Too much "pointless" exercise?

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  • tcunbeliever
    tcunbeliever Posts: 8,219 Member
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    My thoughts:

    1 - if I don't enjoy an exercise then the odds of me being able to sustain it long-term are slim, so if it were me I would definitely cut back whatever exercises I'm tired of before the burnout stage hits, but that might not be as much of an issue for you.

    2 - you should have some kind of rest day where you are doing either lower intensity levels of cardio (walking or slower biking), or other non-cardio exercise like stretching or yoga or pilates. Your body would probably be less fatigued with some recovery time, and recovery is part of the process.

    3 - since you are already expressing frustration, you probably do need some kind of change to your current plan, don't feel like whatever you try is somehow set in stone. You can just try it for a few weeks and then try a different tweak if that is not working, or try an additional tweak if that is better but you are still frustrated.

    fyi...I average 2-3 hours of working out each day, but I mostly only do stuff I enjoy except weights, I do those for the healthy benefits, they are sooooooo boooooring.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
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    oat_bran wrote: »
    DX2JX2 wrote: »
    If you only exercise for the weight loss and don't care about the other benefits of exercise, then it's totally up to you. Do you think it's easier for you to resist the urge to eat or to put in the effort of exercise so you don't have to resist those urges?

    I think it's easier to put in the effort to exercise than to resist the urges. Which is why I've been choosing to exercise instead of eating less all this time. But when I think about all the time I spend exercising... So yeah, it seems like a no win situation.
    jjpptt2 wrote: »
    Just to summarize...

    - There are times when your hunger seems elevated.
    - You exercise primarily so you can eat more.
    - You eat more in response to your hunger.

    Is that the gist?

    Being hungry is fairly normal when dieting, but you don't have to give into it. I assume you know that, but wanted to put it out there just to be sure. Do you struggle with hunger, or do you struggle to control your eating?

    From your original post, it sounds like the volume of exercise is bordering on detrimental. If it's simply a tool for "coping" with your hunger, I'd find better ways. Have you played around with different macro goals? Different food types? What about higher volume/lower calorie foods? Is your diet reasonably balanced (I'm not sure I buy into increased hunger/cravings when nutritionally deficient, but I also don't know enough to say that for certain, so it's worth asking)?

    Yeah, you summarized it pretty accurately. I do realize it's totally normal to feel hungry when in caloric deficit. And I can easily deal with what I consider "normal" hunger levels. Like, I can b hungry, but it's not interfering with my life and it's just something I notice from time to time and in particular an hour or two before meals but it's not on my mind constantly. But when my hunger is elevated which I assume is mostly due to hormons, it seems almost impossible to not eat more without spending ALL of my energy and concentration into resisting the urges. On days that are particularly bad, about 8-10 days each month, I pretty much think about food all day long and it interferes with my ability to sleep, concentrate on my work and function normally in general etc. So eating more seems like the only solution...

    As I clarified in one on my previous replies, I've been struggling with this hunger problems for a very long time and have tried pretty much everything: experimenting with macros, volume, timing, different types of foods etc. I've found what works best for me but still on the many days, the hunger stays a big issue.

    Could you cut cals a bit on the moderate hunger days to give you a bit of padding for higher hunger days?
    What about caffeine as an appetite suppressant?
  • Metalman224
    Metalman224 Posts: 26 Member
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    Hey oatbran, rest day is just that... Rest.
    Literally like lying around relaxing. Mind body soul relaxing. Treat yourself to a movie, take the elevator and take a break from the stairs, run a bath with some lavender, meditate.... That kind of rest.
    Also I forgot to mention, maybe mix up your regime a little bit. If your body is used to running all the time, it becomes more efficient at that exercise and learns to conserve calories better because it knows what to expect. Keep it guessing by switching it up. Rowing skipping cycling etc. Tricking the body and not giving it what it expects will allow you to burn more calories during exercise and will boost your metabolism post exercise.
    Good luck matey :)
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
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    jjpptt2 wrote: »

    Could you cut cals a bit on the moderate hunger days to give you a bit of padding for higher hunger days?
    What about caffeine as an appetite suppressant?

    That's what I've been trying to do, but somehow I still can't hit the target deficit which is already small without a lot of exercise on top of that. But then again, maybe lowering the level of activity will result in lower hunger levels after a while. I guess I have to make myself have rest days and cut down a little on exercise and see.
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    edited August 2018
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    Metalman224 wrote: »
    Hey oatbran, rest day is just that... Rest.
    Literally like lying around relaxing. Mind body soul relaxing. Treat yourself to a movie, take the elevator and take a break from the stairs, run a bath with some lavender, meditate.... That kind of rest.
    Also I forgot to mention, maybe mix up your regime a little bit. If your body is used to running all the time, it becomes more efficient at that exercise and learns to conserve calories better because it knows what to expect. Keep it guessing by switching it up. Rowing skipping cycling etc. Tricking the body and not giving it what it expects will allow you to burn more calories during exercise and will boost your metabolism post exercise.
    Good luck matey :)

    Just out of interest, how does my body know whether I'm going to be running 3, 5 or 10 miles?
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    edited August 2018
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    Metalman224 wrote: »
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    Metalman224 wrote: »
    Hey oatbran, rest day is just that... Rest.
    Literally like lying around relaxing. Mind body soul relaxing. Treat yourself to a movie, take the elevator and take a break from the stairs, run a bath with some lavender, meditate.... That kind of rest.
    Also I forgot to mention, maybe mix up your regime a little bit. If your body is used to running all the time, it becomes more efficient at that exercise and learns to conserve calories better because it knows what to expect. Keep it guessing by switching it up. Rowing skipping cycling etc. Tricking the body and not giving it what it expects will allow you to burn more calories during exercise and will boost your metabolism post exercise.
    Good luck matey :)

    To the bolded: No.

    Perhaps someone very very well trained at an activity becomes a tiny bit more efficient at it because they waste less motion, but the effect is very very tiny if it exists at all. (For example, cardio-endurance athletes at the very highest levels need to eat massive numbers of calories of food during peak training. It doesn't sound like their bodies got all efficient at conserving calories . . . more likely efficient at utilizing them.)

    Cross training is a good thing - especially for someone with a general fitness goal - but this "confuse your body" idea is just blogosphere fiction.

    I don't know that they invented it, but the first time I heard it was from Beachbody . . . and it would be a handy myth if you were trying to sell more exercise programs and accessories, wouldn't it?

    It only takes a few cardio sessions to become fitter and improve your energy. After a few workouts, mitochondria in your cells will increase rapidly. Mitochondria are said to be the “power generators” of your cells, which turn oxygen and nutrients into adenosine triphosphate (ATP). And ATP is basically what powers the metabolic activities of your cells.

    So, your cells will have more mitochondria which will make your energy production more efficient. Physical activity will become easier from this point forward.

    Not trying to sell anything champ.
    Just read latest studies. Need a link to an actual study?

    I think the point is/was... how significant is that adaptation in terms of calories, difficulty, etc? I don't think anyone was arguing whether or not it happens, only whether or not it is meaningful/significant to the average MPFer.
  • Jthanmyfitnesspal
    Jthanmyfitnesspal Posts: 3,521 Member
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    You must be in great shape. I like to have payoff days: try a hike, a race (5ks are fun, I think), a charity ride, a vacation in the alps, or just a vacation where you do something completely different for a week. Everyone needs a change every once in a while.
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
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    Metalman224 wrote: »
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    Metalman224 wrote: »
    Hey oatbran, rest day is just that... Rest.
    Literally like lying around relaxing. Mind body soul relaxing. Treat yourself to a movie, take the elevator and take a break from the stairs, run a bath with some lavender, meditate.... That kind of rest.
    Also I forgot to mention, maybe mix up your regime a little bit. If your body is used to running all the time, it becomes more efficient at that exercise and learns to conserve calories better because it knows what to expect. Keep it guessing by switching it up. Rowing skipping cycling etc. Tricking the body and not giving it what it expects will allow you to burn more calories during exercise and will boost your metabolism post exercise.
    Good luck matey :)

    Just put of interest, how does my body know whether I'm going to be running 3, 5 or 10 miles?

    If u did one or the other wouldn't that be keeping the body guessing?
    https://reliawire.com/can-your-body-get-used-to-an-exercise/
    It's overly simple but does apply.

    I have no idea, you're the one on about keeping your body guessing...
  • Spliner1969
    Spliner1969 Posts: 3,233 Member
    edited August 2018
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    oat_bran wrote: »
    To explain my situation I'm 29 yo female, 5'2'', currently around 134lbs. My goal is to lose 10 or 15 pounds. I use my fitbit to track my TDEE (I've been logging my intake and weight on a special spreadsheet for almost two months and it's estimates appear spot-on).

    My average TDEE is 2400-2500, but there are days I burn much more. Part of it is due to having a high NEAT because of a pretty active job and being a student on top of that. But on any days that I am less active I compensate with intentional exercise: mainly running, swimming or biking. Sometimes just walking. So basically I have some form physical activity every single day and haven't gone below 2200 on my TDEE for 2 months. To compare, my sedentary TDEE is 1650.

    To be honest, I don't necessarily do it for health or enjoyment. I think my main reason is too burn more calories to be able to eat more. I struggle a lot with hormonal hunger that comes in long streaks. I'm still trying to figure out the exact pattern but I'd say that around 10-14 days every month my hunger is elevated with a few days being very difficult. So I struggle to even eat at maintenance on these days, and that with the amount of exercise I do. So I exercise to be able to eat more on these days. And then on days where my hunger levels are "normal" I still exercise to make up for the previous overeating and hit my target monthly deficit. Which is only 8400 cals/month or 300 cals daily on average.

    But here's the thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm just wasting time with all that cardio. I spend so much time burning these calories only to eat them back later. I actually often feel like I have other things to do but I go and exercise because I feel guilty if I don't. But I don't always enjoying. Actually I often feel like I have no strength to do it. My muscles feel tired and and weak, but I still push myself. Sometimes I wonder if I feel so weak is because I don't allow myself a day of rest. Or I wonder if I'd feel less hungry if I did less exercise ? But I reached a point where I feel guilty and anxious if I'm not active enough (meaning burn at least 2200 cals) every day and I worry that I just won't have enough calories to eat.

    Any advice?

    (before you ask me why I don't do weight training: a)I currently have no access to gym and can't exercise at home 2) as my post states, the goal of my exercise is to burn more calories to be able to eat more, and cardio is much more efficient at that c)I plan to start a weight lifting program in a couple of month when I gain gym access, but this is besides my point)

    While exercising yourself to death just so you can eat crap isn't what I advocate, finding the right balance for you is essential. The right amount of food for your needs and desires to fuel the right amount of exercise is a balance we all want to achieve. It just takes time. I started my journey working out 7 days a week, it ended with injuries about six months into that cycle. I learned to take a day off and stayed around 6 days a week until I hit my goal weight. I then shifted to 5 days a week for the first year of maintenance and now am sitting at 4 days a week which seems to be about right for me. Granted, I tend to work out up to 2 hours a day during those 4 days but I don't do it to get more time/calories in, I do it to accomplish what I want. I do a combination of body weight exercise, some free-weight lifting and walking and running. None of which required a gym membership, and the free weights I use I bought slowly over the period of 3 years along with a simple bench that inclines and declines for less than $100 on Amazon. Even without the free weights the first 1.5 years all I did was body weight training and walking and some light running. After that I started running more, added in free weights, and seem to have found a happy medium to both the exercise I want to do and the days per week. In general it gives me about 500 calories more 7 days a week than my usual no-exercise TDEE.

    I just turned 49, and expect sometime between now and retirement I'll probably drop down to 3 days a week of exercise but I'll adjust calories as I go to stay even with my weight and eat just enough to fuel the exercise I want to do. I've been accused of exercising just so I can eat more, but for me it's the other way around, I eat more so that I can perform well with exercise.

    Don't be afraid to adjust your days off. Use some other online calculators out there that help you to even out your calories rather than eating less on a rest day and more on an exercise day, it'll help you adjust a bit better week to week and keep you from wanting to exercise on days off just to afford a treat. Or just figure how many days a week you exercise, add up the calories you burn for the whole week, divide it by 7 and add it to your non-exercise TDEE. That way you get the same calories every day instead of fluctuating and feeling you need to exercise 7 days a week to keep the calories available.

    Food for thought (pun intended).
  • mkculs
    mkculs Posts: 316 Member
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    I haven’t read all the responses and won’t be offended if you ignore my post as irrelevant or uninformed, but I did see some discussion of your trouble with more-than-slight hunger. Given your history of an ED and the degree to which fighting the urges consumes you, i encourage you to get some counseling. Your perception of being almost uncontrollably hungry more than most people strikes me as not normal and is something you might need to explore with support. Good luck.
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
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    mkculs wrote: »
    I haven’t read all the responses and won’t be offended if you ignore my post as irrelevant or uninformed, but I did see some discussion of your trouble with more-than-slight hunger. Given your history of an ED and the degree to which fighting the urges consumes you, i encourage you to get some counseling. Your perception of being almost uncontrollably hungry more than most people strikes me as not normal and is something you might need to explore with support. Good luck.

    Thank you for your advice. Even though this hunger feels very physical, I've wondering how much of its intensity could be due to my perception of it which could of course be linked to my ED history. I currently have no access to counselling due to my insurance situation, but I'm planning to try it once it's sorted out, hopefully in a couple of months. In the meantime, I'm trying to gather as much "data" as possible by tracking my intake and daily deficit carefully, tracking the patterns of hunger and cravings, experimenting with different approaches to managing them etc.
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,389 Member
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    @oat_bran

    Good points (and well taken) on the ED possibly having impact.


    With so many responses, I lost track and am too lazy to find and quote it. But somewhere upthread you mentioned that you don't eat many sweets at all. Is this for goal adherence or is it because you don't like sweets? The reason I ask is simply the "hunger" vs "craving" question. I know for some people depriving themselves of whatever indulgent treats they like will simply make the cravings worse, and they often overeat other foods to try to compensate. Sometimes eating that cookie is all it takes and they can move on.

    It sounds overall like in your case it's more a long term hunger thing, but just thought I would toss it out there on a maybe.
  • DX2JX2
    DX2JX2 Posts: 1,921 Member
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    Metalman224 wrote: »
    It only takes a few cardio sessions to become fitter and improve your energy. After a few workouts, mitochondria in your cells will increase rapidly. Mitochondria are said to be the “power generators” of your cells, which turn oxygen and nutrients into adenosine triphosphate (ATP). And ATP is basically what powers the metabolic activities of your cells.

    So, your cells will have more mitochondria which will make your energy production more efficient. Physical activity will become easier from this point forward.

    Mitochondria don't 'amplify' energy as they get more efficient. There's no multiplier effect to be had. 100 calories will always translate into 100 calories worth of effort. And the effort required to perform a given activity is always static no matter how many times you've done it. Force always equals mass times acceleration.

    The only real impact of fitness on the effort required to perform a given movement will come from reduced mass due to weight loss.

    Think of it this way...mitochondria don't define the amount of work that can be performed for a given level of energy. Instead, they dictate how quickly you can release that energy (that is, more intense workouts, or heavier lifts, etc.).

    Body confusion has nothing to do with mitochondrial improvements. It's mostly bunk though you can make a case that it can help people to avoid inadvertently falling into ruts with their training (e.g., always running the same speed and same distance, or always using the same weights, same movements, and same number of reps/sets, etc.)
  • oat_bran
    oat_bran Posts: 370 Member
    edited August 2018
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    robertw486 wrote: »
    @oat_bran

    Good points (and well taken) on the ED possibly having impact.


    With so many responses, I lost track and am too lazy to find and quote it. But somewhere upthread you mentioned that you don't eat many sweets at all. Is this for goal adherence or is it because you don't like sweets? The reason I ask is simply the "hunger" vs "craving" question. I know for some people depriving themselves of whatever indulgent treats they like will simply make the cravings worse, and they often overeat other foods to try to compensate. Sometimes eating that cookie is all it takes and they can move on.

    It sounds overall like in your case it's more a long term hunger thing, but just thought I would toss it out there on a maybe.

    This is a good question. Both about me avoiding sweets and the "hunger" vs. "cravings" part. I *think* that I generally avoid sweets (and junk food in general) because I prefer whole foods. I genuinely enjoy healthy foods and I feel better eating them knowing that I'm nourishing my body. Junk foods feel like a waste of calories: not filling at all and having little nutrition. I also don't think that I often *crave* anything in particular, sweets or anything else. When I'm *hungry* sweets seem more tempting than usual, but any calorie-dense food sounds good in general. When I want a treat I usually opt either for a protein bar or for a fruit and nut bar or home made "healthy" treats. They are generally more filling and/or have more nutrition for the body.

    But sometimes I wonder if maybe I don't allow myself to realize I want sweets sometimes? and in the longterm it leads to me feeling deprived? Lately, I've been trying to incorporate more treats, including the processed kind in my diet for this reason. But I don't think that it made a difference in my hunger levels.

    And it is also possible that what I perceive to be hunger is actually cravings? Though what is the difference really? I've heard cravings are desire for particular foods/food groups and that they usually pass fast if you ignore them. Which is not what I experience. Some say that "hunger signals the real need to for nutrition, while cravings is just a desire to eat for pleasure", but I feel like this is a gross oversimplification. Hunger mechanisms in the body are very complex and are regulated by a slew of different hormones which can be effected by a slew of different factors so it is much more complicated than just "your body needing calories". So I don't think that the line between "hunger", "appetite" and "cravings" are so easily defined.

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