Cutting aggressively -- How low can I go without losing muscle?
Replies
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I'm a 49-year-old male, 5'10", currently 168 pounds. I lift weights four times a week. I walk at least 30 mins a day, and I do cardio 1-2 times a week. But I have an office job, so apart from that exercise my lifestyle is pretty sedentary.
I'm aggressively cutting to lose the last 10-12 pounds of fat I need to drop to get really ripped. But I've got a decent amount of muscle, and I don't want to lose my gains.
How low can I go in my caloric intake without losing muscle? Assume I'm getting at least 150-175 grams of protein a day. I'm currently eating about 1,500 cals/day and I'm not getting weaker, but can I go any lower than that?
Cutting aggressively will make you loose your gains...no doubt about it and eating at 1500 calories is just crazy. I am 5'9 @ 165 lbs and I never went lower than 2000 calories on a cut, so imagine you at 5'10 @ 168 lbs...you shouldn't be starving yourself that low. I don't see why you need to cut weight aggressively, you're not obese, you don't have a lot of fat to lose.6 -
gearfreegains wrote: »
These charts are just a guideline. How did you measure your bodyfat %? Also if you are very lean with lack of definition and abs, you could be lacking the muscle base to have them show.4 -
@gearfreegains Blame genetics.2
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gearfreegains wrote: »gearfreegains wrote: »
These charts are just a guideline. How did you measure your bodyfat %? Also if you are very lean with lack of definition and abs, you could be lacking the muscle base to have them show.
Ya I guess these charts really are just a general idea and not exact. I’m sure different people will be able to see abs at different BF %’s. I’ve seen a guy at ~15 - 16 and had a flat stomach. At that range I’d look pudgy.
Yea a combination of genetics and muscle. If you have more muscle on your frame you will likely look leaner at a higher bodyfat.0 -
As we age the ability to gain muscle fast decreases markedly.
As the amount of training we have under our belt increases the ability to gain muscle fast and easily rapidly decreases.
As we get leaner the ability to sustain rapid rate of fat loss without risking muscle loss decreases.
You have done well so far, don't throw it away due to impatience.
This! ^^ I think you are crazy to want to cut so aggressively. Especially in light of the fact that you don't want to lose muscle. At 1500 cals per day, that is pretty much guaranteed.3 -
I have been losing weight by fasting 24-36 hours at a time (occasionally longer, but not now that I have less body fat). During this time I have gained a fair amount of muscle. Fasters claim that it works differently than calorie restriction, and I have definitely found that to be the case.16
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qofmiwok11 wrote: »I have been losing weight by fasting 24-36 hours at a time (occasionally longer, but not now that I have less body fat). During this time I have gained a fair amount of muscle. Fasters claim that it works differently than calorie restriction, and I have definitely found that to be the case.
Lol! Oh really? And just how did you gain this muscle while fasting? And how did you measure the muscle gains? This ought to be interesting. If you are right, there are medical researchers that would love to hear about this!!3 -
qofmiwok11 wrote: »I have been losing weight by fasting 24-36 hours at a time (occasionally longer, but not now that I have less body fat). During this time I have gained a fair amount of muscle. Fasters claim that it works differently than calorie restriction, and I have definitely found that to be the case.
Lol! Oh really? And just how did you gain this muscle while fasting? And how did you measure the muscle gains? This ought to be interesting. If you are right, there are medical researchers that would love to hear about this!!
Well...it IS April Fool's day, after all.
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qofmiwok11 wrote: »I have been losing weight by fasting 24-36 hours at a time (occasionally longer, but not now that I have less body fat). During this time I have gained a fair amount of muscle. Fasters claim that it works differently than calorie restriction, and I have definitely found that to be the case.
Lol! Oh really? And just how did you gain this muscle while fasting? And how did you measure the muscle gains? This ought to be interesting. If you are right, there are medical researchers that would love to hear about this!!
Well...it IS April Fool's day, after all.
I emphasize more on the word "Fool"2 -
Everybody on this site always asks, "Why are you in such a hurry?"
LOL. I understand the gist of the response -- that trying to lose weight too fast by cutting too much could cause you to lose lean muscle. But really, isn't the answer to the question completely obvious?
We all want to feel and look our best. Of course I want to get there sooner rather than later. Wouldn't you?
Would you rather be ripped by next week, or do you want to wait until next year? It's like asking someone, "Would you rather have a million dollars now, or should I give it to you some time in 2021?" I don't know anyone who wouldn't much rather prefer the former.
So yeah, of course I want to get there soon. Now, I don't want to go so fast that it ends up being detrimental, but that's exactly why I posted this thread.
The consensus seems to be that 1500 cal/day is too low. OK, so what is a better number? I've done about 2000/day for an extended period of time (a month or more) without losing any strength, so it seems like I might be able to go lower than that, provided I get enough protein.
I did buy the Lyle McDonald book (Ultimate Diet 2.0). That is way more advanced than I can handle right now. He says it's really geared toward people who have already gotten down to 12-15% BF, so I'm not going to try it yet.
I figure I'm somewhere about 20% BF. I'll do a DEXA soon to get a better estimate. But for now let's go with that.
Ultimately I'd love to get down to 10% BF, but it seems like 15% is a more realistic intermediate goal. By my calculations, I need to get down to about 160 lbs to be at 15%. Does that sound right?
That's much lighter than I thought I'd be when I started on this journey a year ago. (Again, I weight 265 lbs then.) I am a pretty strong guy for someone who's heading towards skinny fat (LOL again). I can do 12 reps of 120 lb overhead barbell presses without breaking a sweat. Is that typical for a muscular 160 lb person?9 -
As we age the ability to gain muscle fast decreases markedly.
As the amount of training we have under our belt increases the ability to gain muscle fast and easily rapidly decreases.
As we get leaner the ability to sustain rapid rate of fat loss without risking muscle loss decreases.
You have done well so far, don't throw it away due to impatience.
Comparing getting ripped in a week to receiving a gift of a million dollars are not two things in the same category.
Getting ripped in week is not even a thing. Goal wise, I want to get lean enough to show the muscle I have kept during my cut stage after purposeful building of muscle. So, becoming over fat and under muscled and giving up my progress in lieu of impatience NO (eta: I will be 50 in a few months, taking steps back wards after working hard to build it is something I try hard to avoid).5 -
Everybody on this site always asks, "Why are you in such a hurry?"
LOL. I understand the gist of the response -- that trying to lose weight too fast by cutting too much could cause you to lose lean muscle. But really, isn't the answer to the question completely obvious?
We all want to feel and look our best. Of course I want to get there sooner rather than later. Wouldn't you?
Would you rather be ripped by next week, or do you want to wait until next year? It's like asking someone, "Would you rather have a million dollars now, or should I give it to you some time in 2021?" I don't know anyone who wouldn't much rather prefer the former.
So yeah, of course I want to get there soon. Now, I don't want to go so fast that it ends up being detrimental, but that's exactly why I posted this thread.
The consensus seems to be that 1500 cal/day is too low. OK, so what is a better number? I've done about 2000/day for an extended period of time (a month or more) without losing any strength, so it seems like I might be able to go lower than that, provided I get enough protein.
I did buy the Lyle McDonald book (Ultimate Diet 2.0). That is way more advanced than I can handle right now. He says it's really geared toward people who have already gotten down to 12-15% BF, so I'm not going to try it yet.
I figure I'm somewhere about 20% BF. I'll do a DEXA soon to get a better estimate. But for now let's go with that.
Ultimately I'd love to get down to 10% BF, but it seems like 15% is a more realistic intermediate goal. By my calculations, I need to get down to about 160 lbs to be at 15%. Does that sound right?
That's much lighter than I thought I'd be when I started on this journey a year ago. (Again, I weight 265 lbs then.) I am a pretty strong guy for someone who's heading towards skinny fat (LOL again). I can do 12 reps of 120 lb overhead barbell presses without breaking a sweat. Is that typical for a muscular 160 lb person?
Well if your goal is to lose weight fast without losing muscles, you can't do both with an agressive weight loss regardless of how much you eat in calories. If you lose over 2 pounds per week, you will lose a lot of muscles. There is no way around it, which is why we're all telling you it's not recommended. If you're goal is to lose weight asap without caring about muscle loss, it's a different story, but this is not the case.3 -
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Would you rather be ripped by next week, or do you want to wait until next year?
But you can't get ripped by next week from where you are now!
It's like asking someone, "Would you rather have a million thousand dollars now, or should I give a million dollars you some time in 2021?" I don't know anyone who wouldn't much rather prefer the former latter.
FIFY
The consensus seems to be that 1500 cal/day is too low. OK, so what is a better number? I've done about 2000/day for an extended period of time (a month or more) without losing any strength, so it seems like I might be able to go lower than that, provided I get enough protein.
Go by your rate of loss not a number, losing strength when you are still really novice/intermediate at lifting would indicate a disastrous deficit. If you aren't actually gaining strength then there's a very good chance you are doing it wrong (either training or diet).
I can do 12 reps of 120 lb overhead barbell presses without breaking a sweat. Is that typical for a muscular 160 lb person?
It's really not a lot. You are probably in intermediate level, you will need to be lifting over body weight (1RM) to get into advanced.
Personal experience for comparison although I was a few years older than you at the time (53/54).....
After getting to approx 20% BF a deficit of 1lb/week saw me lose some lean mass while gaining strength slowly.
Changing to a tiny deficit (1lb/month!) saw me have a net gain of LBM while making rapid increases in strength - up 50% in a year. (Do remember that although muscle is lean mass not all lean mass is muscle....)
That worked for me as my personal priorities were strength and performance over aesthetics, I have zero desire to get to very low BF% though, it's not worth the sacrifice to me. YMMV of course.
I could surmise/guess that 0.5lbs/week would have given me a balance of losing fat faster while not losing muscle but progressing in the gym slower.
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For me I am 5’7 183lbs and 14.3% bf. My goal like you is to drop down to 10%. I am cutting calories to about 1700 per day with a macro breakdown of 50/35/15 of protein/ starch carbs/fats. For me this is only sustainable for 8 weeks max. I also don’t include fiberous carbs in my total calories so in the evening I eat a good bit of green vegetables. I am also doing 20+ min of steady state cardio 5x per week. Starch carbs are before 3:00pm. This is my second year cutting like this and it require a lot of discipline and hard work but as it’s been said before everyone’s body reacts differently so what works for me may not work for everyone else and we are all starting at a different point as well. Good luck and keep up the good work0
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Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
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catherineg3 wrote: »
Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
I'm sorry but this is all very false,..lowering your carbs can help you stay in a deficit but plenty of people (myself included) lose and cut on higher carbs. Many lifters, including myself find their performance suffers on low carb or keto, and if my workouts are suboptimal, my results would follow. I had great progress cutting after each bulk cycle eating candy as my preworkout (gasp!)
@catherineg3.. you continue to spread this information around.. just curious.. how do find lifting while eating low carb..how are your strength and stamina levels? what kind of results have you had, what kind bodyfat % are you currently maintaining?9 -
catherineg3 wrote: »
Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
^ Worst advice in the entire thread so far. Dietdoctor is full of pseudoscience/junk science and some of this woo comes from Jason Fung, who is a laughingstock amongst the evidence-based nutrition industry. His whacky theories have been soundly and scientifically debunked as garbage.
For starters: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
In regards to insulin: https://weightology.net/insulin-an-undeserved-bad-reputation/
(actual science, rather than dietdoctor/Fung's nonsense)8 -
catherineg3 wrote: »
Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
Nope. Your understanding of lipolysis and the role and function of insulin is just plain wrong.4 -
catherineg3 wrote: »
Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
Nope. Your understanding of lipolysis and the role and function of insulin is just plain wrong.
Not to mention the fact that insulin is also an anabolic hormone. Hint: Bodybuilders don't intentionally use exogenous insulin with the intention of increasing their fat stores. Perhaps this will help (again, actual science, not dietdoctor/Fung woo): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/218647524 -
Insulin apears to be more of an anti catabolic
Hormone
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16705065/0 -
Ridiculous and I am not surprised you are promoting keto diet, it's a typical and false answer. I lost 25 lbs with eating over 200 grams of carbs per day and this with doing lifting alone (no cardio). Whatever diet you chose will be based on personal preference, no diet is superior and NO META-ANALYSIS proves what you say to be true. Ignoring carbs won't make you lose fat more efficiently calorie for calorie. This is the kind of information that keeps popping out way too often which provides newbies with bad information and are almost forced to adopt one diet.catherineg3 wrote: »
Obviously, the calories in calories out model isn't doing what you want it to do. I would suggest trying a different approach. First, I think you've heard this enough, but I do still agree - To preserve muscle, don't drop your protein intake and don't drop your calories too low.I JUST WANT TO LOSE FAT WITHOUT LOSING MUSCLE.
carbs cause insulin rise, which tells your body to store fat, not burn it. you will be able to burn your own fat AFTER you have reduced your insulin levels. Two possible approaches, or try a combination of both:
1. reduce the amount of carbs you are eating, particularly refined grains and sugars which cause the greatest rise in insulin levels. Low Carb High Fat (LCHF) or Keto says replace carbs with enough fat (no insulin response) that you don't feel hungry. Dietdoctor.com website has good info to get started.
2. reduce the amount of time that you have higher insulin by eating only during a limited time period. Look up time-restricted eating, leangains, or intermittant fasting. I'm currently doing about 16 hours "fasting" and 8 hours feeding time each day.
I am glad a few has called this person out for this bad advice.
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Soooo....short answer to OP is if you try to loose fat fast, you will loose muscle. If you want to maintain muscle while loosing fat, that will take a longer time, require a calorie deficit (or maintenance depending on who you listen to) and adequate protein of about .8-1.1 (+/-) of protein per lean body weight (not overall body weight).
You could switch up and try a keto/low carb diet which is basically still regular food (meat, eggs, fish, leafy veg) just no complex carbs/potatoes, grains, corn, rice, bread. It's not voodoo or something magical. The concept being your body changing it's energy source from sugar incoming from food or stored as glycogen in your muscles to utilizing incoming fat, or stored fat which why SOME people see a fat loss on keto/low carb. Be advised it's not a diet for everyone. I've done this type of diet since 1999. Lost FAT and kept it off (went from 195 to 170 on average). But others have a hard time staying full and having engergy and if you don't get into Ketosis (the full fat adapted stage), you can feel like crap, low engergy, less focus.
Just an idea as an altnerative to what you are doing. Otherwise you can loose fat while maintaining, it just wont come as fast as you'd like.
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Oh, my previous post may suggest that a keto or low carb diet will allow you to burn fat fast without loosing muscle, but that’s not the case. The post above mine is actually pretty accurate, you’ll loose at the same rate. Changing to low You might see a faster weight (not necessarily body fat) dip as you won’t hold as much water. My suggestion on low carb is an alternate to other dietary choices. And for some (myself included) this type of diet is easier for me to stick to for long term. It is a preference based on each individual. Same as any other dietary or workout plan.1
https://youtu.be/BhLIsFFsPAA
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