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Why do people deny CICO ?
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quiksylver296 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
My question about set point has always been - Why does set point only keep people from LOSING weight? Why doesn't it keep people from getting fat in the first place? If a person's set point is say 160 lbs, and nothing they do to lose more weight works, why didn't "set point" keep them from getting up to 200 lbs in the first place?
kimny72, but there ARE people - I personally know one - who are extremely thin and WANT to gain weight, purposefully eating large amounts of high-calorie, high-fat foods (especially high considering their low weight in the first place), and yet struggle putting on a single pound. Again, I find it difficult to believe that this simply comes down to them inadvertently balancing out their intake or having higher NEAT or whatever. I believe these cases are a case of a metabolism that revs up like an oven at increased intake, burning off any 'extra' a lot more efficiently than the next person's.
I could be very wrong. However that makes a lot more sense to me logically based on what I see around me, than that tiny differences in tracking keep every single 'stuck' overweight person even on this site from losing.
Like I said I DO believe in CICO as an underlying concept; I think the reason many people don't is that simple calorie restriction has failed them, and that's due to the highly variable metabolic response to such restriction.
Bolded #1- BINGO!
Bolded #2 - BINGO!
So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.16 -
nettiklive wrote: »Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Genetics. You are basically asking why all humans arent the exact same size.
Yes. So then why is it hard to believe that the same genetics could not be at play for an adult struggling to lose (or gain) weight?
Genetics do play a part. It determines where the weight goes on and off. It also might dictate who has a more addictive personality and find it harder to give up sweets or baked goods. It even determines something like taste buds and what that person finds filling.
Genetics dont determine if they starve themselves secretly the moment they leave your sight or if they eat the whole box of oreos instead of just a few. Its on the person to control themselves and culture pushes people to endulge to sell more instead of viewing food as fuel.5 -
nettiklive wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
My question about set point has always been - Why does set point only keep people from LOSING weight? Why doesn't it keep people from getting fat in the first place? If a person's set point is say 160 lbs, and nothing they do to lose more weight works, why didn't "set point" keep them from getting up to 200 lbs in the first place?
kimny72, but there ARE people - I personally know one - who are extremely thin and WANT to gain weight, purposefully eating large amounts of high-calorie, high-fat foods (especially high considering their low weight in the first place), and yet struggle putting on a single pound. Again, I find it difficult to believe that this simply comes down to them inadvertently balancing out their intake or having higher NEAT or whatever. I believe these cases are a case of a metabolism that revs up like an oven at increased intake, burning off any 'extra' a lot more efficiently than the next person's.
I could be very wrong. However that makes a lot more sense to me logically based on what I see around me, than that tiny differences in tracking keep every single 'stuck' overweight person even on this site from losing.
Like I said I DO believe in CICO as an underlying concept; I think the reason many people don't is that simple calorie restriction has failed them, and that's due to the highly variable metabolic response to such restriction.
Bolded #1- BINGO!
Bolded #2 - BINGO!
So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.
You don't know her calorie intake. You're assuming.
You don't know her complete daily EAT. You're assuming.
Believe what you want. It doesn't change science.
If you eat more calories than your body uses, you will gain weight.
If you eat fewer calories than your body uses, you will lose weight.
If you eat the same amount of calories your body uses, you will maintain weight.
That's CICO. The end.33 -
nettiklive wrote: »
My question about set point has always been - Why does set point only keep people from LOSING weight? Why doesn't it keep people from getting fat in the first place? If a person's set point is say 160 lbs, and nothing they do to lose more weight works, why didn't "set point" keep them from getting up to 200 lbs in the first place?
kimny72, but there ARE people - I personally know one - who are extremely thin and WANT to gain weight, purposefully eating large amounts of high-calorie, high-fat foods (especially high considering their low weight in the first place), and yet struggle putting on a single pound. Again, I find it difficult to believe that this simply comes down to them inadvertently balancing out their intake or having higher NEAT or whatever. I believe these cases are a case of a metabolism that revs up like an oven at increased intake, burning off any 'extra' a lot more efficiently than the next person's.
I could be very wrong. However that makes a lot more sense to me logically based on what I see around me, than that tiny differences in tracking keep every single 'stuck' overweight person even on this site from losing.
Like I said I DO believe in CICO as an underlying concept; I think the reason many people don't is that simple calorie restriction has failed them, and that's due to the highly variable metabolic response to such restriction.
But I'm not talking about different people. If Jane gets up to 200 lbs, goes on a diet, and does fine until she gets down to 160, and it turns out that's her body's set point, why did her body allow her to go so far OVER it, but won't let her UNDER it. And why would one person's set point keep them too fat, but other people's set point would keep them too skinny? What biological or evolutionary sense does that make?
I've worked with people trying to gain weight. When I have them start logging their food and wearing an activity tracker, they are shocked by how little they are actually eating and how many steps they are getting. And these boards are full of people who once they started using a food scale and logging consistently are shocked by how many calories some of their fave foods are. I think you are grossly underestimating how the modern world's easy access to calorie-dense food and lack of necessity for much manual labor has changed some people's perception of "normal" and derails their ability to naturally perceive the right amount of food. Obesity is much less prevalent in areas of the world where traditional agrarian societies keep people very active and still having to work to prepare food.21 -
nettiklive wrote: »So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.
Or it could be that her body is repairing previous damage caused by the conditions that brought her to 95lbs. Could last for a few months during recovery.5 -
back in the late 60s and thru the 70s it seemed most people were thin or average sized. In fact, it was very unusual to run into an obese person. Of course many people were partaking of the drug culture (meth tabs, speed etc) and disco dancing into the wee hours, hence being active. I used to eat outrageous amounts of food / junk food but burned it off being a wild young man. Then in my 50s things changed dramatically as I began to gain weight. Unfortunately I did not change my eating habits and BOOM I became a big obese guy like so many others.. anyway, I did all the fad diets since yo yoing back and forth and finally discovered the beauty and simplicity of CICO and my life changed! So I am a confirmed believer...8
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nettiklive wrote: »quiksylver296 wrote: »nettiklive wrote: »
My question about set point has always been - Why does set point only keep people from LOSING weight? Why doesn't it keep people from getting fat in the first place? If a person's set point is say 160 lbs, and nothing they do to lose more weight works, why didn't "set point" keep them from getting up to 200 lbs in the first place?
kimny72, but there ARE people - I personally know one - who are extremely thin and WANT to gain weight, purposefully eating large amounts of high-calorie, high-fat foods (especially high considering their low weight in the first place), and yet struggle putting on a single pound. Again, I find it difficult to believe that this simply comes down to them inadvertently balancing out their intake or having higher NEAT or whatever. I believe these cases are a case of a metabolism that revs up like an oven at increased intake, burning off any 'extra' a lot more efficiently than the next person's.
I could be very wrong. However that makes a lot more sense to me logically based on what I see around me, than that tiny differences in tracking keep every single 'stuck' overweight person even on this site from losing.
Like I said I DO believe in CICO as an underlying concept; I think the reason many people don't is that simple calorie restriction has failed them, and that's due to the highly variable metabolic response to such restriction.
Bolded #1- BINGO!
Bolded #2 - BINGO!
So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.
If you think the difference in day-to-day activity is foot swinging and finger tapping, that's part of the problem. I've had office jobs where I have been required to stay at my desk while on duty and spent 90% of my time in a chair. I've also had office jobs where I've been constantly up and down, delivering reports to people's offices, running upstairs for a meeting, walking the floor to help employees. It can be the difference between 3,000 steps a day and 9,000 steps a day. I've worked hard over the last 4 years to increase my NEAT. You would be amazed how multiple small lifestyle changes can snowball and multiply over time. When I started I was barely burning 1500 cals per day. 4 years later, I'm closing in on burning 2,000 calories per day, and no one I know has noticed a difference. Little things can add up, and can be the difference between gaining weight or not.34 -
I think because it’s easier to find some fault with it than to do it. I don’t find cutting calories hard but many do which is why so many people are overweight to begin with.1
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First off CICO is absolutely real! The 95lb girl could have really high NEAT! Some people are just more fidgety! BW set point is extremely real, there is evidence if that in multiple metabolic studies of how the body wants to regain weight. I can post them if necessary. Hell leptin, a master hormone, was not discovered until 1994 I believe. Some people also just do not eat that much. There are studies on how the restraint area in the brain in naturally thin people light up when eating to tell them to stop, and many obese it does not. Macro splits may not be that important, besides a constant lvl of protein for loss or maintenance, but I truly believe it can have a lot to do with satiety. While eating "Clean" may help some people lose weight, restriction of many foods, more fiber, lean protein, most people will rebound. Calories will creep up slowly, it is just biology.22
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psychod787 wrote: »First off CICO is absolutely real! The 95lb girl could have really high NEAT! Some people are just more fidgety! BW set point is extremely real, there is evidence if that in multiple metabolic studies of how the body wants to regain weight. I can post them if necessary. Hell leptin, a master hormone, was not discovered until 1994 I believe. Some people also just do not eat that much. There are studies on how the restraint area in the brain in naturally thin people light up when eating to tell them to stop, and many obese it does not. Macro splits may not be that important, besides a constant lvl of protein for loss or maintenance, but I truly believe it can have a lot to do with satiety. While eating "Clean" may help some people lose weight, restriction of many foods, more fiber, lean protein, most people will rebound. Calories will creep up slowly, it is just biology.
lol2 -
nettiklive wrote: »So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.
Or it could be that her body is repairing previous damage caused by the conditions that brought her to 95lbs. Could last for a few months during recovery.
So someone really new to maintenance might just start gaining weight after they added calories to stop loss because there body needed to repair it's self?0 -
So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.
I had to laugh at this!! I believe in CICO; however, I *was* that girl (although 100 lbs) at 18 y/o. I never played any sports or was very active. I was not and am not fidgety. Pretty low key. I ate like horse. At age 8, when we went to our weekly steakhouse dinner, I started ordering the adult meal. Always had a healthy appetite, always had dessert, could never gain a pound. I tried. I was made fun of sometimes for being so thin.
There are just some things you can't explain. I don't have this "problem" anymore.
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Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »psychod787 wrote: »First off CICO is absolutely real! The 95lb girl could have really high NEAT! Some people are just more fidgety! BW set point is extremely real, there is evidence if that in multiple metabolic studies of how the body wants to regain weight. I can post them if necessary. Hell leptin, a master hormone, was not discovered until 1994 I believe. Some people also just do not eat that much. There are studies on how the restraint area in the brain in naturally thin people light up when eating to tell them to stop, and many obese it does not. Macro splits may not be that important, besides a constant lvl of protein for loss or maintenance, but I truly believe it can have a lot to do with satiety. While eating "Clean" may help some people lose weight, restriction of many foods, more fiber, lean protein, most people will rebound. Calories will creep up slowly, it is just biology.
lol
https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajpregu.00053.2009
https://weightology.net/why-is-it-so-easy-to-regain-weight/
"Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis (NEAT). The majority of your energy expenditure comes from NEAT. This includes all activity that is not related to formal exercise, such as fidgeting or walking to your car."7 -
So a 95-lb girl sedentary girl with very little muscle mass putting away easily 3,000 calories plus a day of high-fat, high-carb foods a day is burning up the caloric difference by swinging her foot and tapping her fingers on the desk more?
Could be. But somehow I find that difficult to believe.[/quote]
I had to laugh at this!! I believe in CICO; however, I *was* that girl (although 100 lbs) at 18 y/o. I never played any sports or was very active. I was not and am not fidgety. Pretty low key. I ate like horse. At age 8, when we went to our weekly steakhouse dinner, I started ordering the adult meal. Always had a healthy appetite, always had dessert, could never gain a pound. I tried. I was made fun of sometimes for being so thin.
There are just some things you can't explain. I don't have this "problem" anymore.
[/quote]
Why aren't people like you never found under controlled circumstances in studies?18 -
stevencloser wrote: »
Why aren't people like you never found under controlled circumstances in studies?[/quote]
Agreed. I'd love to know what my "secret" was back then.
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stevencloser wrote: »
Why aren't people like you never found under controlled circumstances in studies?
Agreed. I'd love to know what my "secret" was back then.
[/quote]
you ate less than you think you did, you were more active than you are now. You likely walked to school and friends houses ect, now you likely drive everywhere. Its not magic.12 -
Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
Why aren't people like you never found under controlled circumstances in studies?
Agreed. I'd love to know what my "secret" was back then.
you ate less than you think you did, you were more active than you are now. You likely walked to school and friends houses ect, now you likely drive everywhere. Its not magic. [/quote]
Honestly, I have given a lot of thought to it. Even at the time, it was perplexing to everyone around me, including my cousin who lived with me and was a gymnast. I really, truly was not active, did not walk to school or friends houses (drove everywhere), ate bacon/eggs for breakfast, bought lunch at school cafeteria or went to McDonald's, stopped at my local High's Dairy Store 2-3 times per week and bought a pint of chocolate chip ice cream and ate it in one sitting. My parents worked so we every weekend we went out to dinner both nights. I'd get a 12 ounce prime rib, baked potato, salad bar. No issues putting it all down and then having dessert. I was really a glutton and inactive. That all came to a stop around my mid 20s. Even now, though I easily gain weight, it doesn't seem to be as much as some other people my age and social circle. But I am definitely heavier than I should be. If I were to eat 2,000 calories a day, it seems way under what I used to eat in my youth. It's what makes things so hard now. I've never had to curb my eating and have a lifetime of overeating habits. Very hard to change.
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Honestly, I have given a lot of thought to it. Even at the time, it was perplexing to everyone around me, including my cousin who lived with me and was a gymnast. I really, truly was not active, did not walk to school or friends houses (drove everywhere), ate bacon/eggs for breakfast, bought lunch at school cafeteria or went to McDonald's, stopped at my local High's Dairy Store 2-3 times per week and bought a pint of chocolate chip ice cream and ate it in one sitting. My parents worked so we every weekend we went out to dinner both nights. I'd get a 12 ounce prime rib, baked potato, salad bar. No issues putting it all down and then having dessert. I was really a glutton and inactive. That all came to a stop around my mid 20s. Even now, though I easily gain weight, it doesn't seem to be as much as some other people my age and social circle. But I am definitely heavier than I should be. If I were to eat 2,000 calories a day, it seems way under what I used to eat in my youth. It's what makes things so hard now. I've never had to curb my eating and have a lifetime of overeating habits. Very hard to change.
you are right, you are the one special unicorn that defies all science and physics of the universe and it completely wasn't that your daily average food intake over time balanced out bigger eating events.14 -
Poisonedpawn78 wrote: »Honestly, I have given a lot of thought to it. Even at the time, it was perplexing to everyone around me, including my cousin who lived with me and was a gymnast. I really, truly was not active, did not walk to school or friends houses (drove everywhere), ate bacon/eggs for breakfast, bought lunch at school cafeteria or went to McDonald's, stopped at my local High's Dairy Store 2-3 times per week and bought a pint of chocolate chip ice cream and ate it in one sitting. My parents worked so we every weekend we went out to dinner both nights. I'd get a 12 ounce prime rib, baked potato, salad bar. No issues putting it all down and then having dessert. I was really a glutton and inactive. That all came to a stop around my mid 20s. Even now, though I easily gain weight, it doesn't seem to be as much as some other people my age and social circle. But I am definitely heavier than I should be. If I were to eat 2,000 calories a day, it seems way under what I used to eat in my youth. It's what makes things so hard now. I've never had to curb my eating and have a lifetime of overeating habits. Very hard to change.
you are right, you are the one special unicorn that defies all science and physics of the universe and it completely wasn't that your daily average food intake over time balanced out bigger eating events.
Thanks! I was hoping someone would notice me for the unicorn I am.
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Honestly, I have given a lot of thought to it. Even at the time, it was perplexing to everyone around me, including my cousin who lived with me and was a gymnast. I really, truly was not active, did not walk to school or friends houses (drove everywhere), ate bacon/eggs for breakfast, bought lunch at school cafeteria or went to McDonald's, stopped at my local High's Dairy Store 2-3 times per week and bought a pint of chocolate chip ice cream and ate it in one sitting. My parents worked so we every weekend we went out to dinner both nights. I'd get a 12 ounce prime rib, baked potato, salad bar. No issues putting it all down and then having dessert. I was really a glutton and inactive. That all came to a stop around my mid 20s. Even now, though I easily gain weight, it doesn't seem to be as much as some other people my age and social circle. But I am definitely heavier than I should be. If I were to eat 2,000 calories a day, it seems way under what I used to eat in my youth. It's what makes things so hard now. I've never had to curb my eating and have a lifetime of overeating habits. Very hard to change.
I think there are a couple of things to keep in mind.
1. Growing uses up a lot of energy. It's a cliche that teenagers can eat an insane amount of food to fuel all the growing and the physical changes they are going through for a reason.
2. It is really difficult to accurately remember the details of even super important events when we were children. I've gone back to places I used to go when I was a child and been shocked by how much smaller, or bland, or whatever it was. I've discussed holidays with cousins who remember them entirely differently. Our brains construct our memories based on shards of information and build on assumptions that might not be accurate.
I don't mean to invalidate your memories or your current struggle. But most people can't accurately guess their current calorie and activity levels. Guessing calorie and activity levels from years ago is damn near impossible!27
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