Flat bench vs multi gym?
Replies
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not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Oh word, sorry. I'm on this at work lol.
Wait, the cable movements are actually what is programmed and he swapped them for freeweights. My bad. I had that backwards.
In that case, DB step ups are probably the only abomination here. But something is still not adding up if he things this is easy....
Right.
So OP it's going been a week, right? Add a rep/set/weight here and there next week and the week after. Hit us up in 4 weeks.
This program made my legs.
EXACTLY
1 week on a program is nothing.0 -
not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Oh word, sorry. I'm on this at work lol.
Wait, the cable movements are actually what is programmed and he swapped them for freeweights. My bad. I had that backwards.
In that case, DB step ups are probably the only abomination here. But something is still not adding up if he things this is easy....
Right.
So OP it's going been a week, right? Add a rep/set/weight here and there next week and the week after. Hit us up in 4 weeks.
This program made my legs.
And please note OP, this does NOT mean - add a bunch more exercises, add a bunch of sets to every exercise, or anything like that.
She's saying if you don't feel challenged enough, slowly, PROGRESSIVELY add A LITTLE BIT each week.
So if you're going to up the weight this week, do that.
If that's still not challenging enough but relatively heavy weight, push for a couple more reps every set OR add one more set the following week.
I would not bail yet after 2 weeks either, you really need to run the entire program is you want to see results. There are small tweaks you can make to auto regulate as you go. Just don't go changing up the entire program, PLEASE.1 -
noo i have just stuck to the workout plan this week i haven't used machines this week and i will make sure that i wont use them either.
Here's a list of how i have constructed this plan to suit myself because i'm not able to do some of the original exercises because of equipment and things.
I will write down just the exercises that i have changed and could you please let me know if they are adequate alternatives?
Thanks.
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
Day 7 - Rest.
This is not the program. Where are the rack pulls/pull ups? curls, barbell rows, hamstrings and calves completely missing. Dude. No wonder you don't feel its enough. I wouldn't
Unless it's all on Day 2 where you said no changes. Still the second leg day is not right.
noo i just wrote down the exercises that i made alternatives too from the programme.
The plan I'm following is the one from: http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html
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not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Yeahh that's what i meant lol, i did think that the step ups wouldn't compare at all to leg press but i don't have access to a leg press machine, do you no of a better alternative for the leg press and my day 6 alternatives at all?
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not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Oh word, sorry. I'm on this at work lol.
Wait, the cable movements are actually what is programmed and he swapped them for freeweights. My bad. I had that backwards.
In that case, DB step ups are probably the only abomination here. But something is still not adding up if he things this is easy....
Right.
So OP it's going been a week, right? Add a rep/set/weight here and there next week and the week after. Hit us up in 4 weeks.
This program made my legs.
Okay ill let you know how it's going in a month then and thanks for the advice.0 -
not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Oh word, sorry. I'm on this at work lol.
Wait, the cable movements are actually what is programmed and he swapped them for freeweights. My bad. I had that backwards.
In that case, DB step ups are probably the only abomination here. But something is still not adding up if he things this is easy....
Ahhh okay then thank's for letting me know i did think the dumbbell step ups were a poor substitute lol i just couldn't think of something that could go in the place of the leg press.0 -
not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Oh word, sorry. I'm on this at work lol.
Wait, the cable movements are actually what is programmed and he swapped them for freeweights. My bad. I had that backwards.
In that case, DB step ups are probably the only abomination here. But something is still not adding up if he things this is easy....
Right.
So OP it's going been a week, right? Add a rep/set/weight here and there next week and the week after. Hit us up in 4 weeks.
This program made my legs.
And please note OP, this does NOT mean - add a bunch more exercises, add a bunch of sets to every exercise, or anything like that.
She's saying if you don't feel challenged enough, slowly, PROGRESSIVELY add A LITTLE BIT each week.
So if you're going to up the weight this week, do that.
If that's still not challenging enough but relatively heavy weight, push for a couple more reps every set OR add one more set the following week.
I would not bail yet after 2 weeks either, you really need to run the entire program is you want to see results. There are small tweaks you can make to auto regulate as you go. Just don't go changing up the entire program, PLEASE.
OK i understand thank you for all of your input and help with this.0 -
@usmcmp from the other PHATvsPHULL thread i posted that got closed..
I don't actually have any friends that go to the gym or train themselves otherwise i would speak to them about things like this so that's why i ask so many different questions on this website it's so i can learn from other people with experience and acquire a greater perspective and greater knowledge overall.
And i have learnt a lot from being on this website so far and everyone has been very helpful.
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@not_a_runner from the PHATvsPHULL topic, i actually posted that topic before i read the response from bbell1985 lol so that was my bad.
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@usmcmp from the other PHATvsPHULL thread i posted that got closed..
I don't actually have any friends that go to the gym or train themselves otherwise i would speak to them about things like this so that's why i ask so many different questions on this website it's so i can learn from other people with experience and acquire a greater perspective and greater knowledge overall.
And i have learnt a lot from being on this website so far and everyone has been very helpful.
I wasn't telling you to not ask questions. I was saying that you ask a question, get an answer, then ask a question again in a different way expecting a new answer because you phrased it different.
My statement still stands. If you are determined to go back to one of the three plans you made up then do it if that's what is going to actually encourage you to push yourself. If you're not going to put the effort in to PHAT don't even bother trying.
It seems like you just wanted to hear that there's something wrong with other lifting programs or that your way was good. You've already heard the answer to that. The only way to really make progress is to stop worrying, go lift, put some hard work into it, and stick to a program.5 -
The only way to really make progress is to stop worrying, go lift, put some hard work into it, and stick to a program.
Q. F. T. ! ! ! ! !
OP, you're severely overthinking this whole thing - to the point of paralysis by analysis. There's no one program that is "optimal" or "perfect" - but I can assure you that you'll make better progress getting yourself on any well-designed program and just getting to work on it than you will constantly hopping from routine to routine and obsessing over minor details.
There are plenty of professionally designed routines out there. You've been linked several times in several different threads to the thread here which lists many of them - even provides links to the programs themselves. Those routines are structured the way they are for reasons, by people who know what they're doing, and will give much better results than trying to throw a program together when you don't understand how to properly design one. Pick one, quit sweating the small stuff and get busy.5 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS4 -
not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Yeahh that's what i meant lol, i did think that the step ups wouldn't compare at all to leg press but i don't have access to a leg press machine, do you no of a better alternative for the leg press and my day 6 alternatives at all?
Have you got a Smith machine? Lie down under it and do a press that way.3 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS
1. This was prior to the crossfit post.
2. If you'd read OP's other posts, he clearly has absolutely no idea what he's doing.
3. He said the program was way too easy, I was offering one reason why that could've been.
4. I honestly don't have the time to follow you around MFP. Please don't flatter yourself.6 -
Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS
You need to train specifically for neural firing in the fastest time against maximal load. This can only be done with low rep training. This is why you periodize from hypertrophy to volume to strength in most programs. Not everyone is doing RPE either so I don't think most people would understand the 7-8 numbers but RPE is a good system of training for more advanced lifters.
I've never run a powerlifting program in over 20 years that didn't do a lot of 5 and lower rep range work, but a lot of sets to up the volume. I've been doing 531 for 3 years now as well.
I'm curious, you mention a powerlifting comp, what program are you running? RPE?3 -
You're not doing the entirety of PHAT are You? That program wasn't designed with natural lifters in mind and it has almost 3x the volume a natural lifter should do.
PHUL would be a better choice honestly.
I suspect you have never done the program if you think that. It's actually not that much volume for a person who has been lifting for a solid few years (i.e., an intermediate lifter). The only real thing recommend is not going to failure the first few weeks of the program.
PHAT has actually been one of my favorite programs, except for leg days where taking me about 1.25 to 1.5 hours. And if it wasn't for that fact, I'd still be doing that program and I only have about 1.5 years of consistent lifting. Hell, I even did this program while I was cutting and I never had any recovery issues.5 -
You're not doing the entirety of PHAT are You? That program wasn't designed with natural lifters in mind and it has almost 3x the volume a natural lifter should do.
PHUL would be a better choice honestly.
I suspect you have never done the program if you think that. It's actually not that much volume for a person who has been lifting for a solid few years (i.e., an intermediate lifter). The only real thing recommend is not going to failure the first few weeks of the program.
PHAT has actually been one of my favorite programs, except for leg days where taking me about 1.25 to 1.5 hours. And if it wasn't for that fact, I'd still be doing that program and I only have about 1.5 years of consistent lifting. Hell, I even did this program while I was cutting and I never had any recovery issues.
Exactly this, you can increase work volume with no issues as a natural lifter. You don't recover as quickly as a natural lifter but PHAT was designed for natural lifters by a natural lifter. I've done more volume than PHAT as a natural lifter without issue.
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You're not doing the entirety of PHAT are You? That program wasn't designed with natural lifters in mind and it has almost 3x the volume a natural lifter should do.
PHUL would be a better choice honestly.
I suspect you have never done the program if you think that. It's actually not that much volume for a person who has been lifting for a solid few years (i.e., an intermediate lifter). The only real thing recommend is not going to failure the first few weeks of the program.
PHAT has actually been one of my favorite programs, except for leg days where taking me about 1.25 to 1.5 hours. And if it wasn't for that fact, I'd still be doing that program and I only have about 1.5 years of consistent lifting. Hell, I even did this program while I was cutting and I never had any recovery issues.
I actually ran PHAT for about 6 months. I began to burn out from it and after looking around I was made aware that layne Norton is an enhanced lifter with most of programs being catered to them.
As far as i know The general recommended amount of sets for natural lifters 10-16 per week. If I recall correctly PHAT is closer to 20-24. *if memory serves me.
For a very experienced lifter it can definitely be a good program but as a beginner or even early intermiedate I feel there's much better programs suited to them.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS
You need to train specifically for neural firing in the fastest time against maximal load. This can only be done with low rep training. This is why you periodize from hypertrophy to volume to strength in most programs. Not everyone is doing RPE either so I don't think most people would understand the 7-8 numbers but RPE is a good system of training for more advanced lifters.
I've never run a powerlifting program in over 20 years that didn't do a lot of 5 and lower rep range work, but a lot of sets to up the volume. I've been doing 531 for 3 years now as well.
I'm curious, you mention a powerlifting comp, what program are you running? RPE?
Submaximal meaning less than 90%. It's hard to become efficient at a lift if every rep you're having to grind it out.
But I know exactly what you're saying and am not attempting to contradict you.
Did I mention that in this thread? I'm running the most recent Boris Sheiko periodization Intermediate program. Very enjoyable program.
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Out of curiosity. What makes both of you say he's a natural lifter? Obviously without a blood test in hand we can't prove it either way. I'm just curious as to both of your reasonings as you're both very informative lifters/posters1
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Definitely do bench if possible instead of multi gym press, unless you have a shoulder injury. If you want to increase your bench, definitely look up Muscle Media's "Add 50LBS To Your Bench Press" Program. It's a great program, got me to 425lbs back when I had a reliable spotter, over +50lbs for me following it. I don't lift that heavy anymore, mostly because I've personally found random gym spotters are godawful and dangerous, unless I can bug the resident bodybuilder for a spot.1
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Out of curiosity. What makes both of you say he's a natural lifter? Obviously without a blood test in hand we can't prove it either way. I'm just curious as to both of your reasonings as you're both very informative lifters/posters
He has been tested and competed in natural lifting categories for years and posted his blood results on YouTube with Dr. Spencer Nadolsky who went through his results. I suspect your findings where are supposition.0 -
Layne is natrual. And PHAT wasn't too much volume for me, I even added glute work from Strong Curves.0
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@usmcmp from the other PHATvsPHULL thread i posted that got closed..
I don't actually have any friends that go to the gym or train themselves otherwise i would speak to them about things like this so that's why i ask so many different questions on this website it's so i can learn from other people with experience and acquire a greater perspective and greater knowledge overall.
And i have learnt a lot from being on this website so far and everyone has been very helpful.
I wasn't telling you to not ask questions. I was saying that you ask a question, get an answer, then ask a question again in a different way expecting a new answer because you phrased it different.
My statement still stands. If you are determined to go back to one of the three plans you made up then do it if that's what is going to actually encourage you to push yourself. If you're not going to put the effort in to PHAT don't even bother trying.
It seems like you just wanted to hear that there's something wrong with other lifting programs or that your way was good. You've already heard the answer to that. The only way to really make progress is to stop worrying, go lift, put some hard work into it, and stick to a program.
I agree and that is what I shall I do
it was just a learning curve getting to this stage, thank you for the help. 0 -
The only way to really make progress is to stop worrying, go lift, put some hard work into it, and stick to a program.
Q. F. T. ! ! ! ! !
OP, you're severely overthinking this whole thing - to the point of paralysis by analysis. There's no one program that is "optimal" or "perfect" - but I can assure you that you'll make better progress getting yourself on any well-designed program and just getting to work on it than you will constantly hopping from routine to routine and obsessing over minor details.
There are plenty of professionally designed routines out there. You've been linked several times in several different threads to the thread here which lists many of them - even provides links to the programs themselves. Those routines are structured the way they are for reasons, by people who know what they're doing, and will give much better results than trying to throw a program together when you don't understand how to properly design one. Pick one, quit sweating the small stuff and get busy.
Thank you for the insightful words.0 -
livingleanlivingclean wrote: »not_a_runner wrote: »I assume he means these are the only exercises he subbed?
Day 1 - (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^ This is probably a fine sub.
Day 2 - No changes.
Day 3 -Rest.
Day 4 - (Seated cable rows - T-bar row), (Seated dumbbell press - Standing military press).
^Probably fine.
Day 5 - (Leg press - Dumbbell step ups).
^ Not even close to being the same intensity as a leg press. No.
Day 6 - (Hammer strength chest press - Bench press), (Incline cable flyes - lying dumbbell flyes), Cable kick backs - Skull crushers).
^ I would say also no to these.
A machine press is not the same as a barbell press. Cable movements are not the same as free weight movements.
Yeahh that's what i meant lol, i did think that the step ups wouldn't compare at all to leg press but i don't have access to a leg press machine, do you no of a better alternative for the leg press and my day 6 alternatives at all?
Have you got a Smith machine? Lie down under it and do a press that way.
I don't have a smith machine
0 -
Not to be totally random but I was thinking about something @usmcmp said about just LIFTING and working hard and not overthinking.
The best I've ever looked was running PHAT and PH3 while injured. I just worked so hard. I gained weight but my body changed so much. For me some of the gain was a bit too shocking, but those were true gains for the first time in my lifting experience.3 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS
You need to train specifically for neural firing in the fastest time against maximal load. This can only be done with low rep training. This is why you periodize from hypertrophy to volume to strength in most programs. Not everyone is doing RPE either so I don't think most people would understand the 7-8 numbers but RPE is a good system of training for more advanced lifters.
I've never run a powerlifting program in over 20 years that didn't do a lot of 5 and lower rep range work, but a lot of sets to up the volume. I've been doing 531 for 3 years now as well.
I'm curious, you mention a powerlifting comp, what program are you running? RPE?
Submaximal meaning less than 90%. It's hard to become efficient at a lift if every rep you're having to grind it out.
But I know exactly what you're saying and am not attempting to contradict you.
Did I mention that in this thread? I'm running the most recent Boris Sheiko periodization Intermediate program. Very enjoyable program.
Well nobody should ever pound out a 1RM very often so very true. My work range is normally 80-95% depending on the training week. I only do a 1RM about once every 6 weeks.
I didn't see it before if you did but I've heard a lot of adjectives used to describe Seiko but I don't think I've heard enjoyable before lol.
1 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Davidsdottir wrote: »Then you're not lifting heavy enough.
Actually no. It can be more beneficial for strength progression and even hypertrophy to lift at submaximal loads. That's why so many programs have you work between the 65-85% range.
Same for hypertrophic responses. You normally want to train to an RPE of 7-8 and only occasionally go to fairly to prevent over taxing your CNS
You need to train specifically for neural firing in the fastest time against maximal load. This can only be done with low rep training. This is why you periodize from hypertrophy to volume to strength in most programs. Not everyone is doing RPE either so I don't think most people would understand the 7-8 numbers but RPE is a good system of training for more advanced lifters.
I've never run a powerlifting program in over 20 years that didn't do a lot of 5 and lower rep range work, but a lot of sets to up the volume. I've been doing 531 for 3 years now as well.
I'm curious, you mention a powerlifting comp, what program are you running? RPE?
Submaximal meaning less than 90%. It's hard to become efficient at a lift if every rep you're having to grind it out.
But I know exactly what you're saying and am not attempting to contradict you.
Did I mention that in this thread? I'm running the most recent Boris Sheiko periodization Intermediate program. Very enjoyable program.
Well nobody should ever pound out a 1RM very often so very true. My work range is normally 80-95% depending on the training week. I only do a 1RM about once every 6 weeks.
I didn't see it before if you did but I've heard a lot of adjectives used to describe Seiko but I don't think I've heard enjoyable before lol.
What is interesting, almost all the programs I have seen and followed maintain loads at 65 to 85% of 1RM. I rarely see any program designed to be at 90% or more of 1RM often.0 -
Not to be totally random but I was thinking about something @usmcmp said about just LIFTING and working hard and not overthinking.
The best I've ever looked was running PHAT and PH3 while injured. I just worked so hard. I gained weight but my body changed so much. For me some of the gain was a bit too shocking, but those were true gains for the first time in my lifting experience.
Yeah I do think that I maybe stuck at the the whole analysis paralysis stage thinking that there is a perfect programme to follow that suites everyone but after hearing what everyone has to say it has really helped to give me perspective and to just do exactly that.. LIFT and work hard and to stop overthinking 1
This discussion has been closed.
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