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Why do people deny CICO ?
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nellypurcelly wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Instead of appealing to authorities, try finding a single study that controls for calories and protein intake that shows an advantage to low carb diets.
I'll wait
Why? If I find a study, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I find an expert, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I tell you my personal experience, you'll say I'm wrong. I know that I lost weight by creating a calorie deficit, but I've also created a calorie deficit by following a diet that included a lot of carbs, and guess what! I didn't lose weight. I also know that I probably just didn't know how to calculate calories, but now suddenly, when I switched to a low carb diet, I magically know how to calculate calories. It's so odd how that happened.
Would you be willing to open your diary to prove your point?
Um, yours is not open to the public. Why would I make my personal information available? I'm sure if I did, you'd just say that I recorded things incorrectly, or that it doesn't show you what I actually consumed, only what I recorded. There is literally nothing I could do or say to convince you. I'm not an idiot. I know how to log foods, and I use the verified items whenever possible. You're going to believe what you want, and I'm glad that works for you. Just stop trying to tell other people that what works for you works for absolutely everyone. I would never try to tell people that my eating plan will work for everyone. I'm not that presumptuous.17 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Ludwig, Freedman, Taubes, Hyman, Feinman and a cast of ketovangelist bloggers - Good Lord, that page reads like a who's who of woo. I think all that's missing is Mercola, Fung and Dr. Oz. And yet again, it's a blog from a keto propaganda site, not research. Bring something of value to the table at some point.
Here's some actual scientific research review to counter that steaming pile of garbage:
https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
And 148 peer-reviewed studies linked in this pdf verifying the validity of CICO:
https://completehumanperformance.com/2013/07/23/why-calories-count/19 -
When it comes down to it I don't really care if someone uses CICO to mean the first law of thermodynamics or uses CICO to mean calorie counting as long as they explain themselves well. If they hang on the name of the thing without bothering to explain what they mean and they have one definition in their head while others have a different definition is where things get to be a problem, especially if they insist that what we name something is what is important rather than the concepts behind it.
Reminded of the late great Richard Feynman on the value of treating the names of things like it is knowledge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFIYKmos3-s
That goes to both "sides" of the "what is CICO" definition debate.13 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Also talks about the crock of crap cico theory and the B.S. science behind it. Get with the times people. Old outdated false science being disproved every day by 100's of thousands of people, doctors, dieticians etc.
With this overwhelming, humongous mountain of evidence you continually refer to, why is it that your sources are all youtube videos and quack/woo blog entries? Why not peer-reviewed research? How about some science? Because I haven't seen one lick of it from you yet. Nothing but a bunch of unproven anecdotes and keto propaganda. Surely you can do better than that if the evidence is so utterly convincing. Surely you can find some actual scientists/researchers who have proven even one point you've tried to make.18 -
https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2017/09/snowflake-gif.gifnellypurcelly wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Instead of appealing to authorities, try finding a single study that controls for calories and protein intake that shows an advantage to low carb diets.
I'll wait
Why? If I find a study, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I find an expert, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I tell you my personal experience, you'll say I'm wrong. I know that I lost weight by creating a calorie deficit, but I've also created a calorie deficit by following a diet that included a lot of carbs, and guess what! I didn't lose weight. I also know that I probably just didn't know how to calculate calories, but now suddenly, when I switched to a low carb diet, I magically know how to calculate calories. It's so odd how that happened.
Would you be willing to open your diary to prove your point?
Um, yours is not open to the public. Why would I make my personal information available? I'm sure if I did, you'd just say that I recorded things incorrectly, or that it doesn't show you what I actually consumed, only what I recorded. There is literally nothing I could do or say to convince you. I'm not an idiot. I know how to log foods, and I use the verified items whenever possible. You're going to believe what you want, and I'm glad that works for you. Just stop trying to tell other people that what works for you works for absolutely everyone. I would never try to tell people that my eating plan will work for everyone. I'm not that presumptuous.
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nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
First law of thermodynamics...the second law is about the total entropy of isolated system which isn't really related to the change in energy in an open system. Mock it if you want, but at least get your terms right....that is sort of what this whole "debate" has really been about after all.20 -
Aaron_K123 wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
First law of thermodynamics...the second law is about the total entropy of isolated system which isn't really related to the change in energy in an open system. Mock it if you want, but at least get your terms right....that is sort of what this whole "debate" has really been about after all.
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Strictly speaking (at a biochemical level) there is truth to the comment that "all calories are not equal". Some combinations of fat, carb, protein (I can't remember the combination) have slight reduction in "effective" calories to their theoretical value.
That said for most of us.... including me... CICO is close enough and will allow weight loss.10 -
Taubes is a laughingstock. He started NuSI and funded three studies in an effort to prove his ridiculous keto theories. All three of the studies did just the opposite, yet he refuses to acknowledge that his woo is woo. In fact, after being soundly thrashed in a public debate by Alan Aragon, Taubes flat-out said that even if the science proved him completely wrong, he would not change his stance. The co-founder and President of NuSI, Peter Attia (another ketovangelist), quietly deserted the organization as their studies fell flat on their faces.
Here's an accounting of the whole sordid Taubes/Attia mess over at NuSI, all from public record: https://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2018/03/the-manhattan-project-of-nutrition-that.html17 -
Strictly speaking (at a biochemical level) there is truth to the comment that "all calories are not equal". Some combinations of fat, carb, protein (I can't remember the combination) have slight reduction in "effective" calories to their theoretical value.
That said for most of us.... including me... CICO is close enough and will allow weight loss.
Yes, Thermic Effect of Feeding has already been addressed several times. Welcome to the discussion.10 -
Strictly speaking (at a biochemical level) there is truth to the comment that "all calories are not equal". Some combinations of fat, carb, protein (I can't remember the combination) have slight reduction in "effective" calories to their theoretical value.
That said for most of us.... including me... CICO is close enough and will allow weight loss.
That just means that the estimate of CI is off or needs to be adjusted, not that there is some flaw or adjustment needed to the concept of CICO.
How one estimates exactly how many calories one gets after digesting foods and then estimating how many calories one expends exactly in terms of their day to day life and exercise is difficult and variable.
The difficulty of obtaining accurate values for CI and CO has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the fact that if you have accurate values for CI and accurate values for CO then the amount of net energy in your body in terms of your fat/glycogen storage is influenced by the summation of the total energy input and output of your body...which is all that CICO is saying.8 -
nellypurcelly wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Instead of appealing to authorities, try finding a single study that controls for calories and protein intake that shows an advantage to low carb diets.
I'll wait
Why? If I find a study, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I find an expert, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I tell you my personal experience, you'll say I'm wrong. I know that I lost weight by creating a calorie deficit, but I've also created a calorie deficit by following a diet that included a lot of carbs, and guess what! I didn't lose weight. I also know that I probably just didn't know how to calculate calories, but now suddenly, when I switched to a low carb diet, I magically know how to calculate calories. It's so odd how that happened.
Would you be willing to open your diary to prove your point?
Um, yours is not open to the public. Why would I make my personal information available? I'm sure if I did, you'd just say that I recorded things incorrectly, or that it doesn't show you what I actually consumed, only what I recorded. There is literally nothing I could do or say to convince you. I'm not an idiot. I know how to log foods, and I use the verified items whenever possible. You're going to believe what you want, and I'm glad that works for you. Just stop trying to tell other people that what works for you works for absolutely everyone. I would never try to tell people that my eating plan will work for everyone. I'm not that presumptuous.
Once again....for maybe the thousandth time or so in this thread....we're not talking about an "eating plan" or "diet" or "way of eating" or "journey" or "finding your macro". We're not talking about counting calories. We're not talking about the nutritive values of the foods you eat. We're talking about an inviolable, scientifically proven law of physics.17 -
nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
It is really difficult for me to believe that we actually fundamentally disagree here and aren't just talking past one another.
Would you agree with this:
It can be really difficult to know exactly how many effective calories you get (calories your body actually gets from ingesting a given food). That different people might get a different number of effective calories received from the same foods. It can also be really difficult to know exactly how many effective calories your body is using, as different people may get a different number of effective calories expended from the same activities. No current methods for estimating this are 100% accurate and the estimates are largely based on population averages that are unlikely to apply exactly the same to everyone. Me eating a bag of bread and going for a run might end up with a very different calorie surplus/deficit than you eating that exact same bag of bread and going for that exact same run. That said, if you have the actual accurate effective calorie intake and expenditure for a given person then you can from that calculate the amount of caloric surplus or deficit they are in. That if they are in caloric surplus over time they will gain weight by putting on fat and if they are in caloric deficit that they will lose weight by losing fat. That this weight loss might be masked by other factors such as water retention but overall over time the amount of fat you lose is directly related to your calorie intake and expenditure.
Is there anything there you disagree with? If not then our difference of opinion is just semantic. You think people who "believe in CICO" believe that all foods that list calories on their box give that exact number of effective calories when anyone eats them and that the amount of calories burned on your treadmill is 100% accurate where when I say I "believe in CICO" I just mean that if we are able to somehow someway get an actually accurate estimate of our calorie intake and calorie expenditure (like the actual value not what is written on a box) then that could be used to calculate the weight we would be gaining or losing. As in accordance to the first law of thermodynamics.
If you eat 2000 "written on the box" calories of bread or 2000 "written on the box" calories of chicken and you gain weight with the bread but not with the chicken (and I mean fat weight not water weight) all that means is that the way your body digests and processes the bread you are getting more effective calories from it (say 1800) than when your body processes the chicken (say 1300). It doesn't mean that CICO somehow doesn't apply. The amount of fat your body retains or gets rid of is, I hope rather obviously, tied to the total energy you actually get from foods minus the total energy you actually expend in your daily activity. Do you really have a fundamental problem with that concept?12 -
nellypurcelly wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »johnslater461 wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Instead of appealing to authorities, try finding a single study that controls for calories and protein intake that shows an advantage to low carb diets.
I'll wait
Why? If I find a study, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I find an expert, you'll say it's the wrong one. If I tell you my personal experience, you'll say I'm wrong. I know that I lost weight by creating a calorie deficit, but I've also created a calorie deficit by following a diet that included a lot of carbs, and guess what! I didn't lose weight. I also know that I probably just didn't know how to calculate calories, but now suddenly, when I switched to a low carb diet, I magically know how to calculate calories. It's so odd how that happened.
Would you be willing to open your diary to prove your point?
Um, yours is not open to the public. Why would I make my personal information available? I'm sure if I did, you'd just say that I recorded things incorrectly, or that it doesn't show you what I actually consumed, only what I recorded. There is literally nothing I could do or say to convince you. I'm not an idiot. I know how to log foods, and I use the verified items whenever possible. You're going to believe what you want, and I'm glad that works for you. Just stop trying to tell other people that what works for you works for absolutely everyone. I would never try to tell people that my eating plan will work for everyone. I'm not that presumptuous.
My mistake: I thought you were trying to have a serious discussion and might be willing to share the information that led you to make the deductions you maintain. My information is private because I'm not making any claims that require proof.
BTW, I assume you are using 'you' in a general sense and not specifically directing all that at me personally since I have not told anyone "that what works for you works for absolutely everyone" here or in any other thread.17 -
nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Lol yup exactly. It's laughable really. They have nothing else to say but that. Starting to wonder how many of these trolls are paid by big pharma, and the fake food industry lol. Seems pretty obvious to me they can't all be that naive and uninformed. Just have to hope people have minds of their own and do their own research cause some of the info going on here on this thread is scary horrible. Keep on plugging away on those diets people thinking you can eat any calorie you want...we'll see you later looking for help with your high blood sugar, diabetes, organ damage and high cholesterol lol. Way to go!!39 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »Also talks about the crock of crap cico theory and the B.S. science behind it. Get with the times people. Old outdated false science being disproved every day by 100's of thousands of people, doctors, dieticians etc.
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Actually, all my health markers have improved across the board since I've dropped 105lbs eating 'any calorie I wanted'. But thanks for the fist-bump.13
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nellypurcelly wrote: »Just stop trying to tell other people that what works for you works for absolutely everyone. I would never try to tell people that my eating plan will work for everyone. I'm not that presumptuous.
Again, for the thousandth time, CICO is not an "eating plan" any more than gravity is a "weight lifting plan". Some people might use it that way in their colloquial speech but it isn't what the term refers to. When I say CICO applies to everyone I mean it in the exact same way I mean it when I say gravity applies to everyone. Gravity isn't a "plan" it just is, CICO isn't a "plan", it just is.
Now someone may look at gravity causing massive objects to be pulled with a force towards the center of mass of the earth and decide that a good way to build strength would be to take big iron plates and lift them up and down. Maybe they then promote that strategy and given that the training relies on gravity perhaps certain websites or blogs or online sites start calling that method "Gravity training" and promote the use of Gravity for strength. Another person might try that "gravity training" method of strength training and decide it doesn't work for them and instead do calisthenics, push-ups and pull ups and other body weight exercises and they promote that method. Perhaps they then start to scoff at people who believe in Gravity because some people have started referring to lifting iron weights as gravity training. When others point out that gravity is a concept and a physical law not a particular method to gain strength and that actually calisthenics also requires gravity to work the person promoting calesthenics just scoffs and argues that is not what they see when people talk about it, they see the "Gravity training" websites. Well...okay, that still doesn't mean that gravity isn't a concept and that when some people talk about gravity they are just refering to the physical law.
Someone might have looked at the concept of CICO and decided that estimating and tracking the calories you take in through food and the calories you expend through exercise would be a good way of planning out weight management. Perhaps they call that the "CICO plan" on a website somewhere or they make a site like MFP where you can track your calories. Okay....that doesn't mean that CICO isn't a concept and when some people talk about CICO they are just refering to the physical law.
When I say that CICO applies to everyone, I mean that in the literal sense as that for everyone and everything and every object the amount of energy contained within is a function of energy input and energy output and that if you wish to influence change in energy then you can track and manipulate either the input or the output or both. Calories are just a unit of energy same as kilograms are a unit of mass. I am not referring to particular strategies of doing that like calorie counting which obviously work for some but not for everyone.
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PaulChasinDreams wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Lol yup exactly. It's laughable really. They have nothing else to say but that. Starting to wonder how many of these trolls are paid by big pharma, and the fake food industry lol. Seems pretty obvious to me they can't all be that naive and uninformed. Just have to hope people have minds of their own and do their own research cause some of the info going on here on this thread is scary horrible. Keep on plugging away on those diets people thinking you can eat any calorie you want...we'll see you later looking for help with your high blood sugar, diabetes, organ damage and high cholesterol lol. Way to go!!
Post some science instead of just bloviating/evangelizing.14 -
PaulChasinDreams wrote: »nellypurcelly wrote: »PaulChasinDreams wrote: »
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter how many doctors, scientists, trainers, nutritionists, etc. that you cite. They are all the wrong ones... especially if they've heard of the second law of thermodynamics.
Lol yup exactly. It's laughable really. They have nothing else to say but that. Starting to wonder how many of these trolls are paid by big pharma, and the fake food industry lol. Seems pretty obvious to me they can't all be that naive and uninformed. Just have to hope people have minds of their own and do their own research cause some of the info going on here on this thread is scary horrible. Keep on plugging away on those diets people thinking you can eat any calorie you want...we'll see you later looking for help with your high blood sugar, diabetes, organ damage and high cholesterol lol. Way to go!!
Okay I will bite...can you quote the thing someone said within this thread that was "scary horrible"? Just asking because I haven't seen anyone on here post anything "horrible" at all, i just see some people disagreeing on what some terms mean which is about as bland as one can get. Honestly if this thread suffers from anything it is that is is kind of boring given it has just become an argument over what a word means rather than anything related to anything actually meaningful.13
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