Too much "pointless" exercise?
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oat_bran
Posts: 370 Member
To explain my situation I'm 29 yo female, 5'2'', currently around 134lbs. My goal is to lose 10 or 15 pounds. I use my fitbit to track my TDEE (I've been logging my intake and weight on a special spreadsheet for almost two months and it's estimates appear spot-on).
My average TDEE is 2400-2500, but there are days I burn much more. Part of it is due to having a high NEAT because of a pretty active job and being a student on top of that. But on any days that I am less active I compensate with intentional exercise: mainly running, swimming or biking. Sometimes just walking. So basically I have some form physical activity every single day and haven't gone below 2200 on my TDEE for 2 months. To compare, my sedentary TDEE is 1650.
To be honest, I don't necessarily do it for health or enjoyment. I think my main reason is too burn more calories to be able to eat more. I struggle a lot with hormonal hunger that comes in long streaks. I'm still trying to figure out the exact pattern but I'd say that around 10-14 days every month my hunger is elevated with a few days being very difficult. So I struggle to even eat at maintenance on these days, and that with the amount of exercise I do. So I exercise to be able to eat more on these days. And then on days where my hunger levels are "normal" I still exercise to make up for the previous overeating and hit my target monthly deficit. Which is only 8400 cals/month or 300 cals daily on average.
But here's the thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm just wasting time with all that cardio. I spend so much time burning these calories only to eat them back later. I actually often feel like I have other things to do but I go and exercise because I feel guilty if I don't. But I don't always enjoying. Actually I often feel like I have no strength to do it. My muscles feel tired and and weak, but I still push myself. Sometimes I wonder if I feel so weak is because I don't allow myself a day of rest. Or I wonder if I'd feel less hungry if I did less exercise ? But I reached a point where I feel guilty and anxious if I'm not active enough (meaning burn at least 2200 cals) every day and I worry that I just won't have enough calories to eat.
Any advice?
(before you ask me why I don't do weight training: a)I currently have no access to gym and can't exercise at home 2) as my post states, the goal of my exercise is to burn more calories to be able to eat more, and cardio is much more efficient at that c)I plan to start a weight lifting program in a couple of month when I gain gym access, but this is besides my point)
My average TDEE is 2400-2500, but there are days I burn much more. Part of it is due to having a high NEAT because of a pretty active job and being a student on top of that. But on any days that I am less active I compensate with intentional exercise: mainly running, swimming or biking. Sometimes just walking. So basically I have some form physical activity every single day and haven't gone below 2200 on my TDEE for 2 months. To compare, my sedentary TDEE is 1650.
To be honest, I don't necessarily do it for health or enjoyment. I think my main reason is too burn more calories to be able to eat more. I struggle a lot with hormonal hunger that comes in long streaks. I'm still trying to figure out the exact pattern but I'd say that around 10-14 days every month my hunger is elevated with a few days being very difficult. So I struggle to even eat at maintenance on these days, and that with the amount of exercise I do. So I exercise to be able to eat more on these days. And then on days where my hunger levels are "normal" I still exercise to make up for the previous overeating and hit my target monthly deficit. Which is only 8400 cals/month or 300 cals daily on average.
But here's the thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm just wasting time with all that cardio. I spend so much time burning these calories only to eat them back later. I actually often feel like I have other things to do but I go and exercise because I feel guilty if I don't. But I don't always enjoying. Actually I often feel like I have no strength to do it. My muscles feel tired and and weak, but I still push myself. Sometimes I wonder if I feel so weak is because I don't allow myself a day of rest. Or I wonder if I'd feel less hungry if I did less exercise ? But I reached a point where I feel guilty and anxious if I'm not active enough (meaning burn at least 2200 cals) every day and I worry that I just won't have enough calories to eat.
Any advice?
(before you ask me why I don't do weight training: a)I currently have no access to gym and can't exercise at home 2) as my post states, the goal of my exercise is to burn more calories to be able to eat more, and cardio is much more efficient at that c)I plan to start a weight lifting program in a couple of month when I gain gym access, but this is besides my point)
6
Replies
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It sounds as though the job you have keeps you fairly active without the exercise. Adding cardio on top of that is naturally good for your cardiovascular health, but just how much is really up to you.
As for the guilt thing, that can get complex.
But the hunger vs exercise thing, often not as complex. For me personally I can walk for hours, bike at lower intensities, or do other less strenuous exercises for long periods of time without much change in my hunger vs having done nothing physical. But at some point when the intensity ramps up enough, the "feed me now" hunger also ramps up. In your case being female you might find that some of the hunger streak is based on your cycle as well. But depending on eating patterns, workout times, etc it's not uncommon for some people to just have a day or two of being more hungry, usually due to under eating when active in previous days.
For me, I've found that at some point I'm a volume eater. If I go workout hard and eat a giant but fairly low cal salad, it satisfies me for quite a while. Proteins seem to satisfy me longer than fats or carbs, and for some reason the texture and "chew" of foods seems to make a difference as well. It seems like there is a lot of individuality in this area, so experiment and try to find foods that fill you better.
As for the rest days and feeling tired, rest days are important, as is sleep. If you are hitting monthly goals when the days above calorie goal and/or rest days aren't really slowing your progress. There is a great thread still around about diet breaks, and for some people small breaks can be huge. I went through a period where just eating at maintenance for a couple or three days left me feeling much more energized and happy, and at the time I wasn't cutting weight fast. It was simply the deficit + the workouts that were leaving me tired.
It's not uncommon for quite a few people to struggle more as they get closer to goals. That's when you often have to really start figuring things out. And for some that might mean slowing their rate of loss, changing exercise times or routines, or changing what or when they eat.5 -
It sounds like you're wrestling with finding good life balance, something most of us have to work out in early adulthood. (I'm old now - 62
- and still have to work on it sometimes). The definition of "balance" differs for everyone, but your discomfort with your routine and feelings about it are a sign that it's time for adjustments. Good for you for recognizing that!
Does school have a counseling service? Mine did. We could go and talk with someone for a few meetings, and those folks are super good about helping sort through options. Perhaps you have similar resources in your community, if not school.
If that's not an option, there are other things you can consider. Robert had some good advice above. Some other thoughts:
You might think about experimenting with the timing of your eating, the macro composition, or specific food choices so that you can find satiation on a bit fewer calories, thus can begin to add more rest time or some balancing non-exercise activities into your schedule.
You might find it helpful to keep a bit of a journal for a while, with some notes about what you're feeling, when and why, to gain some insights, such as whether there are other contributors to hunger or exercise motivation/guilt, maybe something like inadequate sleep or other life stressors. It could also help you identify the hormonal hunger patterns more precisely, and experiment in a structured way with alternative strategies and results.
Since you're not actively enjoying your exercise volume, and are experiencing twinges of exercise guilt (which is a bit worrisome), you're smart and insightful to recognize that it's time for a change. It sounds like you have a level head and good analytical skills, so you have the tools to find a better path. Don't be afraid, though, to draw on counseling resources, which can be just what needed to turn corner sometimes.
Best wishes!
7 -
And to add the link to the refeed/diet break thread....
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10604863/of-refeeds-and-diet-breaks/p1
With being short on energy and such this might be great information for the OP.2 -
Is it possible the extra exercise is being counter productive to your hunger issue? You get to eat more, but if it is creating a raging appetite that overwhelms the extra calories you burn, you haven't really helped yourself. Would you consider easing off a bit to see if you're less hungry (only because you say you aren't doing it for enjoyment or fitness)? It's a chicken and egg thing.6
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Get some rest at LEAST once a week.
Sounds to me like your overdoing it mate.
Your central nervous system will be stressed to the max without rest. This will elevate stress hormones. Especially cortisol. This will do several things you don't want. Like start using muscle as an energy source, slow down your metabolism and encourage fat storage.
Get rest!!! Can't stress that enough!
Have you looked into HIIT training rather than long cardio bouts also? Definitely worth looking into. Less overall impact on joints with very similar calorie expenditure.
Also how's your diet? If you eat lots of sweets sugars and carbs, you will always be craving sweets sugars and carbs. You will always be waaay more hungry more often. (Insulin spikes).
I found a lower carb diet with more frequent, smaller meals stopped my cravings completely, and in as little as 5 days.
In answer to the question of "pointless" cardio.... No it's not pointless as you would have definitely gained weight. You are just overdoing it in my opinion.
Oh and another thing... Poor sleep will leave you hungry as hell too... and leave your muscles sorer for longer.
As for the weight lifting.... Get into it as soon as you possibly can! This will change the entire game!
Hopefully this helps mate. I wish you all the best!
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robertw486 wrote: »It sounds as though the job you have keeps you fairly active without the exercise. Adding cardio on top of that is naturally good for your cardiovascular health, but just how much is really up to you.
As for the guilt thing, that can get complex.
But the hunger vs exercise thing, often not as complex. For me personally I can walk for hours, bike at lower intensities, or do other less strenuous exercises for long periods of time without much change in my hunger vs having done nothing physical. But at some point when the intensity ramps up enough, the "feed me now" hunger also ramps up. In your case being female you might find that some of the hunger streak is based on your cycle as well. But depending on eating patterns, workout times, etc it's not uncommon for some people to just have a day or two of being more hungry, usually due to under eating when active in previous days.
For me, I've found that at some point I'm a volume eater. If I go workout hard and eat a giant but fairly low cal salad, it satisfies me for quite a while. Proteins seem to satisfy me longer than fats or carbs, and for some reason the texture and "chew" of foods seems to make a difference as well. It seems like there is a lot of individuality in this area, so experiment and try to find foods that fill you better.
As for the rest days and feeling tired, rest days are important, as is sleep. If you are hitting monthly goals when the days above calorie goal and/or rest days aren't really slowing your progress. There is a great thread still around about diet breaks, and for some people small breaks can be huge. I went through a period where just eating at maintenance for a couple or three days left me feeling much more energized and happy, and at the time I wasn't cutting weight fast. It was simply the deficit + the workouts that were leaving me tired.
It's not uncommon for quite a few people to struggle more as they get closer to goals. That's when you often have to really start figuring things out. And for some that might mean slowing their rate of loss, changing exercise times or routines, or changing what or when they eat.It sounds like you're wrestling with finding good life balance, something most of us have to work out in early adulthood. (I'm old now - 62 - and still have to work on it sometimes). The definition of "balance" differs for everyone, but your discomfort with your routine and feelings about it are a sign that it's time for adjustments. Good for you for recognizing that!
Does school have a counseling service? Mine did. We could go and talk with someone for a few meetings, and those folks are super good about helping sort through options. Perhaps you have similar resources in your community, if not school.
If that's not an option, there are other things you can consider. Robert had some good advice above. Some other thoughts:
You might think about experimenting with the timing of your eating, the macro composition, or specific food choices so that you can find satiation on a bit fewer calories, thus can begin to add more rest time or some balancing non-exercise activities into your schedule.
You might find it helpful to keep a bit of a journal for a while, with some notes about what you're feeling, when and why, to gain some insights, such as whether there are other contributors to hunger or exercise motivation/guilt, maybe something like inadequate sleep or other life stressors. It could also help you identify the hormonal hunger patterns more precisely, and experiment in a structured way with alternative strategies and results.
Since you're not actively enjoying your exercise volume, and are experiencing twinges of exercise guilt (which is a bit worrisome), you're smart and insightful to recognize that it's time for a change. It sounds like you have a level head and good analytical skills, so you have the tools to find a better path. Don't be afraid, though, to draw on counseling resources, which can be just what needed to turn corner sometimes.
Best wishes!
Thank you so much for taking your time to give such substantial advice!
The hunger issue, I've been struggling with this for a very long time and have tried pretty much everything: experimenting with macros, volume, timing etc. I've found what works best for me but still on the many days, the hunger stays a big issue. It was actually only quite recently, after keeping track of the pattern that I realized that it's definitely hormonal, meaning related to my cycle. Though the pattern is much more complex than just having cravings one week before/during period as many people experience. Which is why it took me so long to realize it's due to hormones.So while I've learned that there are things that make things that definitely help, it stays an issue.
About the diet break, I actually had one for a few weeks that ended about 2 months ago. I plan to incorporate refeeds or diet breaks a bit later, but the hunger/cravings issue is always there pretty much irregardless of how much i eat, so that unfortunately doesn't solve the problem.
Having a history of eating disorder, I have to vigilant about me feelings on food and exercise and where it becomes unhealthy. But the line between healthy and unhealthy is not always easy to determine. It's sometimes that I will have to work on my entire life. I plan to go back to therapy soon and hopefully that'll give me more insight.
Thanks again for the support and advice! I really appreciate it!6 -
Is it possible the extra exercise is being counter productive to your hunger issue? You get to eat more, but if it is creating a raging appetite that overwhelms the extra calories you burn, you haven't really helped yourself. Would you consider easing off a bit to see if you're less hungry (only because you say you aren't doing it for enjoyment or fitness)? It's a chicken and egg thing.
Yup, that's what I've been thinking. I suspect that an issue is also part due to me being used to eat about the same amount everyday which corresponds to a high activity level. So I feel hungry if I eat less, but to eat more I exercise. Which probably makes me hungry to keep up eating the same amount. It's a chicken and egg thing like you said. I just need to learn to be ok with having a lower TDEEs on some days and plan to eat less on them and be ready to be hungrier on them i guess and hope that eventually it'll adjust to my lower activity levels.0 -
Metalman224 wrote: »Get some rest at LEAST once a week.
Sounds to me like your overdoing it mate.
Your central nervous system will be stressed to the max without rest. This will elevate stress hormones. Especially cortisol. This will do several things you don't want. Like start using muscle as an energy source, slow down your metabolism and encourage fat storage.
Get rest!!! Can't stress that enough!
Have you looked into HIIT training rather than long cardio bouts also? Definitely worth looking into. Less overall impact on joints with very similar calorie expenditure.
Also how's your diet? If you eat lots of sweets sugars and carbs, you will always be craving sweets sugars and carbs. You will always be waaay more hungry more often. (Insulin spikes).
I found a lower carb diet with more frequent, smaller meals stopped my cravings completely, and in as little as 5 days.
In answer to the question of "pointless" cardio.... No it's not pointless as you would have definitely gained weight. You are just overdoing it in my opinion.
Oh and another thing... Poor sleep will leave you hungry as hell too... and leave your muscles sorer for longer.
As for the weight lifting.... Get into it as soon as you possibly can! This will change the entire game!
Hopefully this helps mate. I wish you all the best!
Thank you so much for the advice! I guess I really needed to hear someone else say it to me. Sorry if it's a silly question but what qualifies as a rest day? Do I have to be more or less sedentary or just avoid intentional exercise or any other strenuous activity? Can I still have a high NEAT due to walking a lot and climbing stairs on a rest day? Or is this trying to cheat and still have a high TDEE and call it a "rest" day?
I made my diary public for a while so you can look into it if you want. I don't eat a lot of sweets or processed foods, I'd say. On the contrary, I make sure to get enough of fat, protein, fiber, and mostly from whole foods. I tried the low carb diet several times for different periods of time and it didn't do a thing for me. Actually made things much worse in terms of satiety. I definitely need some starches in my diet to feel full.
I did weight lifting 2-3 times a week until a few months ago and to be honest, I don't remember it being a game changer. I pretty much head the same problem. And I felt even hungrier after the the strength training days, so..1 -
It sounds to me that you're focusing too much on your tdee and hitting a certain number. I've struggled with an ED and I have bit of an obsessive streak in me and I think you might be somewhat similar getting hyperfocused on something. It can cause an enormous amount of stress which is counter productive in and of itself and when you add the stress on your body from all the exercise, it's not a good combo.
To be honest, I think fitbits are not a good fit for everyone. They're great little devices, but people like me and possibly you, it can lead to obsessions. I'm not wearing mine anymore because I can't just use the information casually, I get too obsessive with it all. My goal is to listen to my body more. Eat when I'm truly hungry, take a break when I'm tired, etc. I'm not there yet but at least for me I think that is a much healthier approach. I guess being more mindful rather than hitting macros, steps, tdee and resting because I need it not because I've designated Sunday as my rest day. YMMV but I thought I'd share in case any of it applies to you too.2 -
i just had a quick look at your diary, and you have a significant number of calories left eat the end of every day. if your fitbit is accurate, why are you not eating back more of your exercise calories?
if you want to lose 10-15lbs a deficit of 250 cals is sufficient.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »i just had a quick look at your diary, and you have a significant number of calories left eat the end of every day. if your fitbit is accurate, why are you not eating back more of your exercise calories?
if you want to lose 10-15lbs a deficit of 250 cals is sufficient.
The adjustments are not correct. I haven't managed to make it work. MFP always tells me to eat more than the targeted deficit of 250-300 allows for. If you want to know my estimated deficit here's an expert from my CICO tracking spreadsheet. As you can see, my average deficit is around 300 calories (though last month was lower and I and I ended up way below my targeted monthly deficit due to overeating on my most hungry days).
0 -
It sounds to me that you're focusing too much on your tdee and hitting a certain number. I've struggled with an ED and I have bit of an obsessive streak in me and I think you might be somewhat similar getting hyperfocused on something. It can cause an enormous amount of stress which is counter productive in and of itself and when you add the stress on your body from all the exercise, it's not a good combo.
To be honest, I think fitbits are not a good fit for everyone. They're great little devices, but people like me and possibly you, it can lead to obsessions. I'm not wearing mine anymore because I can't just use the information casually, I get too obsessive with it all. My goal is to listen to my body more. Eat when I'm truly hungry, take a break when I'm tired, etc. I'm not there yet but at least for me I think that is a much healthier approach. I guess being more mindful rather than hitting macros, steps, tdee and resting because I need it not because I've designated Sunday as my rest day. YMMV but I thought I'd share in case any of it applies to you too.
Yeah, I am definitely am obsessive with my fitbit and the number it gives me. I know that. But at the same time, fitbit also helped me a lot with recovery in the past. When I started wearing it I realized just how many calories I am actually burning and I now I feel okay eating much more than the "recommended" amount for me. Like most women my size and age seem to be advised to eat 1400-1600cals, but I was starving on that and felt guilty because of it. Now I realize that my activity level isn't just "active" but "very active", so I know I need more food and that's fine. But the downside is that I know now what a difference can some activity make in terms of TDEE. If I do just some light housework, get groceries etc. I end up with only 1650-1750cals TDEE vs. 2500 on a normal day of work. So at this point, I am afraid that ditching the fitbit will lead me to feel constantly worried that I in fact am eating to much compared to how much I have burned. Another thing I realized since I started wearing fitbit 3 years ago is that while I do feel hungrier with more activity I can't really trust my hunger to determine how much I should eat. Like I said, the streaks of hormonal hunger I experience for a third of every month are very powerful and make me feel almost insatiable. I may want to eat 3000 cals on a some days and still be hungry. If I allowed myself to eat according to my hunger levels, I'd gain a lot of weight incredibly fast. Which I actually did the last time I attempted to eat when I was hungry. So now I'm trying to keep track of the pattern and try different things to make it easier to get though these days.2 -
1) Strength train
2) Cardio is NOT more efficient at burning fat
3) Stop wasting time with so much cardio
4) Strong girls are attractive
5) Do squats
6) Carbs make you hungry. Cut carbs
7) Lifting weights is fun and takes hardly any time
8) Running is mind-numbingly boring i don't care what anyone says
9) Do yoga15 -
1) Strength train
2) Cardio is NOT more efficient at burning fat
3) Stop wasting time with so much cardio
4) Strong girls are attractive
5) Do squats
6) Carbs make you hungry. Cut carbs
7) Lifting weights is fun and takes hardly any time
8) Running is mind-numbingly boring i don't care what anyone says
9) Do yoga
Thanks for the "tips", I guess... but most of them have very little to do with my post
1) please go read the end of my first post
2) I said cardio is more efficient at burning calories which is true; also saying straight training is more efficient at burning fat is an oversimplification. Calorie deficit is the pretty much the only way to burn any significant amount of fat. Strength training is important to maintain lean body mass while losing fat, but no amount of strength training will burn any significant amount of fat if there's no caloric deficit.
4) I never said strong girls are not attractive? what does this has to do with my post?
5) uhm, thanks for the tip, I guess? but I didn't ask advice on a strength training program, nor can you give me such an advice without making a bunch of assumptions about my goals
6) please speak for yourself. This is not true for me. And for many other people. My hunger is much worse without a certain percentage of carbs in my diet.
7) Please speak for yourself. Also go read the end of my first post.
8). Again please speak for yourself. Even though I mentioned that I don't always enjoy the amount of exercise I do, I love running more than many other forms of activity, including if not especially weight lifting, but again this is besides the point of my post
9) umm, okay?10 -
1) Strength train
2) Cardio is NOT more efficient at burning fat
3) Stop wasting time with so much cardio
4) Strong girls are attractive
5) Do squats
6) Carbs make you hungry. Cut carbs
7) Lifting weights is fun and takes hardly any time
8) Running is mind-numbingly boring i don't care what anyone says
9) Do yoga
Thanks for the "tips", I guess... but most of them have very little to do with my post
1) please go read the end of my first post
2) I said cardio is more efficient at burning calories which is true; also saying straight training is more efficient at burning fat is an oversimplification
4) I never said strong girls are not attractive? what does this has to do with my post?
5) uhm, thanks for the tip, I guess? but I didn't ask advice on a strength training program, nor can you give me such an advice without making a bunch of assumptions about my goals
6) please speak for yourself. This is not true for me. And for many other people. My hunger is much worse without a certain percentage of carbs in my diet.
7) Please speak for yourself. Also go read the end of my first post.
8). Again please speak for yourself. Even though I mentioned that I don't always enjoy the amount of exercise I do, I love running more than many other forms of activity, including if not especially weight lifting, but again this is besides the point of my post
9) umm, okay?
What is your goal with cardio? You say it's to burn calories. But why are you even eating more calories than you need to in the first place? If you really want to burn calories, strength training + having a better diet is the best way. Cardio is a great way to waste a lot of time.14 -
If you only exercise for the weight loss and don't care about the other benefits of exercise, then it's totally up to you. Do you think it's easier for you to resist the urge to eat or to put in the effort of exercise so you don't have to resist those urges?0
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Just to summarize...
- There are times when your hunger seems elevated.
- You exercise primarily so you can eat more.
- You eat more in response to your hunger.
Is that the gist?
Being hungry is fairly normal when dieting, but you don't have to give into it. I assume you know that, but wanted to put it out there just to be sure. Do you struggle with hunger, or do you struggle to control your eating?
From your original post, it sounds like the volume of exercise is bordering on detrimental. If it's simply a tool for "coping" with your hunger, I'd find better ways. Have you played around with different macro goals? Different food types? What about higher volume/lower calorie foods? Is your diet reasonably balanced (I'm not sure I buy into increased hunger/cravings when nutritionally deficient, but I also don't know enough to say that for certain, so it's worth asking)?1 -
OP,
There is a lot of good information in the replies to your post.
Also OP,
Ignore or block Mattyay. Trolls be trolling in many a thread.9 -
If you only exercise for the weight loss and don't care about the other benefits of exercise, then it's totally up to you. Do you think it's easier for you to resist the urge to eat or to put in the effort of exercise so you don't have to resist those urges?
I think it's easier to put in the effort to exercise than to resist the urges. Which is why I've been choosing to exercise instead of eating less all this time. But when I think about all the time I spend exercising... So yeah, it seems like a no win situation.Just to summarize...
- There are times when your hunger seems elevated.
- You exercise primarily so you can eat more.
- You eat more in response to your hunger.
Is that the gist?
Being hungry is fairly normal when dieting, but you don't have to give into it. I assume you know that, but wanted to put it out there just to be sure. Do you struggle with hunger, or do you struggle to control your eating?
From your original post, it sounds like the volume of exercise is bordering on detrimental. If it's simply a tool for "coping" with your hunger, I'd find better ways. Have you played around with different macro goals? Different food types? What about higher volume/lower calorie foods? Is your diet reasonably balanced (I'm not sure I buy into increased hunger/cravings when nutritionally deficient, but I also don't know enough to say that for certain, so it's worth asking)?
Yeah, you summarized it pretty accurately. I do realize it's totally normal to feel hungry when in caloric deficit. And I can easily deal with what I consider "normal" hunger levels. Like, I can b hungry, but it's not interfering with my life and it's just something I notice from time to time and in particular an hour or two before meals but it's not on my mind constantly. But when my hunger is elevated which I assume is mostly due to hormons, it seems almost impossible to not eat more without spending ALL of my energy and concentration into resisting the urges. On days that are particularly bad, about 8-10 days each month, I pretty much think about food all day long and it interferes with my ability to sleep, concentrate on my work and function normally in general etc. So eating more seems like the only solution...
As I clarified in one on my previous replies, I've been struggling with this hunger problems for a very long time and have tried pretty much everything: experimenting with macros, volume, timing, different types of foods etc. I've found what works best for me but still on the many days, the hunger stays a big issue.0
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