DL vs squat

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Replies

  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,728 Member
    edited May 2018
    In response to the OP

    Part of it has to do with where the weight is, and part of it has to do with the inevitable consequences of that location on how the head/shoulders/hips line up and move.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,728 Member
    edited May 2018
    lorrpb wrote: »
    JerSchmare wrote: »
    They are completely different exercises. You are pulling weight off the floor in a deadlift. In a squat, you are pushing the weight up. Why is that hard to understand? Lol

    Because I’m probably stupid with body mechanics. In both exercises my knees are bent and I’m straightening my legs so the movements seem similar.

    No reason to feel bad about asking. If you do regular barbell back squats, vs barbell dead lifts from the floor the moves really are completely different because of the way the weight is loaded onto your body. But I'm guessing you lift with dumbells which is not so obvious from the observer standpoint. Because with DB's you do have to lean your body forward with a squat similar to a dead lift, in order to sit your butt back on the imaginary chair and also keeping your knees from coming way too far forward which is no good. You can seriously hurt your knees if you let them go forward past your toes. So contrary to what someone else said with a squat you do lean forward some or else you will hurt your knees. Which makes them look similar, but with Deads you focus on pulling from the bent over position, and with Squats you focus on pushing up from the bottom of the knee bend.

    Mostly good, but the bolded is nonsense. Keep your knees above your toes(imaginary train tracks) and it doesn't matter how far forward they do or don't go.

    Not with DB squats.

    Even with DB squats.

    A squat is a squat. BW, DB, KB, Barbell.

    Every guide every guide every where says keep your knees behind or at your toes. There's a reason.
    http://www.stack.com/a/dumbbell-squat
    https://www.bodybuilding.com/exercises/dumbbell-squat

    There are literally thousands of articles addressing that myth.

    From your source.

    http://www.stack.com/a/squat-with-knees-past-toes

    Saying its safe for people with long femurs to slip past the toes "a bit" is long way off from saying its ok to let your knees go forward as much as you want. In fact, he is saying the exact opposite as he should. There's no myth and nothing's been debunked.

    LOL. Pay attention to the important parts of the lift and let the unimportant ones do what they will do.

    Important
    Head/neck alignment
    Back/hip alignment
    knee tracking between toes

    unimportant
    Knees past toes
    foot angle

    IN other words, if your knees go past your toes, but your weight is mid foot or heel. NBD.

    If you stand feet straight ahead or pigeon toed, as long as your knees stay square with your toes, and your weight stays mid foot or behind. NBD.

    Don't sweat the small stuff.
  • RMaxwell90
    RMaxwell90 Posts: 36 Member
    Article that goes into some details about this topic, with sources at the end.

    https://squatuniversity.com/2016/01/29/can-the-knees-go-over-the-toes-debunking-squat-myths/

    From the article:

    "While shear forces have been shown to increase in the deep squat position with forward knees, the body can handle them appropriately without risk for injury (2). If done properly with a “hip first” approach, the knees going past the toes is not only safe but necessary."

    I also have seen data showing a lower incidence of knee injuries among Olympic weightlifters compared to athletes of other sports (soccer, American football etc...). One would expect the opposite to be true if they were at high risk of knee injury. I'll try and find those studies too...
  • TR0berts
    TR0berts Posts: 7,739 Member
    It's because the deadlift is mis-called a "pull." This is because it tends to incorporate more posterior chain (hamstring, glutes, spinal erectors...) than squats. Note that I said "tends" - some people (especially dependent upon squat/dl styles) will get similar activation from those muscle groups. In addition, that the bar (or KBs, dbs, whatever) is hanging down, it seems like a pulling motion, when it's really not.
  • QuikDogs
    QuikDogs Posts: 194 Member
    I wouldn't worry about the semantics too much. Just do them both. And do arm-something too, if not bench press then something. You'll do fine.

    (75kg squat - 45kg bench - 125kg deadlift | USAPL | RAW Masters 3a)
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
    edited May 2018
    see next
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
    edited May 2018
    RMaxwell90 wrote: »
    The movements are distincly different, but classifying any movement as a "push" or a "pull" is largely just semantics. Muscles can only stretch and contract. You can't push with a rope.

    Coloqually, "pulling" movements are more posterior chain or back focused (deadlifts, rows etc..) and "pushing" movements are more anterior chain focused (high bar/front squats, bench pressing etc...).

    I believe that the distinction is drawn more to facilitate a training split rather than being grounded in anatomical/kinesthetic differences.

    This is mostly just an FYI and my view on it. Train both regularly and increase the load/volume over time and you'll do just fine

    OK, I was just asking because an article said that a balanced workout was upper & lower with push and pull for each. The only pull exercises for lower body were DL and glute bridge/hip thruster. Just trying to understand what is meant because I often see these terms used on here. The upper body is a little more intuitive.

    PS I do both DL and squats every weight training day, which is usually 3x week. These are the exercises that will help keep most people out of a nursing home!
  • RMaxwell90
    RMaxwell90 Posts: 36 Member
    OK, I was just asking because an article said that a balanced workout was upper & lower with push and pull for each. The only pull exercises for lower body were DL and glute bridge/hip thruster. Just trying to understand what is meant because I often see these terms used on here. The upper body is a little more intuitive.

    For a push/pull lower body I would understand that as including a squat type movement and a hip hinge type movement.
    Examples: (push / pull)
    Back squat / RDL
    Bulgarian split squat / sumo DL
    Front Squat / stiff leg DL

    Other lower pulling movements could be hip thrusts, kettlebell swings, good mornings, and all the variations of each. There are dozens of deadlift variations out there.

    I do like the structure of that particular full body split. It sounds like it would be upper push, lower push, upper pull, lower pull or something like that?

    Generally the biggest difference is that squats (push) require some forward knee travel (the amount depends on the movement). Maybe think of it as a squat/hinge split for lower body?

    Hope some of my rambling makes sense haha
  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,464 Member
    Thank you!
  • sgt1372
    sgt1372 Posts: 3,971 Member
    lorrpb wrote: »
    PS I do both DL and squats every weight training day, which is usually 3x week.

    This shouldn't be a problem if you are not using max wts but, as mentioned by someone else above, you are using many of the same muscle groups when doing DLs & SQTs.

    The only part of a DL which can be considered a "pull" is the very last part of the lift after you have raised the bar to mid-thigh mainly using your hips/glutes and then straighten up using your lower back which is a very small part of the lift.

    So, if you are using max effort doing both DLs and SQTs, it would probably be better to do them on different days, (or at different times in the same day) to allow sufficient rest between them.
  • mutantspicy
    mutantspicy Posts: 624 Member
    edited May 2018
    lorrpb wrote: »
    RMaxwell90 wrote: »
    The movements are distincly different, but classifying any movement as a "push" or a "pull" is largely just semantics. Muscles can only stretch and contract. You can't push with a rope.

    Coloqually, "pulling" movements are more posterior chain or back focused (deadlifts, rows etc..) and "pushing" movements are more anterior chain focused (high bar/front squats, bench pressing etc...).

    I believe that the distinction is drawn more to facilitate a training split rather than being grounded in anatomical/kinesthetic differences.

    This is mostly just an FYI and my view on it. Train both regularly and increase the load/volume over time and you'll do just fine

    OK, I was just asking because an article said that a balanced workout was upper & lower with push and pull for each. The only pull exercises for lower body were DL and glute bridge/hip thruster. Just trying to understand what is meant because I often see these terms used on here. The upper body is a little more intuitive.

    PS I do both DL and squats every weight training day, which is usually 3x week. These are the exercises that will help keep most people out of a nursing home!

    I agree with Maxwell's post. I just wanted to add there is more than one type of "balanced" routine. What you are talking about sounds like an upper/lower split which is what I'm currently doing btw. However, you can also do PPL splits. Push day (upper), Pull day (upper), Leg day (maybex2) in these type of splits the Dead lift tends to get put on Pull day along with your pull ups and rows. Leg day is then able to focus on squat, but isn't specific to push or pull movements, you can add say RDL's and hip bridges and leg curls as an accessory. Helps to keep your squat and dead lift on separate days if you want to max out the big guys.

    PS leg curls and/or glute ham raises(hard AF) are another pull option for legs, if you have access to a machine.