free to jump in with your opinions on those threads - to be the dissenter. Just be aware that this forum is moderate/conservative in its beliefs and so is the macro recommendation by the Goal Wizard. I still think there is a very narrow swath of people for whom actual Keto is necessary - for any reason other than preference.5 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »Veganism is an ethical choice
More aptly, there's an assumption that practicing Veganism is purely based on an ethical choice, not weight loss. Similarly, the assumption is made that persuading someone away from a particular WOE that they've based in ethics, will be fruitless, regardless of the perceived efficacy of said WOE.
Any push back that comes from someone asking about keto, paleo, fat smash, or any other named low/high macro or elimination-type diet comes from users assuming the OP is of the impression that some sort of systemic way of eating is coupled to, and therefore necessary for weight loss. We need a name for these evangelical CICOers who assume OPs are being fed misinformation and who can aggressively back CICO/IFFYM as those who have a named faction like vegans, keto-ers, paleo-ers, etc.20 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »Veganism is an ethical choice
More aptly, there's an assumption that practicing Veganism is purely based on an ethical choice, not weight loss. Similarly, the assumption is made that persuading someone away from a particular WOE that they've based in ethics, will be fruitless, regardless of the perceived efficacy of said WOE.
Any push back that comes from someone asking about keto, paleo, fat smash, or any other named low/high macro or elimination-type diet comes from users assuming the OP is of the impression that some sort of systemic way of eating is coupled to, and therefore necessary for weight loss. We need a name for these evangelical CICOers who assume OPs are being fed misinformation and who can aggressively back CICO/IFFYM as those who have a named faction like vegans, keto-ers, paleo-ers, etc.
It is a calorie counting site after all...9 -
We need a name for these evangelical CICOers who assume OPs are being fed misinformation and who can aggressively back CICO/IFFYM as those who have a named faction like vegans, keto-ers, paleo-ers, etc.
That one assumes from a post like "I know I should go low carb to lose, but I really love carbs, how can I do this" that the person thinks they need to cut carbs and might benefit from being told "you actually don't have to low carb to lose" does not make one "evangelical."
I think it's important that people understand how dieting works, but I also think that some will enjoy or find easier a strategy like IF or low carb or even 100% plant-based (although I think most do best with 100% plant based when it is an ethical choice to some degree). So I would never try to argue someone out of doing low carb (for example). I would respond to misinformation (like that low carb is metabolically superior or better for weight loss in general or healthier in general). If someone is struggling with macros (often because they try to do super high protein), I will mention that they might do better with other macros and weight loss doesn't require any particular macros. But if they like those macros, great.
I've tried different ways of eating, and always noted that I do it because of personal preference (I used to eat low carb, for example), and no one tried to talk me out of it, because I never posted that I was having a hard time with it or doing it because I thought it was important for weight loss.15 -
I would say it's because there are SO MANY THREADS about Keto. Every other post is about keto. I will only recommend something other than Keto if the OP is struggling with "staying with it". Most new posters about Keto think it's the only way to lose weight. Or "everything else has failed, trying Keto", like it's magic. It's like MyKetoPal. New website, dibs!11
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notreallychris wrote: »I would say it's because there are SO MANY THREADS about Keto. Every other post is about keto. I will only recommend something other than Keto if the OP is struggling with "staying with it". Most new posters about Keto think it's the only way to lose weight. Or "everything else has failed, trying Keto", like it's magic. It's like MyKetoPal. New website, dibs!
Oh, damn! I was gonna call dibs on that!3 -
Oh, just thought of a good analogy: when someone posts about struggling to eat breakfast, lots of people post about how breakfast isn't necessary for weight loss (and even if you eat breakfast you need not eat breakfast food). This doesn't mean they are anti breakfast eating, but just making sure someone knows they don't have to do it if they don't want to or find it harder.24
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BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN AREN'T DOING IT TO LOSE WEIGHT!
Seriously. We do it because we love animals, or it's our religion, or it's our beliefs, or we don't like the taste of meat and so on... Anyone who becomes a vegetarian for weight loss doesn't last, or they stop losing weight when they realize how many chips, cookies and candies are meatless.
And yes, if you posted to a vegetarian that they should eat some steak because they are sluggish, you deserve to be lambasted. That would be like me telling you that if you were too lazy to go to the grocery store that your dog or cat was viable meat for you to eat. I love cows and dogs equally when it comes to food, so yes, I'd be plenty offended. For someone who eats that way for religious reasons, your advice would be blasphemous.
Also, vegetarians take a lot of crap for how they eat. They don't need any more crap.
If your diet works for you, wonderful. Keep eating like that. Be healthy and happy.
Keto is basically the hippest newest thing for people. You'll find lots of information on it and lots of friends. And in a year or so, the next newest thing will hit the forums and the weight loss community and then you can try that too if you like. In the 90's they did it in Atkins, now there is keto, something else will come along. Either way, vegetarianism doesn't fall into this category. People have been refusing meat for centuries, not years. It's not going away.15 -
I think keto/low carb topics tend to have more people expecting the person to justify their decision to eat that way than vegetarian/vegan, because those tend to have an ethical stance to them. Which is why you see people immediately telling people "you don't need to eat that way to lose weight" (assuming the person is making an uninformed choice) or that it is not healthy (the result of the person themselves being uninformed) or that it is unsustainable (because nothing you can't do for the rest of your life should never be done, even if it works for your current situation, or because it wasn't their thing, therefore that should translate to everyone).
Honestly, low carb isn't really that controversial. There are users on this site who find themselves inadvertently fitting into low carb by having 150g of carbs or less each day just by the way they prefer to eat naturally or by being on a cut. And for all the "you'll never eat bread/pasta/pizza/cake/cookies again" responses, there are also users who simply count calories who find themselves severely limiting their intake of certain foods, or just eliminating those foods from their diet altogether because they just aren't worth it in terms of calories or macros.
My feeling is that everyone needs to find what works for them and not worry about what someone else thinks about how you eat. Thank them for their feedback, and then just continue discussing the topic with those who you feel have information that is helpful to you. If you want to try low carb/keto/paleo/clean eating/whole30/whatever, then try it (correctly, like not just dropping carbs and thinking that keto flu is the norm). See how you feel when trying the diet, and decide whether that eating style (or portions of it) feasibly fits with your life. Keep what you like, and discard the rest.9 -
I honestly do give a bit of mental side eye to vegan and vegetarian threads along with keto (and largely stay out of them because of that) as they are all "trendy" right now. Keto is at its peak fervour though.
But the pushback isn't about the WOE, it's about the myths and legends and evangelical indoctrination that comes with some WOE that isn't grounded in ethics. Like vegans who are vegan for weight loss and couldn't give two hoots about their lipstick being tested on a bunny. And doing keto because you can eat however much you want, it's carbs that make you fat.
People believe a lot of funky stuff about weight loss and health and how their diet (as a whole) should look. And generally, if you're posting here to ask about it, that's why, you've bought into the idea this is what you have to do to be successful. Vegetarians and vegans who are doing so for ethical reasons are more likely to go and find FB groups or even ask friends for help with that transition and lifestyle, it's certainly what I witness in my own life.
95% of the threads posted about a sudden change to a way of eating here are not about ethics or preference but about diet desperation.19 -
I don't think it's a matter of acceptance, I think it's more that Keto is the flavour of the month and the boards are getting spammed with newbies who don't even know what it is, but have decided that's the way they have to eat if they want to lose weight. They aren't researching it and then deciding if its right for them, they're being told it's the only way to go and that they must do it and making up their minds to do it before they even know how.
That's why there's so much "You don't need to do that" in response. It's a pretty extreme change for many people, and for people who are desperate and think it's their only hope, it is helpful to be told that it isn't the only way.
The few threads where someone stays "I'm going to go vegan for weight loss" (rather than "I'm vegan and need some help") get similar responses.6 -
OP... start a thread about going vegan because you watched "What the Health" and then compare it to your typical Keto discussion.
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youngmomtaz wrote: ».
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss.
That's an absolutely brilliant result for you. Congrats. :flowerforyou:
I feel though that the pushback is for different reasons, this probably isn't exhaustive and it's just my feelings:- Some fanatical keto proponents have an insufferable air of superiority.
- Wild and unfounded claims about keto. Either from hopelessly stupid sources or seriously blinkered "research" - looking for affirmation rather than looking for information while rejecting anything that counters their set in concrete view.
- The inference that everyone who enjoys and thrives on carbs (that's quite a few billion around the world!) is a hopelessly addicted, junk food eating chubster on the verge of "the dreaded diabetus".
- Newbies who haven't got a clue what keto is who are just following the latest fashion. "I've decided to do keto - what is it?". Erm - isn't that just a little bit silly to decide before investigating?
Is it a valid choice? Yes of course it is and agree there are many tracks to success. It's wonderful when you find the one that works for you.
Is it the best choice for some? Yes of course it is - and best of luck to those people.
Does it have major downsides? Yes it does - as do other diets.
As regards forum hostility you may notice the same hostility against intermittent fasting, crossfit, cardio (!), aggressive veganism, evangelical religion, Paleo, MLM schemes.....
Winston Churchill - "Fanatic: One Who Can’t Change His Mind and Won’t Change the Subject"27 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Mods: please remove this if it is against guidelines.
I am just wondering why there is so much pushback against low carb high fat or Keto WOE but never against others like vegetarian or vegan? A vegan can ask a dietary question and have it answered directly with no off topic replys. A poster asking for advice or info about their current Keto protocol is immediately told that “they do not need to eat low carb to lose weight” while the asked question is often ignored.
I tend to not post in vegan/vegetarian threads because I don’t know enough about proper nutrition on these diets. But, using an example, I assume if I went into a thread where someone claimed to be low energy while eating vegan and I told them to eat some steak and eggs for better absorption of B vitamins, I would be lamb basted.
When I eat Keto my energy is better, my A1C is normal and not prediabetic range, my digestion is improved, my migraines reduce to almost zero. And all of this without weight loss. People typically will not stay on a “diet” that has them feeling poorly. So why are there such strong feelings about lchf? I have a hard time believing it is just about the weight loss claims because I see/hear of may people who think low fat or dropping meat will promote automatic weight loss as well. Why not encourage people to try and see how they feel best?
Bit of a ramble there, I am just honestly curious.
*pops popcorn for everyone though I hope it’s not needed.
The only push back I see on low carb or Keto (and I see it on vegan as well BTW) are for 2 reasons:- The person is struggling to eat that way and is upset about it.
- Someone is touting magical benefits of said diet and asserting it is the best way of eating for everyone.
And I think push back in both those instances is called for and fair. There is no one best WOE for everyone and there is no reason to struggle to eat one particular way unless you have medical reasons to do so.12 -
The problem here isn't with low carb or keto, it's with people who become evangelists for their beliefs in One True Way to lose weight. A lot of responses are from people attempting to disabuse True Believers from their promoting their lifestyle as the One True Way, or believers in a One True Way attacking believers in Another True Way as heretics.
Some One True Way claims are silly, most won't make a difference one way or the other, and some are just plain dangerous. Are keto diets dangerous? The evidence seems to be mixed:
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/keto-diet-is-gaining-popularity-but-is-it-safe-121914#5
There's no diet magic, there's no One True Way for losing weight, there's no silver bullet to slay the monster of obesity. But there are plenty of people around who would claim magic exists, and/or they know the One True Way/have the magic bullet that will solve all your problems.
Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Here in the USA, people have been looking for magic bullets since I was in high school in the early 60s. Yet Americans are getting fatter and fatter and fatter - and most of those who lose their weight gain it right back again. It should be obvious magic bullets - keto or any of the other ones - do not work in the long run. In truth, if you don't find a way to eat differently for the I'm Eating Normally portion of your life, you're going to be a yoyo dieter and that may be harder on your body than if you just stayed fat.
And that's why people around here get *kittened* off at all the woo that floods the forums.
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Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
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jseams1234 wrote: »OP... start a thread about going vegan because you watched "What the Health" and then compare it to your typical Keto discussion.
Ever been in a thread when someone says they are going Gluten Free to lose weight? Watch all the folks with Celiac and legit Gluten Allergy/Sensitivity go to town... and rightfully so....14 -
Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.2 -
fuzzylop72 wrote: »Further: you're not going to do keto for the rest of your life. You're dividing your life into a portion labeled I'm On My Keto Diet and I'm Eating Normally. If you lose your weight and going back to I'm Eating Normally means going back to the bad habits and eating styles that got you into trouble in the first place, guess what's going to happen?
Is this generally true? I get the feeling most keto practitioners do intend on eating that way permanently, although I'll admit my knowledge of keto is pretty limited.
In my experience it's a mixed bag. I've seen some people who absolutely intend on eating that way forever, but I've also seen plenty of posters say they are doing keto until they hit goal weight, then will slowly add carbs back in.2 -
LiveLoveFitFab wrote: »BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN AREN'T DOING IT TO LOSE WEIGHT!
Seriously. We do it because we love animals, or it's our religion, or it's our beliefs, or we don't like the taste of meat and so on... Anyone who becomes a vegetarian for weight loss doesn't last, or they stop losing weight when they realize how many chips, cookies and candies are meatless.
And yes, if you posted to a vegetarian that they should eat some steak because they are sluggish, you deserve to be lambasted. That would be like me telling you that if you were too lazy to go to the grocery store that your dog or cat was viable meat for you to eat. I love cows and dogs equally when it comes to food, so yes, I'd be plenty offended. For someone who eats that way for religious reasons, your advice would be blasphemous.
Also, vegetarians take a lot of crap for how they eat. They don't need any more crap.
If your diet works for you, wonderful. Keep eating like that. Be healthy and happy.
Keto is basically the hippest newest thing for people. You'll find lots of information on it and lots of friends. And in a year or so, the next newest thing will hit the forums and the weight loss community and then you can try that too if you like. In the 90's they did it in Atkins, now there is keto, something else will come along. Either way, vegetarianism doesn't fall into this category. People have been refusing meat for centuries, not years. It's not going away.
I was not saying that is how I react to other people’s food choices. It was a hypothetical.1 -
No, it's just a mad rush to be the person to convince themyoungmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
Do you really think NOT telling them that they don't have to if they don't want to, is helping?3 -
youngmomtaz wrote: »Thanks for all the thoughts everyone! The ethical standpoint of vegetarian/veganism is actually, embarrassingly, completely honestly, something I had forgotten. Of the IRL people I know who eat in those styles only one does so because she can’t stand the texture of meat. Not a love for the animal but just a dislike of meat. The rest do it for “health”.
I still don’t think that having a moral standpoint on it should make it “more ok” and less questioned than Keto eating. Not saying either should be questioned. It just feels like there is a mad rush to be the first person the tell them that they don’t have to eat that way instead of actually helping them.
But what if telling them they don't have to eat that way IS helping them?
There are so many people out there right now who have read all the headlines and decided carbs are universally bad and cause you to gain weight. They look on Youtube and start watching videos of people who tell them all they have to do is eat keto and the weight will fall off, they will feel amazing, and they'll develop ESP. So they honestly believe they have to drop carbs super low, or they are doomed to stay fat. We see so many people who feel like failures because they can't hack eating the one right way. And I have seen enough people here who learned they didn't have to eat one right way, and it freed them from all the guilt and failure and BS and they lost their weight.
Someone who has successfully eaten keto for years can feel free to jump in and give that person tips on how to do keto better. I will continue to jump in and tell them they don't have to eat that way if it doesn't work for them. Just like I'll say to anyone else who is miserable eating the way they think they have to, whatever way that is.13
This discussion has been closed.
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