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When lifestyle doesn't impact chronic disease
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30-50% of hypertension is inherited factors. But lifestyle can make it worse. Any scientific study looks at the outliers but that's not what makes it to the popular press.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21462849
@lorrpb Thank you for sharing. I am impressed 30-50% is attributed to inherited factors. This thread aside, I've yet to meet anyone who went on medication who fit any or many of the categories that fit me at diagnosis (young, female, physically fit, a healthy BMI, healthy lifestyle, following a DASH diet). I have a curiosity in finding other people like me. You'd think with numbers like that study presented, I would have met more by now.
@Zodikosis I'm impressed you lowered your RHR that much! Good job!
I've also been curious about RHR averages. I've seen charts that match RHR to age and fitness level, but I've never been able to find information on how many people actually fall into what category per age group. If you have anything like that handy, please share.
There's any RHR chart for Canada here:
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/82-626-x/2013001/t004-eng.htm
It's not numbers of people, but it does have percentiles of people. (I'm not Canadian, but its the first one I found from a solid source, and I'd be surprised if the rest of the first world were wildly different.)
The post you're replying to is right, though: Individuals can vary in absolute RHR, even at similar fitness levels.
Thank you for some more data, @AnnPT77. So just to clarify for OP, depending on how familiar you are with statistical tables, the "outliers" would be the 5th-10th percentile, and 90-95th percentile, depending on how tightly you want to define outlier. These numbers would be the tails on a bell curve.
Blood pressure is a good topic because the causes can vary so much. My BP was high when I was overeight and I was taking medication. When I lost the weight I became extremely hypotensive to the point of almost passing out with small changes in physical position. Stopped the meds, BP became normal. Yay. After about 3 months, it started drifting up again. No change in weight; workouts if anything more consistent and fitness level higher. After about 6 months it was within 20% of my all-time high. So I just take my meds.
One phenomenon that I saw regularly when doing stress tests on patients in previous jobs was how for some people, BP during activity could be completely different than BP at rest. People would have elevated BP at rest. As exertion increased on the test, the metabolic demand of the exercise took over and they had a completely normal exercise blood pressure response to exertion (i.e. increased systolic, decreased diastolic, small/modest rise in mean arterial pressure). However during cool down after the test, after 2 min or so, the mechanism would flip back to whatever was driving their BP at rest and they would become hypertensive again—like flipping a switch. Never did get an answer why, but it was interesting to observe.
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I don’t have chronic disease at this point, but just found out my cholesterol is high (224, HDL is good—95–triglycerides low—43–but LDL is creeping up—115). My GP isn’t concerned bc of the high hDL, but my husband is (also a physician). I asked, “So what can I do to lower it??” And he replied, “Good question...ummm, eat more fish?” I’m 36, 5’4”, 130. I lift 4x/week, do 30-60 min of cardio 5-6 x/week. I don’t eat meat, eat little cheese, eggs maybe 1-2/week, fish maybe 1/wk. I drink a few glasses of red wine a week, eat a good amount of veggies. So...how do I have high cholesterol? My parents, I suppose. I always thought it was mostly down to their weight, but now maybe that’s not the whole picture. Of course bacon and steak eating, never exercising hubs has perfect cholesterol
So my diet is good (could be better, more fish, less sugar, maybe some more fruits and nuts), my exercise is good (numbers were better when I ran, but running irritates my hip bursitis and knee pain, so can’t go back yet), but I’m not immune from high cholesterol. Argh. I always rolled my eyes at the commercials for meds for “when diet and exercise don’t help” that showed overweight people. I always assumed the diet and exercise bit wasn’t really happening. Serves my proud butt right I guess.1 -
gradchica27 wrote: »I don’t have chronic disease at this point, but just found out my cholesterol is high (224, HDL is good—95–triglycerides low—43–but LDL is creeping up—115). My GP isn’t concerned bc of the high hDL, but my husband is (also a physician). I asked, “So what can I do to lower it??” And he replied, “Good question...ummm, eat more fish?” I’m 36, 5’4”, 130. I lift 4x/week, do 30-60 min of cardio 5-6 x/week. I don’t eat meat, eat little cheese, eggs maybe 1-2/week, fish maybe 1/wk. I drink a few glasses of red wine a week, eat a good amount of veggies. So...how do I have high cholesterol? My parents, I suppose. I always thought it was mostly down to their weight, but now maybe that’s not the whole picture. Of course bacon and steak eating, never exercising hubs has perfect cholesterol
So my diet is good (could be better, more fish, less sugar, maybe some more fruits and nuts), my exercise is good (numbers were better when I ran, but running irritates my hip bursitis and knee pain, so can’t go back yet), but I’m not immune from high cholesterol. Argh. I always rolled my eyes at the commercials for meds for “when diet and exercise don’t help” that showed overweight people. I always assumed the diet and exercise bit wasn’t really happening. Serves my proud butt right I guess.
@gradchica27 There may be a possible strong correlation with cholesterol and what you ate in the previous week and how much. Feldman has done some interesting n=1 experiments, repeated and confirmed by dozens of others, that show that eating high fat, even in excess calories, will lower cholesterol a few days later... People are using it to get better scores on insurance exams.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno
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Do you count mental illnesses as chronic disease? Everyone crows about how wonderful exercise is for treating depression, but for me personally (bipolar I, mostly depression) exercise does nothing to improve my mood. The only thing that works for my mood is medication.
I worked for a year and a half in retail, walking constantly for hours a time, never standing in one place for more than a couple minutes. For me, that was exercise, because I'm typically quite sedentary. (This was before my arthritis in my knee got so bad and before I started MFP).
I had a mixed episode (manic and depressed at the same time, I was sucidial and went into a mental hospital for a week, mixed episodes are very dangerous because the mania gives you the energy to actually go through with suicide) and quit my job.
I did three months of purposeful exercise after that, still no difference in my moods. I make myself exercise to get more calories to eat and to improve my cardiovascular health, but it doesn't seem to do a thing for my mental health.
@jessilla mental illness totally counts. I remember hearing that the mood-boosting effect of exercise is also genetic. One of those mail-in genetic tests advertised that they tested for it. I thought that was silly, as I am clearly boosted by activity, don't need a test to confirm that one. You probably just don't have the gene. A lot of people around me have a mood affect from daylight/vitamin D, of which I have none. I can get as depressed as the best of them, but not from darkness. If there's any chance for exercise to help you, I would check first to make sure it's an activity you find fun in the first place (or found fun when not depressed). I hated working retail, sure I burned lots of calories, but I also came home exhausted and stressed.2 -
gradchica27 wrote: »I don’t have chronic disease at this point, but just found out my cholesterol is high (224, HDL is good—95–triglycerides low—43–but LDL is creeping up—115). My GP isn’t concerned bc of the high hDL, but my husband is (also a physician). I asked, “So what can I do to lower it??” And he replied, “Good question...ummm, eat more fish?” I’m 36, 5’4”, 130. I lift 4x/week, do 30-60 min of cardio 5-6 x/week. I don’t eat meat, eat little cheese, eggs maybe 1-2/week, fish maybe 1/wk. I drink a few glasses of red wine a week, eat a good amount of veggies. So...how do I have high cholesterol? My parents, I suppose. I always thought it was mostly down to their weight, but now maybe that’s not the whole picture. Of course bacon and steak eating, never exercising hubs has perfect cholesterol
So my diet is good (could be better, more fish, less sugar, maybe some more fruits and nuts), my exercise is good (numbers were better when I ran, but running irritates my hip bursitis and knee pain, so can’t go back yet), but I’m not immune from high cholesterol. Argh. I always rolled my eyes at the commercials for meds for “when diet and exercise don’t help” that showed overweight people. I always assumed the diet and exercise bit wasn’t really happening. Serves my proud butt right I guess.
@gradchica27 There may be a possible strong correlation with cholesterol and what you ate in the previous week and how much. Feldman has done some interesting n=1 experiments, repeated and confirmed by dozens of others, that show that eating high fat, even in excess calories, will lower cholesterol a few days later... People are using it to get better scores on insurance exams.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZu52duIqno
Agreed. Cholesterol tests were required for work clearance at a job I used to have. So many people would fail. But if they had the option to take the test again 2 weeks later, they almost always passed. I never failed, so I don't know what food they ate for those 2 weeks, but it was a known thing around the work place, and one person would pass the diet advice on to the next.
Some of my best friends are vegetarians and medicated for cholesterol, so I was really happy when the news that blood cholesterol levels weren't all about eating cholesterol started getting more mainstream.0 -
A few people made the points that scientific studies will often look at a large group of people and the main findings and especially press releases will report average findings across the whole population, although if you look into the paper, sometimes it will point out that a subgroup of people seemed to experience a larger effect. Often we don't have the understanding yet to say what makes this subgroup of people different. However, personalized medicine and genetic studies are becoming trendy and easier to do on large groups, so I expect we will see more studies identifying subgroups of populations in the future.
Aside from the hypertension stuff already mentioned, a couple of years ago there was a controversial paper that came out saying 2/3 of cancer mutations were random (not due to specific environmental or genetic factors). This paper was partly controversial because of methodology (it was done by mathematicians making certain assumptions about mutations rates and types of cells) and partly because of the message people felt it sent about how useful prevention may or may not be. Also, a lot of the press made it sound like 2/3 of cancer cases were due to "bad luck" as they put it, but this isn't what is meant by cancer mutations (you can have a lot of rare mutations that happen by chance, but a common mutation that is due to environmental factors like HPV or something). More information here: http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/debate-reignites-over-contributions-bad-luck-mutations-cancer
There is also a group at Birmingham University who have suggested that about 20% of people don't get fitter with exercise. They still burn calories obviously and can use it as a part of weight loss, but they don't gain aerobic capacity and so exercise just doesn't get any easier for them. They have a set of genetic markers that can find these people. It's not necessarily related to chronic disease, but aerobic fitness is thought to be related to health. This BBC piece has enough info if you want to track down the group's original research: http://www.bbc.com/news/health-17177251
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I am down to the only data that is meaningful in my case is my own n=1 research data. When I have an health issue I read up on it and try some things that have worked for others after I decide doing something similar is not likely to make my health worse.
Cutting out added sugar and all forms of all grains over three years has I think addressed all of my failing health concerns. I under this may not be a universal solution to all physical, mental, spiritual in the world but it is working out very well for my n=1 research.
I do think most people can find a WOE that works best for them when it comes to quality of life and quantity of life.1 -
The definition of high blood pressure has changed several times over the years. I suspect the only reason is that Big Pharma wants to make even more money from their garbage. I don't know my blood pressure and I don't care. It's also no one else's business. I seriously doubt it will kill me even if it is "high".8
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PamLiftsStuff wrote: »I seriously doubt it will kill me even if it is "high".
Several years ago my GP made the observation that the vast majority of non-trauma related deaths are a result of one of three things; cancer, stroke and heart failure. High BP increases the risk of both stroke and heart failure.
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comptonelizabeth wrote: »KrazyKrissyy wrote: »There is no end to studies that show how healthy lifestyles improve chronic diseases (high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, etc.) and how poor lifestyles (smoking, drinking, sedentary, fatty food, etc.) contribute to chronic disease. I keep looking for information on the outliers. Are there studies on those with chronic disease for whom lifestyle makes no difference? We all know that person who didn’t fit the data, but I can’t find data as to percentage of the population who are outliers. Are you one of those people? I am curious how many other people are out there like me. The only influence my doctors can attribute to my hypertension is heredity; lifestyle choices make no difference- but none of them can tell me how common that is.
I have severe digestive issues. People say to eat more fiber, fruits, veggies, lean meat, and drink more water. What they fail to understand is in my case, fiber makes it 100x worse as does tough meats. And drinking lots of water makes no difference. The unhealthier I eat, the better I feel and less hospital trips I make. My conditions are Gastroparesis and Colonic Inertia. What's even worse is there have been nutritionists who assume I have an eating disorder because I don't eat much and like being a small size. Um, yeah a slow stomach + paralyzed colon = constantly full. Not my fault. And the smaller I am, the less unnecessary food/stool weight it feels like I'm carrying = the more energy I have to get things done. Some people are pricks, I swear.
This. I suffer from Ulcerative Colitis and if I were to eat 'healthily' I'd end up in hospital.
And my lifestyle makes very little difference to my condition. Flare ups occur out of the blue and seem to bear no relation to what I've eaten how much stress I'm under or how much water I've drunk. I am at my best when I eat 'beige' food!
Very interesting! However, just to clarify, this thread is about when lifestyle (including eating behaviors) have no effect on chronic conditions. Ending up in the hospital from eating certain foods is definitely an impact.
True! Hasn't thought of it that way. I guess what I'm saying is that eating conventionally 'healthy' food would not make me better and my condition was not caused by diet or lifestyle ( as far as I am aware)0 -
I did three months of purposeful exercise after that, still no difference in my moods. I make myself exercise to get more calories to eat and to improve my cardiovascular health, but it doesn't seem to do a thing for my mental health.
One of the issues in this space is that both mental health and exercise cover a broad range, and broad brush advice is pretty meaningless. To me it becomes a question of what one is getting from the activity, and appropriateness to personality and the condition in question. It's known that physiological effects have a causal relationship with psychological outcomes, but it's not that simple.
Personally I'm very introverted, so classes are anathema to me. I respond best to something that is almost meditative; running, cycling and swimming. Part of that is the environmental stimuli, being out on the trail.
One of the reasons I find resistance training dull is the persistent stop/ start nature and periods of doing nothing between sets. I mitigate that by finding a form of resistance training that is outdoors; TRX out in the forest. Other people are motivated in other ways. Some find running boring because of the very same characteristics that make it quite meditative.
Some of this also relates to what else contributes to the condition. Is depression the chronic condition, or is it a symptom of something else?
Part of the problem is that the advice is bland; do some exercise. It doesn't get into the second and third order of what's appropriate and going to have the desired physiological and psychological effects.
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Do you count mental illnesses as chronic disease? Everyone crows about how wonderful exercise is for treating depression, but for me personally (bipolar I, mostly depression) exercise does nothing to improve my mood. The only thing that works for my mood is medication.
I worked for a year and a half in retail, walking constantly for hours a time, never standing in one place for more than a couple minutes. For me, that was exercise, because I'm typically quite sedentary. (This was before my arthritis in my knee got so bad and before I started MFP).
I had a mixed episode (manic and depressed at the same time, I was sucidial and went into a mental hospital for a week, mixed episodes are very dangerous because the mania gives you the energy to actually go through with suicide) and quit my job.
I did three months of purposeful exercise after that, still no difference in my moods. I make myself exercise to get more calories to eat and to improve my cardiovascular health, but it doesn't seem to do a thing for my mental health.
@jessilla mental illness totally counts. I remember hearing that the mood-boosting effect of exercise is also genetic. One of those mail-in genetic tests advertised that they tested for it. I thought that was silly, as I am clearly boosted by activity, don't need a test to confirm that one. You probably just don't have the gene. A lot of people around me have a mood affect from daylight/vitamin D, of which I have none. I can get as depressed as the best of them, but not from darkness. If there's any chance for exercise to help you, I would check first to make sure it's an activity you find fun in the first place (or found fun when not depressed). I hated working retail, sure I burned lots of calories, but I also came home exhausted and stressed.
I loved my retail job. It was at a plus size store and I loved making women feel good about themselves. I had a blast at work. I hated pushing credit cards on everyone and my bad knee couldn't take the strain though. If it wasn't for the knee I'd have gone back after the stint in the mental hospital. Stupid knee.
I did one of those genetic tests. It said I should be average weight (I'm not, yet), don't have a cleft chin (I do), don't have dimples (i have a small one appearing as I lose weight). Sometimes I think they guess. I'll go look and see if they say anything about exercise though, other than I should gain muscle like an athlete (no idea).
I do get depressed from not enough vitamin d. I supplement, even though I live in Texas where it's sunny 99% of the year. It's also over 80F for 90% of the year. I'm too insulated to deal with the heat. I hope I start getting cold when I lose weight! It'll make summer (April through November) bearable!
I have a stationary bike that I like to ride. I try to ride it daily for about thirty minutes at a time. I'm more successful some weeks than others. 1 -
Do you count mental illnesses as chronic disease? Everyone crows about how wonderful exercise is for treating depression, but for me personally (bipolar I, mostly depression) exercise does nothing to improve my mood.
Exercise actually made my depression worse back when I had it. I was on the high school track team and ran six days a week as well as doing core exercises and sometimes weights. Overall about 90-120 minutes per day of exercise. It was a pretty intense sports team to be on, and I only did it to look better for college applications. I had never done that kind of exercise before (or since).
Anyway I found daily cardiovascular exercise to be so stressful, on top of my already stressful schoolwork, 3+ hours of public transportation commuting per day, and 5-6 hours of sleep per night. Not only did my body constantly feel like it was falling apart at the seams, but I also wanted to kill myself every day. Exercise never made me feel more energized or boosted my mood. It made me exhausted and miserable, and eventually gave me several injuries. My race times improved but I got more run down.
I also lost my period for six months. This was over 9 years ago and ever since it came back, it has been heavier and more painful than it was previously. Before losing my period, I never got cramps or PMS, and now I do. No cysts or endometriosis have been found either when I get an exam. That is something that really annoys me because now I lose about a day and a half each month to pain and exhaustion caused by that.
As soon as I got into college I quit the team (lol) and was immediately much happier, although I still had depression for years after that for other reasons. Ever since then I have never done regular intense cardiovascular exercise such as running. The only exercise I do is walking (I also want to start biking). I do love walking though and typically walk 2-3 miles/day (I have walked up to 20 miles in one day though, time is my main limiting factor here).
Anyway my depression is now gone and the only thing that fixed it was distancing myself from abusive family members, and having a less stressful and lazier lifestyle.
Some people just aren't meant to do intense exercise and for some people intense exercise such as running can actually make them MORE unhealthy. My husband always tells me how much he loves running (he's training for a marathon and currently runs I think about 10 miles a day?) but I think a lot of these "exercise people" don't realize that not everyone is like them.
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@jesslla - Ha! Those genetic tests are as silly as I feared!
@dragthewaters1991 - good job on defeating the depression, and finding what works best for you! That is no easy task. 0 -
PamLiftsStuff wrote: »The definition of high blood pressure has changed several times over the years. I suspect the only reason is that Big Pharma wants to make even more money from their garbage. I don't know my blood pressure and I don't care. It's also no one else's business. I seriously doubt it will kill me even if it is "high".
Have you read Vitamania? I totally agree that Big Pharma is driven to profit, which means making expensive ego-serving drugs for the anxious privileged class (hair loss, low libido, sleeping pills, performance enhancers) while ignoring disease with low profit potential (tuberculosis, malaria). However, hypertension is one exception (this is where my agreement with Vitamania diverges). The dropping numbers for diagnosis is suspicious, but is directly related to improved disease prevention.
My whole (large) family has heart issues. When my family immigrated (that's as far back as I know history for), all the men died of heart attacks by age 40 and the women died of stroke a little older. The next generation lived longer, with surgery and some medication, but all died before 60. The next generation, my father's, had more access to blood pressure medication. Some haven't had any heart attacks or strokes at all, and those that did are still alive after age 60. My generation has all been medicated since being diagnosed with hypertension, and no one has yet to have a heart attack or stroke. There are 4 who "should have" by now given our clear, predictable family history.4 -
PamLiftsStuff wrote: »The definition of high blood pressure has changed several times over the years. I suspect the only reason is that Big Pharma wants to make even more money from their garbage. I don't know my blood pressure and I don't care. It's also no one else's business. I seriously doubt it will kill me even if it is "high".
My blood pressure medication costs $1.15/month. It's cheaper than my insurance's minimum copay. I hope Big Pharma didn't spend it all in one place :huh:
Did it occur to you that perhaps recommendations change due to new, better, more comprehensive studies about the risks and benefits of certain conditions and therapies?4 -
To the person above who has cholesterol issues. The body is perfectly capable of making cholesterol if it thinks it needs it. Cholesterol is required for several essential functions. There can be an imbalance in the endocrine system which can cause over production. (I'm only a reader interested in medical issues usually keeping to medical papers.)
Also, anyone with severe digestive issues. You may find it helpful to read up on Histamine Intolerance. This can underpin IBS and other similar issues. Most of the work relating to HIT is very recent, mostly 2005 onwards.
All the best.1 -
Of course there are out liars. My entire family on my mothers side has high cholesterol. They all developed it in their 30's. My mom and grandpa changed their diet and lifestyle, my aunt and uncle didn't but all their cholesterol stayed the same. They tried to take my mom and grandpa off medication but their bodies cannot naturally control their cholesterol levels no matter how healthy their lifestyle is. They will have to be medicated for the rest of their life.
My brother and I get our cholesterol watch closely. I have had perfect cholesterol my whole life, even when at normal and super high BMI, but I know that it is a hereditary condition that I could have without me having any control over it.2 -
Are there studies on those with chronic disease for whom lifestyle makes no difference? We all know that person who didn’t fit the data, but I can’t find data as to percentage of the population who are outliers. Are you one of those people? I am curious how many other people are out there like me. The only influence my doctors can attribute to my hypertension is heredity; lifestyle choices make no difference- but none of them can tell me how common that is.
I don't know about any studies on it specifically, but I know of a couple conditions that are known for specific illness or conditions, but you pretty much have to search for info. on them specifically to find the info, and it never comes up outside these conditions that I've seen.
for example, low vitamin D issues with auto-immune disorders - really doesn't matter what some folks with these do, Vitamin D remains low (some doctors try to suggest a low vitamin D causation, but from what I've seen, it's all correlation). If you are looking for studies, you could look up certain chronic conditions (high cholesterol, heart disease, whatever), and then various diseases, like celiac disease, auto immune disease, lupus, MS, something like that. Wouldn't be surprised if you could track down something.0
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