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tea/coffe/diet pop vs water debate
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This discussion was created from replies split from: tea/coffee/diet pop same as water?.
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Replies
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I know your question was about tea, but diet soda has been mentioned. Diet soda may hydrate as much as water, but it has been linked to weight gain:
http://time.com/collection/guide-to-weight-loss/3746047/diet-soda-weight-gain/38 -
Correlation is not causation. In general, diet soda 'causes' weight gain because many people who drink it seem to feel that doing so negates the calories in the meal they order with it. (I.E. thinking that if they order an extra-large fries, breaded chicken sandwich, salad with 3 tbsp dressing, and fudge sundae, somehow if they have a diet coke, it will magically counter all the other calories.) Of course it doesn't work that way.12
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abbefaria4 wrote: »I know your question was about tea, but diet soda has been mentioned. Diet soda may hydrate as much as water, but it has been linked to weight gain:
http://time.com/collection/guide-to-weight-loss/3746047/diet-soda-weight-gain/
And many, many, many studies have never been able to find any causation, only correlation.11 -
As far as I can tell, scientific opinion is overwhelmingly against diet soda. Consider the below link that discusses the current state of research to date. Is there a single major scientist who is confident that diet soda does not cause weight gain?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/09/08/the-awful-truth-about-diet-soda-and-weight-gain-according-to-science/#4dbd4f7462f8
Also, you mentioned the reason people drinking diet soda gain more weight is because they use it to justify eating more. Do you have any evidence to back that up. Consider Stanford professor Kelly McGonigal's explanation of the more likely reason why people eat more on diet soda. I'm quoting chapter three of her book The Willpower Instinct. It's discussing why people have a hard time staying on diets. "This is a little known effect of diet soda that contributes to hunger, overeating, and weight gain. The sweet taste tricks the body into taking up glucose from the bloodstream in anticipation of a sugar spike. You're left with less energy and less self-control, while your body and brain wonder what happened to the sugar rush you were promised. This may be why recent studies show diet soda is associated with weight gain, not weight loss."
Kelly's point isn't that people irrationally eat more because of "magical thinking", it's that diet soda has an actual metabolic effect which makes them hungrier.28 -
Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.14
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Also note, my second link discusses studies that have shown diet soda causes weight gain even when calorie consumption was the same. The effect was there whether the artificial sweetener was used in tea or diet soda.20
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abbefaria4 wrote: »As far as I can tell, scientific opinion is overwhelmingly against diet soda. Consider the below link that discusses the current state of research to date. Is there a single major scientist who is confident that diet soda does not cause weight gain?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016/09/08/the-awful-truth-about-diet-soda-and-weight-gain-according-to-science/#4dbd4f7462f8
Also, you mentioned the reason people drinking diet soda gain more weight is because they use it to justify eating more. Do you have any evidence to back that up. Consider Stanford professor Kelly McGonigal's explanation of the more likely reason why people eat more on diet soda. I'm quoting chapter three of her book The Willpower Instinct. It's discussing why people have a hard time staying on diets. "This is a little known effect of diet soda that contributes to hunger, overeating, and weight gain. The sweet taste tricks the body into taking up glucose from the bloodstream in anticipation of a sugar spike. You're left with less energy and less self-control, while your body and brain wonder what happened to the sugar rush you were promised. This may be why recent studies show diet soda is associated with weight gain, not weight loss."
Kelly's point isn't that people irrationally eat more because of "magical thinking", it's that diet soda has an actual metabolic effect which makes them hungrier.
The bolded part clearly demonstrates the author's complete lack (or ignorance) of knowledge of basic physiological concepts. That's not how any of this works. It might sell books, but it's not fact-based.
If we put aside the woo and look at actual science, there's nothing there to prove that diet soda is causally linked with weight gain: https://examine.com/nutrition/is-diet-soda-bad-for-you/ (links to studies included therein).
Weight gain/loss is dictated by calorie intake in relation to energy expenditure. A (nominally) zero-calorie beverage will not magically defy the laws of energy balance and cause weight gain just because there are artificial sweeteners in it. Again, the concept defies basic physiological concepts.23 -
Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.
No.
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/12187618...caffeine consumption stimulates a mild diuresis similar to water, but there is no evidence of a fluid-electrolyte imbalance that is detrimental to exercise performance or health. Investigations comparing caffeine (100-680 mg) to water or placebo seldom found a statistical difference in urine volume. In the 10 studies reviewed, consumption of a CB resulted in 0-84% retention of the initial volume ingested, whereas consumption of water resulted in 0-81% retention...14 -
The idea that coffee and tea have a diuretic effect has been debunked.
https://www.webmd.com/parenting/features/healthy-beverages12 -
Your link says there were no studies that were conducted with caloric consumption held constant. I cited two in my link. Let's run a hypothetical, if we were to ask every specialist in the Harvard biology department and medical school, "Does the evidence suggest diet soda consumption causes weight gain?", what do you think the majority of responses would say. I ask again, is there a single major scientist in this country who has taken your side or a single article that has run in a major journal?22
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abbefaria4 wrote: »Your link says there were no studies that were conducted with caloric consumption held constant. I cited two in my link. Let's run a hypothetical, if we were to ask every specialist in the Harvard biology department and medical school, "Does the evidence suggest diet soda consumption causes weight gain?", what do you think the majority of responses would say. I ask again, is there a single major scientist in this country who has taken your side or a single article that has run in a major journal?
Believe what you want to believe. The laws of energy balance aren't referred to as the suggestions of energy balance. They're scientifically proven/validated concepts.
I can choose not to believe in gravity too - but if I jump out of a tree I'm going to hit the ground no matter what I want to "believe".14 -
The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."36
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Exactly, the 64oz per day is not exactly a myth but it's based on calculations of food intake to water requirements and the 64oz included water within the food itself, which is substantial. The marketing myth of being thirsty before you know it is another thing that needs to die. Your body is pretty good at letting you know when you need food and water.
OP, tea, coffee and sodas are pretty much the same for hydration but for anyone doing IF or other fasting they are not the same since they cause certain metabolic reactions that alter the fasting state.
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abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
But that's the thing. They're not.14 -
Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.
This is incorrect, the diuretic effects of these drinks is insignificant and has negligable impact on their ability to hydrate the body. You would have to drink a lot of coffee or tea to actually get the diuretic effect. I'm not surprised that your skin looks better since hydration levels can affect the apperance and quality.4 -
abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
No, there’re not. Repeating something doesn’t make it true, it just makes you repetitive. You’re the one spouting bro science, correlation does not equal causation. Link a study showing causation..........I’ll wait.
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abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
So quoting a business magazine article makes you an authority on the state of the body of scientific evidence? Ok that makes so much sense. I'll turn in my neuroscience degree and take a subscription out on Forbes.13 -
If you want to read research review about it, go to http://seriecientifica.org/sites/default/files/scl_enc_butchko.pdf and into the sub-heading "Evaluation of Appetite, Food Intake, and Usefulness of Aspartame in Weight Control".
Then go tell all the researchers who authored all those studies that it's broscience.9 -
Alatarel75, I know I seem like I'm being a troll, but I'm honestly not trying to. Those links seemed legitimate to me. You guys may know more than me and be right, but I'm not an expert. At the very least, don't they provide some evidence?16
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Sorry about the broscience comment. Having a bad day. I realize you probably know more about me on this stuff. I guess I just don't know what to make of it all the research. Your right. That was a good study. The studies I cited seem good too. I don't know what to say If multiple studies point in different directions.7
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Wheelhouse15, your right. Sorry about how I sounded earlier. I'm not an expert. I guess I just thought the studies seemed convincing.7
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abbefaria4 wrote: »Alatarel75, I know I seem like I'm being a troll, but I'm honestly not trying to. Those links seemed legitimate to me. You guys may know more than me and be right, but I'm not an expert. At the very least, don't they provide some evidence?
I don't think you have been accused of trolling, but accusing people of employing only bro science when you don't know the arguments is fallacious and won't win friends nor influence people. I skimmed through the article and found the usual suspects, correlational studies paired with rat studies but nothing even remotely conclusive.
More research needs to be done but there is no clear verdict here. You can see from a lot of people that have lost weight and kept it off is that they have employed diet drinks and had no issues so in and of themselves they are not likely an issue.
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abbefaria4 wrote: »Wheelhouse15, your right. Sorry about how I sounded earlier. I'm not an expert. I guess I just thought the studies seemed convincing.
See my reply above, I'm just a sarcastic person late at night lol.1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.
This is incorrect, the diuretic effects of these drinks is insignificant and has negligable impact on their ability to hydrate the body. You would have to drink a lot of coffee or tea to actually get the diuretic effect. I'm not surprised that your skin looks better since hydration levels can affect the apperance and quality.
I guess I don’t read enough current stuff about health and fitness
thanks for the info
I still can’t imagine substituting my water intake with any of the 3 though, habits I guess5 -
BetterInTheFall wrote: »abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
No, there’re not. Repeating something doesn’t make it true, it just makes you repetitive. You’re the one spouting bro science, correlation does not equal causation. Link a study showing causation..........I’ll wait.
Actually, I would say, "Link a peer reviewed study. I just did a quick search on Google Scholar trying to prove that soda, tea, etc., was equal to water and found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577072/ .
This shows some causation between soda, tea, coffee, etc., usage in dehydration and linked it to cognitive decline in the elderly.1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.
This is incorrect, the diuretic effects of these drinks is insignificant and has negligable impact on their ability to hydrate the body. You would have to drink a lot of coffee or tea to actually get the diuretic effect. I'm not surprised that your skin looks better since hydration levels can affect the apperance and quality.
I guess I don’t read enough current stuff about health and fitness thanks for the info
I still can’t imagine substituting my water intake with any of the 3 though, habits I guess
Many would say it's the best thing to drink so no need to change unless you want to. Just know that if you want to switch some of your water for coffee or tea that it isn't going to be an issue either.
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positivepowers wrote: »BetterInTheFall wrote: »abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
No, there’re not. Repeating something doesn’t make it true, it just makes you repetitive. You’re the one spouting bro science, correlation does not equal causation. Link a study showing causation..........I’ll wait.
Actually, I would say, "Link a peer reviewed study. I just did a quick search on Google Scholar trying to prove that soda, tea, etc., was equal to water and found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577072/ .
This shows some causation between soda, tea, coffee, etc., usage in dehydration and linked it to cognitive decline in the elderly.
Not sure how a correlative study shows causality but it's curious that it seems to be limited to women who drink tea and no difference was found with men. I only did a quick read though but the authors seem to note that there are a lot of issues with many of the studies that included as well.
I'll have to look more into this since this looks pretty interesting but at this time it seems that the results are rather muddled.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Sure the content is mostly water, but coffee and tea are also diuretic so I don’t count them into my 6 glass a day consumption. The amount of water doesn’t affect my weight much, but my skin looks better and my head hurts when I don’t drink enough.
This is incorrect, the diuretic effects of these drinks is insignificant and has negligable impact on their ability to hydrate the body. You would have to drink a lot of coffee or tea to actually get the diuretic effect. I'm not surprised that your skin looks better since hydration levels can affect the apperance and quality.
I guess I don’t read enough current stuff about health and fitness thanks for the info
I still can’t imagine substituting my water intake with any of the 3 though, habits I guess
And hopefully the message didn't get lost that there's nothing wrong with choosing to drink water. I usually drink 1-2 diet sodas and/or iced tea a day. I also drink 1-2 cups of coffee, usually a cup or two of milk and 6-8 cups of water too.
The message wasn't intended to be that you have to or should drink soda/tea - just that if you choose to do so, it's not an issue and still contributes to overall hydration.5 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »positivepowers wrote: »BetterInTheFall wrote: »abbefaria4 wrote: »The scientists are with me, not you as I've repeated. What you have is "bro science."
No, there’re not. Repeating something doesn’t make it true, it just makes you repetitive. You’re the one spouting bro science, correlation does not equal causation. Link a study showing causation..........I’ll wait.
Actually, I would say, "Link a peer reviewed study. I just did a quick search on Google Scholar trying to prove that soda, tea, etc., was equal to water and found: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3577072/ .
This shows some causation between soda, tea, coffee, etc., usage in dehydration and linked it to cognitive decline in the elderly.
but it's curious that it seems to be limited to women who drink tea
This would be me! I've mentioned quite a few times on here that the tea i drink (2-3L a day) does zip to hydrate me. I have to also drink a fair bit of water alongside it. On the days i drink just tea and no plain water i can feel the water retention in my legs, I press my finger into my shin bone and it'll leave a dent! If i also drink enough water then i get no fluid retention.
I know all the latest studies say tea/coffee/soda count as water, but for me this is positively not true.
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I cannot ever accept the people who say they NEVER drink water and only diet pop. I drink diet pop but not in the amounts some people here do
I just cannot wrap my head around all the crap in it and what stuff we don't know about right now. For me my MO is more chemicals might be bad so dont over do it.
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