Carbs/Protein/Glycogen

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  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3850644/
    Conclusion and perspectives
    There is a growing body of literature analysing the impact that co-ingestion of protein-carbohydrate versus carbohydrate alone has on protein synthesis. However, there are far fewer studies examining the actions of co-ingested carbohydrate-protein compared to protein alone. More importantly, no chronic study has addressed the effects of adding carbohydrate to protein compared to protein alone on muscle hypertrophy.

    In conclusion, whilst it cannot be excluded that carbohydrate addition may provide benefits for recovering athletes, on the basis of available data, no further beneficial actions of carbohydrates, irrespective of GI, are evident concerning muscle hypertrophy when a protein supplement that maximally stimulate muscle protein synthesis is ingested. Further studies are required before conclusions and recommendations can be made.

    Jury is out...

    I know a few bodybuilders though, and they kill the carbs and the protein and only do lower carb when they're cutting and only do keto for a couple weeks or so before a show.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    @AnvilHead based off this, would you say it’s safe to say that 20-40g or carbs before a workout, and maybe a similar amount right after - is all that would be needed for them to fulfill their purpose?
    Don’t take actual serving since too literal, would vary based in person obviously
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    @cwolfman13 that’s really interesting, and an eye opening two paragraphs. Thank you for sharing that. I think something really interesting could come of a study that focuses on exactly what those paragraphs are talking about.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
    edited April 2018
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    Obviously low carb sucks for most people. There’s no denying that. But I think the science behind it is interesting - and the true affect it REALLY has.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
    edited April 2018
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    ahilton1992 wrote: »
    @AnvilHead based off this, would you say it’s safe to say that 20-40g or carbs before a workout, and maybe a similar amount right after - is all that would be needed for them to fulfill their purpose?
    Don’t take actual serving since too literal, would vary based in person obviously

    I'll defer to the experts here. Here's a short excerpt from Eric Helms' excellent Muscle and Strength Nutrition Pyramid book:
    Finally, whether you are dieting or not may play a role as well. A recently published study found that a group of lifters who consumed 28g of carbohydrate prior to and after training, compared to a group that consumed 28g of protein prior to and after training, had improved muscular endurance after 8 weeks of dieting [33]. That said, it’s impossible to know whether simply having 56g of carbohydrate per training day that the other group did not caused this difference in performance, or whether it was the timing of the carbohydrate. However, it may be a safe decision to simply ensure some amount of carbohydrate is consumed 1-2 hours pre-workout in an easily digestible form while dieting.


    As an aside - if you really want to dig deep into the topic, I'd highly recommend Eric's Muscle and Strength Pyramids e-books. They're a thorough, comprehensive, evidence-based source of information, backed by his own personal results as both a competitive natural bodybuilder and powerlifter (in addition to holding a PhD in Strength and Conditioning, and being a published researcher). No affiliation here except that I paid for the books out of my own pocket and find them very informative and helpful.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,874 Member
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    ahilton1992 wrote: »
    Obviously low carb sucks for most people. There’s no denying that. But I think the science behind it is interesting - and the true affect it REALLY has.

    I do lower carb when I'm cutting weight, but not keto...I'm usually around 130-150 grams...mostly because it's the easiest macro to flex. If I go much lower than that, my cycling sucks, especially if I'm doing 20k time trials because basically you're at close to threshold for 12 miles.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    @AnvilHead Really appreciate this info. I might be looking for info that isn't truly out there. Gonna for sure check out Eric's Muscle & Strength stuff
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    So the thoughts I've come up with based off everyone's responses and sitting here at work not doing my job and researching this instead - goes back to what @cwolfman13 posted part of an article about.

    http://cristivlad.com/energy-levels-under-ketosis-fats-carbs-and-atp/

    In general, carbohydrates form the main energy source for the body. They are the most efficient at producing ATP or energy (meaning they produce lots more ATP per amount of the fuel broken down). The body preferentially breaks down carbohydrates first, and then fats and finally proteins only if the other two fuels are depleted. This is important as proteins are generally less efficient at generating energy. In addition, proteins perform several important functions so if they were broken down several systems could fail.

    So basically carbs are the most EFFICIENT at being used for energy. But considerably less necessary for actually building/re-building muscle after being broken down.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
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    ahilton1992 wrote: »
    So the thoughts I've come up with based off everyone's responses and sitting here at work not doing my job and researching this instead - goes back to what @cwolfman13 posted part of an article about.

    http://cristivlad.com/energy-levels-under-ketosis-fats-carbs-and-atp/

    In general, carbohydrates form the main energy source for the body. They are the most efficient at producing ATP or energy (meaning they produce lots more ATP per amount of the fuel broken down). The body preferentially breaks down carbohydrates first, and then fats and finally proteins only if the other two fuels are depleted. This is important as proteins are generally less efficient at generating energy. In addition, proteins perform several important functions so if they were broken down several systems could fail.

    So basically carbs are the most EFFICIENT at being used for energy. But considerably less necessary for actually building/re-building muscle after being broken down.

    Muscle protein synthesis is a completely different topic than fueling your workouts. It's like talking about both top speed and fuel mileage when taking a car trip - they're both going to contribute to the end result and are inter-related, but they're not the same thing.

    Here's a good read about muscle protein synthesis: http://www.nutritiontactics.com/measure-muscle-protein-synthesis/
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    Great article so far, still reading it but this jumped out at me -

    You only need a minimal amount of food to reach insulin concentrations that maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown. In agreement, adding carbohydrates to 30 g of protein does not further decrease muscle protein breakdown rates (Staples, 2011).
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    7.4 Carbohydrate or fat co-ingestion
    Carbohydrates slows down protein digestion, but have no effect on MPS (Gorissen, 2014). In agreement, adding large amounts of carbohydrates to protein does not improve post-exercise MPS rates (Koopman, 2007).

    In addition to the effects on protein digestion, it has been suggested that carbohydrates stimulate insulin release, which may stimulate muscle protein synthesis and/or muscle protein breakdown rates. However, the addition of carbohydrates to post-exercise protein has no effect on muscle protein synthesis or breakdown rates. The effects of insulin on muscle protein breakdown rates are described in more detail in section 2, and the effects of insulin on muscle protein synthesis are further described in section 7.6.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    So I think carbs are over-hyped lol
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    for the purposes we've been talking about
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    Insulin inhibits muscle protein breakdown a bit, but only a little is needed for the maximal effect (this is discussed in dept in section XXX). A protein shake alone increases enough insulin to maximally inhibit muscle protein breakdown, you don’t need additional carbohydrates (Staples, 2011).
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    This is really interesting -

    Only three days of dieting already reduce basal MPS (Areta, 2014). This shows that an energy deficit is suboptimal for MPS, however you can grow muscle mass while losing fat (Longland, 2016). It is unclear if eating above maintenance is needed to optimize MPS.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    Watching the entire interview - It's interesting that there really have not been any studies on what increasing protein intake during a calorie deficit does and the effect it would have on your body.. those could be some ground breaking findings when it comes to getting stronger/gaining muscle while in a calorie deficit.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    Found this study online. It doesn't have to do as much with carbs, but they studied two groups both in a major calorie deficit, but one group taking in considerable more protein then the other. Really interesting when it comes to the subject of what a significant increase in protein during a calorie deficit can do.

    https://examine.com/nutrition/dieting-with-a-side-of-extra-protein/
  • ForecasterJason
    ForecasterJason Posts: 2,577 Member
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    Interesting discussion. I often hear on here and in other places that carbs are very important for building muscle. But if I understand this correctly, it seems like it doesn't really take that much.
    Take for instance someone who is bulking on 2500 calories with a 30/50/20 split of carbs, fat, and protein respectively. That carb percentage would generally be considered somewhat low, but that's still close to 200g a day. It seems like that would be plenty enough for a lot of people for glycogen/overall energy purposes.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    @ForecasterJason That's really what I think. I do believe there is more than one way to get to the same end point. Unfortunately, I think "Bro Science: has become the norm - which is okay, it still works to an extent. But when it comes to what the body actually requires to go through the process of building muscle, I think there are some misconceptions that truly are believed to be 100% accurate. Based on everything I've ready (actual studies that have been done, not people posting their Bro Science on forums) I don't see any scientific evidence that you can't build lean mass (muscle) while on a caloric deficit, or at caloric maintenance. Surely, you may not see the same gains as someone doing a true bulk. But I do believe you can keep that six pack AND gain muscle at a reasonable pace (which is just personally my preferred method).
    And if you want to take it up a notch, and use nutrient timing/meal timing I believe there is definitely a lot of room to get our body to do what you want it to do in a more efficient manner.
  • ahilton1992
    ahilton1992 Posts: 49 Member
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    @ForecasterJason I believe the basis for the whole argument is - although there is nothing wrong with consuming more carbs.. This popular belief that you HAVE to to build muscle mass is not true.

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