Of refeeds and diet breaks

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  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    heybales wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    I actually do a stir fry of sweet potato with some ground bison, onions, garlic, seasoning, and throw in spinach at the last minute to cook them down in a non-stick pan.

    Almost had me going there until last item, actually, mouth is still watering. And I'm guessing that's not some small sprig like amount for the color.
    ;-)

    Lol. It's about 3 oz, which cooks down (read: wilts) to about 3 tbsp. I actually do add it to provide *some* color so that my plate isn't entirely orange and brown, and to round out any micronutrients that may be lacking. I also don't cook it down to a soggy pile of sadness, just enough for it to stir into everything else and soak up the flavors.
  • alteredsteve175
    alteredsteve175 Posts: 2,718 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Though, for a more reasonable diet that includes potatoes, you actually could roast them with a bit of olive oil, S&P, chives, or whatever herbs you like, have them with some protein source and it's actually very a pleasing meal that hits all 3 macros without feeling like you broke the calorie bank.

    A second for that idea. It's always grilling season at Casa Steve. Potatoes cut in wedges - tossed with a bit of olive oil and your favorite spice mixture - place them in a wire basket. Cook them alongside some protein on the grill. Had cedar plank salmon and potato wedges last time. Easy nutritious meal.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    Potato au gratin and vegetarian shepherd's pie (beans in the filling, potto on top) were a couple of my go to evening meals for refeeds. It did mean saving at least half of my fat cals for dinner, but my other meals were low enough fat for that to work. Of course the thread regulars probably remember the somewhat insane serving sizes and that I usually had to take a couple of goes at getting through it all :D
  • anubis609
    anubis609 Posts: 3,966 Member
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    Russellb97 wrote: »
    anubis609 wrote: »
    Russellb97 wrote: »
    I have but I've been doing this since 2003. I lost 100lbs in 11 months and another 35 lbs over the past several years, without much effort. When I told people about this in 2003, I was a crazy madman because there wasn't any research. Back then the only term was "starvation mode" and that made people angry. Today, metabolic adaptation and adaptive thermogenesis are both scientifically accepted.
    It has everything to do with energy homeostasis and I do NOT believe in a set-weight theory. Weight is just a consequence of energy balance and it gets stuck because of that. Also, I think glycogen storage is an important factor in all of this, which is why carb refeeds are a must.

    I am thrilled to see this post still going strong!

    Congrats...

    Speaking of homeostasis, if the brain is going to slow metabolism without ample carbs, but adaptive thermogenesis are scientifically accepted, which one takes precedence in a running deficit, or famine? By what mechanism do carbs and glycogen offset imbalanced homeostasis? Is there another theory other than set-weight theory that dieters can look to for long-term success? What does the overweight population need to do differently in order to get their homeostatic conditions met to be lean? Are you still considered a crazy madman now that 15 years have passed since you told people?

    Your posts are enlightening. Help some of the people who may be struggling or new to this.

    These are amazing questions, I will get to them all tonight but I gotta fly. I don't have any research evidence that glycogen is the key but studies on overfeeding and leptin show that high fat doesn't give the same benefit as high-carb after calorie restriction.

    Mind you, this is a correlation, just theory, and personal experience;
    Calorie restriction whether high-carb or low-carb, will deplete glycogen at some point.
    Calorie restriction after several days drops leptin and begins the MA process

    Short-Term Overfeeding on fat doesn't restore glycogen and research shows it doesn't boost leptin either
    High-Carb does boost leptin and glycogen

    Also, it can take several days of caloric restriction to deplete glycogen but it can definitely be fully restored within 24 hours of 500-1000 carbs intake.

    I'll get to the other questions asap.
    Thank you :)

    I appreciate the answers. It seems that caloric restriction causes a lot of negative effects.

    If so, what benefits would dieters gain from wanting to put themselves through that? If the set-weight theory is bunk, but being in a calorie deficit does cause weight loss, wouldn't putting them back on a higher carb day of ~2000-4000kcal be putting them in that set-weight category if the weekly average resulted in no deficit, or even a surplus? At what point would they burn fat if they super compensated carbs and were trying to avoid glycogen depletion?

    On the other hand, if they did follow your suggested strategy of having a 6-day calorie deficit + 1-day carb refeed and their total weekly average resulted in a net calorie deficit, wouldn't metabolic adaptation still occur by definition of being in an overall deficit?
  • Russellb97
    Russellb97 Posts: 1,057 Member
    edited May 2018
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    "On the other hand, if they did follow your suggested strategy of having a 6-day calorie deficit + 1-day carb refeed and their total weekly average resulted in a net calorie deficit, wouldn't metabolic adaptation still occur by definition of being in an overall deficit?"

    Overall yes it's a caloric deficit. But, this is the answer to the weight loss paradox, which is; we need a caloric deficit to lose weight but a deficit will cause metabolic adaptation which hinders the loss of weight.
    Or, WL = CalsIN vs CalsOUT but CalsIN directly affects CalsOUT

    6-days of a deficit and 1-day of a surplus gives an overall deficit in 7 days but it breaks the pattern of 24-caloric deficits that has been proven to drop leptin. Conversely, studies on overfeeding in 12 and 24 hrs have shown to push leptin levels to and above baseline. That means you can stop MA before it ever happens. This is one key to my unique level of success.
    I believe It's either following glycogen storage or it's like an ON/OFF Switch that is tracking 24-hour levels of anabolic and catabolic hormones, specifically insulin and glucagon. Since these 2 hormones are Ying/Yang, both coming from the pancreas but cannot exist simultaneously there could easily be some sort of way our body tracks it. I also believe in the 24-body clock and sleep resetting and taking inventory of these hormone imbalances to keep us in homeostasis.

  • Russellb97
    Russellb97 Posts: 1,057 Member
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    anubis609 wrote: »
    Interesting.

    If CI directly affects CO, then that would mean the less we eat, the less we burn, is what I'm understanding from that.. right? Does that still apply to people who struggle with eating disorders, like anorexia? Many of them seem to have achieved very low weight and seemingly eat very low calories consistently. Why wouldn't MA kick in and stop them from losing weight?

    With glucagon and insulin, I wasn't aware that they couldn't exist simultaneously. There are people that talk about insulin resistance saying that they have high levels of insulin present, does that mean glucagon wouldn't be present due to the high insulin they already have? And regarding carb intake, would you still suggest high carb days for those people? What if they were type 2 diabetic and/or on insulin therapy? They technically already have metabolic problems and are not in homeostasis, would they be able to lose weight successfully? Meaning if they couldn't handle many carbs, then their glycogen stores would always be depleted and they would hit MA, which would hinder their weight loss, right?

    I'm a very curious person.

    Yes, this is why when we become IR and leptin resistant losing weight becomes a nightmare. However, I personally believe I've been there and came back from that place without medical intervention.

    Our bodies can make glucose without carbohydrates but it will struggle to do that while in a caloric deficit.

    Anorexics would be dead quickly without MA. MA can't stop WL completely but it makes it difficult. You can always eat less and move more to continue weight-loss, but why? How can that be maintained?
  • MelodiousMermaid
    MelodiousMermaid Posts: 380 Member
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    Thank you to @Nony_Mouse , @GottaBurnEmAll , and @anubis609 for the prep suggestions. That sweet potato stir fry sounds amazing. Might give the lower fat au gratin a try too! Is there a recipe post for the altered au gratin somewhere?
  • GottaBurnEmAll
    GottaBurnEmAll Posts: 7,722 Member
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    MelodiousMermaid wrote: »
    Thank you to @Nony_Mouse , @GottaBurnEmAll , and @anubis609 for the prep suggestions. That sweet potato stir fry sounds amazing. Might give the lower fat au gratin a try too! Is there a recipe post for the altered au gratin somewhere?

    I'm heading to bed now, but I'll send it to you in the morning.
  • Nony_Mouse
    Nony_Mouse Posts: 5,646 Member
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    MelodiousMermaid wrote: »
    Thank you to @Nony_Mouse , @GottaBurnEmAll , and @anubis609 for the prep suggestions. That sweet potato stir fry sounds amazing. Might give the lower fat au gratin a try too! Is there a recipe post for the altered au gratin somewhere?

    Did I post my recipe at some point? I use cottage cheese in the sauce, with a bit of hard cheese for flavour. I think @GottaBurnEmAll subbed a low fat cheese from memory. You can also skip the butter in the roux for the sauce.

    This is my original recipe:

    793 g, Potatoes, White, Flesh and Skin, Raw
    400 ml, Calci-trim Milk (Actual)
    100 g, Tasty Cheese
    20 g, Fielder's Cornflour
    200 g, Cottage Cheese Traditional
    144 gr, Onion Raw
    20 g, Butter Nz
    5 g, Hot English Mustard Powder
    15 g, Original Hot English Mustard (prepared)
    Salt and pepper

    Randomness of order of how I entered it in the recipe builder...

    Basically, in a large pot, make a white sauce with the butter, dry ingredients and milk, add cottage cheese (requires several minutes stirring to melt and not just be a big glob) and hard cheese (you could skip or reduce that to get fat down), and prepared mustard to taste.

    Add finely sliced potato and onion to cheese sauce and stir. Pour into lightly greased shallow ovenproof dish. Cover with foil and bake at 350 F for 1 hour. Remove foil and bake a further 20-30 minutes.

    Obviously, this is enough food to feed an entire island nation (well, four pretty damn decent servings if you're not a crazy person doing a refeed)


    Nutrition Facts
    Servings 2.0
    Amount Per Serving
    kilojoules 3549/cals 845 :o
    % Daily Value *
    Total Fat 33 g 51 %
    Saturated Fat 14 g 71 %
    Sodium 810 mg 34 % (lies, I didn't measure my salt or put it in the recipe builder)
    Potassium 1719 mg 49 %
    Total Carbohydrate 98 g 33 %
    Dietary Fiber 10 g 39 %
    Sugars 20 g
    Protein 46 g 93 %
    Vitamin A 0 %
    Vitamin C 131 %
    Calcium 93 %
    Iron 12 %

    * just checked and I halved the butter for subsequent batches, but again, you can skip it entirely.
  • bmeadows380
    bmeadows380 Posts: 2,981 Member
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    I have a question on water weight gain after exercise, namely how much is expected reasonably?

    I'm not normally very active. I have a desk job and spend most of my day behind a computer, by the time I get home I'm exhausted despite sitting all day, and with making dinner and getting house chores done, I struggle to get any regular activity going at all. Depression is not helping on that front.

    But I do have some days, usually weekends, where I get more active, especially as spring is here. For example: last week, I was very active, pushing the lawn and my parents' camp, digging post holes, planting shrubs, weedeating - a lot of physical exertion. I had the previous week weighed in at 265 lbs, but after spending 3 days doing a lot of outside work, I weighed in at 270 lbs. I know it was a lot of water weight as I felt bloated and my hands were swelled, but it was very frustrating to see that gain!

    This week, however, has been rainy all week, and my church has had revival services so I haven't had time to do any activity and have been very sedentary all week. And, as the week progressed, I watched the water weight slowly drop until I hit 266 lbs today.

    I understand that when you are active, your muscles need to repair themselves, so this is where some of the water weight comes into play, but can that really be as much as 4 lbs? And why does it seem to take so long to lose that excess weight? Is that something that happens even for normally active people, or if you are active, does your body adapt at some point to the constant use?
  • SpanishFusion
    SpanishFusion Posts: 261 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    I have a question on water weight gain after exercise, namely how much is expected reasonably?

    I'm not normally very active. I have a desk job and spend most of my day behind a computer, by the time I get home I'm exhausted despite sitting all day, and with making dinner and getting house chores done, I struggle to get any regular activity going at all. Depression is not helping on that front.

    But I do have some days, usually weekends, where I get more active, especially as spring is here. For example: last week, I was very active, pushing the lawn and my parents' camp, digging post holes, planting shrubs, weedeating - a lot of physical exertion. I had the previous week weighed in at 265 lbs, but after spending 3 days doing a lot of outside work, I weighed in at 270 lbs. I know it was a lot of water weight as I felt bloated and my hands were swelled, but it was very frustrating to see that gain!

    This week, however, has been rainy all week, and my church has had revival services so I haven't had time to do any activity and have been very sedentary all week. And, as the week progressed, I watched the water weight slowly drop until I hit 266 lbs today.

    I understand that when you are active, your muscles need to repair themselves, so this is where some of the water weight comes into play, but can that really be as much as 4 lbs? And why does it seem to take so long to lose that excess weight? Is that something that happens even for normally active people, or if you are active, does your body adapt at some point to the constant use?

    This is a great question that I've been wondering as well.
  • collectingblues
    collectingblues Posts: 2,541 Member
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    bmeadows380 wrote: »
    I have a question on water weight gain after exercise, namely how much is expected reasonably?

    I'm not normally very active. I have a desk job and spend most of my day behind a computer, by the time I get home I'm exhausted despite sitting all day, and with making dinner and getting house chores done, I struggle to get any regular activity going at all. Depression is not helping on that front.

    But I do have some days, usually weekends, where I get more active, especially as spring is here. For example: last week, I was very active, pushing the lawn and my parents' camp, digging post holes, planting shrubs, weedeating - a lot of physical exertion. I had the previous week weighed in at 265 lbs, but after spending 3 days doing a lot of outside work, I weighed in at 270 lbs. I know it was a lot of water weight as I felt bloated and my hands were swelled, but it was very frustrating to see that gain!

    This week, however, has been rainy all week, and my church has had revival services so I haven't had time to do any activity and have been very sedentary all week. And, as the week progressed, I watched the water weight slowly drop until I hit 266 lbs today.

    I understand that when you are active, your muscles need to repair themselves, so this is where some of the water weight comes into play, but can that really be as much as 4 lbs? And why does it seem to take so long to lose that excess weight? Is that something that happens even for normally active people, or if you are active, does your body adapt at some point to the constant use?

    At your weight, 4 pounds doesn't surprise me at all. I know I've calculated out my swings to be in the ballpark of 3 percent -- sometimes it's 2.5, and sometimes it's 3.05. And, when other people post their stats, and talk about their water fluctuations, the math seems to be the same there.

    So to see less than 2 percent in you? Yup, that makes sense as a weight fluctuation.

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