Intermittent fasting: sounds bad
Replies
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elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It can work for people in several ways:
- If it helps them manage their hunger better, they're more likely to stay within their calorie target
- If it allows them to have more of the foods that would be harder to fit otherwise, they're more likely to stay within their calorie target
- If they like large meals, eating within a window will allow them to have fewer but larger meals, so they're more likely to stay within their calorie target
- If they like several meals clustered closely, it's easier to achieve within a fasting window without having to settle for snack-sized meals, so they're more likely to stay within their calorie target
- If they dislike the act of preparing food, doing it once or twice a day is easier than having to think up and prepare 3-5 meals, so they're more likely to stay within their calorie target
That's how and why it works. People who believe it broke through a weight plateau for them are reading too much into it. They're either not counting calories and spontaneously reduce their calories when they fast, or they're counting calories but have food amnesia. Less time to eat means less opportunity to nibble and forget. They could also just be staying within their calories more consistently. There may even be less food in their system because they're eating richer meals, they may feel less stressed, they may be eating fewer carbs...etc. There could be other reasons, but they all boil down either to calories or to natural bodily functions that affect weight but mean little in terms of fat loss. Intermittent fasting doesn't affect fat loss in any way that any other diet wouldn't.9 -
Because calories are what matter, not what time you eat them.elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It helped me lose (and now maintain) because I'm not that hungry in the morning - I can easily get by with a cup of coffee until around noon - 1:00 pm most days. I'd prefer to have more calories in the evening, when I'm at my hungriest, for a nice big dinner and some ice cream for dessert. The only difference between losing weight and maintaining is that I eat a few hundred more calories in those same meals.
If I eat breakfast early in the morning, it turns on my hunger and I'm starving by lunch time, then after a big lunch I have less calories left for dinner and I'm hungry all night afterward. It doesn't work that way for everybody, but that's how it works for me. I do best when I eat "breakfast" around lunch time, have a small mid-afternoon snack, and a big dinner.
There's really nothing confusing about it - it's all about satiety and adherence. Some people are grazers, they do better with multiple small meals throughout the day; others do better with 3, 2, or even 1 big meal per day. Whatever works best to help one stick to their calorie goals is what offers the best chance of success. Trying to white knuckle your way through something that's a bad fit for you is rarely going to last.22 -
It helps me get my eating under control. It doesn't work for everyone (my wife couldn't adjust to it). I don't believe it has any special "magic" to make you lose weight faster but I don't believe it is bad for you either. Before we always had a plethora of food to choose from, our ancestors did not eat 3 meals a day everyday (or even more).
It just depends on works best for your body. And it works like general dieting, a less amount of time to eat leads to calorie restriction, nothing more complicated than that.6 -
Intermittent fasting can be 'bad' or 'good' depending on what you make of it! I use some of the Intermittent fasting strategies on weekends. 1200 calories can only go that far, and on the weekends, I like to indulge a bit more, have some bread and cheese and pizza. IF allows me to enjoy slightly bigger meals by skipping breakfast. Skipping breakfast has always been a "no-no" in my head until IF opened my eyes to a whole new way of thinking. I wasn't ruining my metabolism by skipping breakfast? Wow, how liberating.
Yeah, I don't do the full 5:2 or 18:6, but you can learn the good and throw away the bad from all kinds of fad diets and crazes. I tried 5:2 and it wasn't for me. I have small kids and there's no way I can have the energy to run after them on those fasting days. Didn't work for me and I was hangry and miserable.3 -
I've been told that your body doesn't start metabolizing in earnest in the morning until it's had something to jumpstart it. Is that nonsense, or is there some science to that?13
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gallicinvasion wrote: »I've been told that your body doesn't start metabolizing in earnest in the morning until it's had something to jumpstart it. Is that nonsense, or is there some science to that?
It is nonsense - your metabolism runs 24/7 regardless of when or what you eat.17 -
gallicinvasion wrote: »I've been told that your body doesn't start metabolizing in earnest in the morning until it's had something to jumpstart it. Is that nonsense, or is there some science to that?
There are some changes/fluctuations related to certain hormones... that part is true. But the impact that has on weight management is exceptionally small.5 -
gallicinvasion wrote: »I've been told that your body doesn't start metabolizing in earnest in the morning until it's had something to jumpstart it. Is that nonsense, or is there some science to that?
If you weren't metabolizing anything, you'd be dead. Now, you may feel like dying in the morning but In pretty sure you're actually alive.10 -
Fasting helped me lose weight and took my mind off of food actually- I only have to plan 2 meals...I don’t eat after 8pm and I wait to eat till after noon, I do drink a lot of water and have a cup of coffee in the morning also. The first couple days I was hungry in the morning so I ate at 10, but after I wasn’t hungry until noon! Try it out
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Because calories are what matter, not what time you eat them.elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It helped me lose (and now maintain) because I'm not that hungry in the morning - I can easily get by with a cup of coffee until around noon - 1:00 pm most days. I'd prefer to have more calories in the evening, when I'm at my hungriest, for a nice big dinner and some ice cream for dessert. The only difference between losing weight and maintaining is that I eat a few hundred more calories in those same meals.
If I eat breakfast early in the morning, it turns on my hunger and I'm starving by lunch time, then after a big lunch I have less calories left for dinner and I'm hungry all night afterward. It doesn't work that way for everybody, but that's how it works for me. I do best when I eat "breakfast" around lunch time, have a small mid-afternoon snack, and a big dinner.
There's really nothing confusing about it - it's all about satiety and adherence. Some people are grazers, they do better with multiple small meals throughout the day; others do better with 3, 2, or even 1 big meal per day. Whatever works best to help one stick to their calorie goals is what offers the best chance of success. Trying to white knuckle your way through something that's a bad fit for you is rarely going to last.
I skip breakfast but unlike others, I do get hungry thru the morning however I just push thru it. It is worse during the week when I am at work because I am just sitting at a desk but on the weekends way more easier because I am usually working out in the a.m.
IF has taught me that it is okay to feel hunger, I am not going to die from it. It has controlled my eating and even in the past 4.5 months the very odd day that I have blown it, I get right back on track. I honestly think I would not have lost 25 lbs in four months had I not implemented it. I tried everything before: eat small meals thru the day, eat less (which sounds great but you need a strategy for it), don't eat this or that, nothing sustained for me until IF.
I can adjust it as I see fit according to what the day will bring.7 -
Because calories are what matter, not what time you eat them.elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It helped me lose (and now maintain) because I'm not that hungry in the morning - I can easily get by with a cup of coffee until around noon - 1:00 pm most days. I'd prefer to have more calories in the evening, when I'm at my hungriest, for a nice big dinner and some ice cream for dessert. The only difference between losing weight and maintaining is that I eat a few hundred more calories in those same meals.
If I eat breakfast early in the morning, it turns on my hunger and I'm starving by lunch time, then after a big lunch I have less calories left for dinner and I'm hungry all night afterward. It doesn't work that way for everybody, but that's how it works for me. I do best when I eat "breakfast" around lunch time, have a small mid-afternoon snack, and a big dinner.
There's really nothing confusing about it - it's all about satiety and adherence. Some people are grazers, they do better with multiple small meals throughout the day; others do better with 3, 2, or even 1 big meal per day. Whatever works best to help one stick to their calorie goals is what offers the best chance of success. Trying to white knuckle your way through something that's a bad fit for you is rarely going to last.
I skip breakfast but unlike others, I do get hungry thru the morning however I just push thru it. It is worse during the week when I am at work because I am just sitting at a desk but on the weekends way more easier because I am usually working out in the a.m.
IF has taught me that it is okay to feel hunger, I am not going to die from it. It has controlled my eating and even in the past 4.5 months the very odd day that I have blown it, I get right back on track. I honestly think I would not have lost 25 lbs in four months had I not implemented it. I tried everything before: eat small meals thru the day, eat less (which sounds great but you need a strategy for it), don't eat this or that, nothing sustained for me until IF.
I can adjust it as I see fit according to what the day will bring.
What you are experiencing is likely not true hunger if on the weekends when your mind and body is otherwise occupied you are fine fasting. More than likely it's boredom or maybe even habit. Just offering a different perspective. I find that for myself getting up and walking around for a few minutes usually works.3 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »
Because calories are what matter, not what time you eat them.elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It helped me lose (and now maintain) because I'm not that hungry in the morning - I can easily get by with a cup of coffee until around noon - 1:00 pm most days. I'd prefer to have more calories in the evening, when I'm at my hungriest, for a nice big dinner and some ice cream for dessert. The only difference between losing weight and maintaining is that I eat a few hundred more calories in those same meals.
If I eat breakfast early in the morning, it turns on my hunger and I'm starving by lunch time, then after a big lunch I have less calories left for dinner and I'm hungry all night afterward. It doesn't work that way for everybody, but that's how it works for me. I do best when I eat "breakfast" around lunch time, have a small mid-afternoon snack, and a big dinner.
There's really nothing confusing about it - it's all about satiety and adherence. Some people are grazers, they do better with multiple small meals throughout the day; others do better with 3, 2, or even 1 big meal per day. Whatever works best to help one stick to their calorie goals is what offers the best chance of success. Trying to white knuckle your way through something that's a bad fit for you is rarely going to last.
I skip breakfast but unlike others, I do get hungry thru the morning however I just push thru it. It is worse during the week when I am at work because I am just sitting at a desk but on the weekends way more easier because I am usually working out in the a.m.
IF has taught me that it is okay to feel hunger, I am not going to die from it. It has controlled my eating and even in the past 4.5 months the very odd day that I have blown it, I get right back on track. I honestly think I would not have lost 25 lbs in four months had I not implemented it. I tried everything before: eat small meals thru the day, eat less (which sounds great but you need a strategy for it), don't eat this or that, nothing sustained for me until IF.
I can adjust it as I see fit according to what the day will bring.
What you are experiencing is likely not true hunger if on the weekends when your mind and body is otherwise occupied you are fine fasting. More than likely it's boredom or maybe even habit. Just offering a different perspective. I find that for myself getting up and walking around for a few minutes usually works.
^^^agree:)3 -
WholeFoods4Lyfe wrote: »
Because calories are what matter, not what time you eat them.elsie6hickman wrote: »I'm confused by it too. If you are eating breakfast and having a light lunch and then a substantial dinner and consume the same number of calories in a shorter period of time, why does it work? I'm sure it is more involved involved than that. Does it matter what foods you consume and is there a calorie target. I know a lot of people seem to believe it broke though a weight plateau for them.
It helped me lose (and now maintain) because I'm not that hungry in the morning - I can easily get by with a cup of coffee until around noon - 1:00 pm most days. I'd prefer to have more calories in the evening, when I'm at my hungriest, for a nice big dinner and some ice cream for dessert. The only difference between losing weight and maintaining is that I eat a few hundred more calories in those same meals.
If I eat breakfast early in the morning, it turns on my hunger and I'm starving by lunch time, then after a big lunch I have less calories left for dinner and I'm hungry all night afterward. It doesn't work that way for everybody, but that's how it works for me. I do best when I eat "breakfast" around lunch time, have a small mid-afternoon snack, and a big dinner.
There's really nothing confusing about it - it's all about satiety and adherence. Some people are grazers, they do better with multiple small meals throughout the day; others do better with 3, 2, or even 1 big meal per day. Whatever works best to help one stick to their calorie goals is what offers the best chance of success. Trying to white knuckle your way through something that's a bad fit for you is rarely going to last.
I skip breakfast but unlike others, I do get hungry thru the morning however I just push thru it. It is worse during the week when I am at work because I am just sitting at a desk but on the weekends way more easier because I am usually working out in the a.m.
IF has taught me that it is okay to feel hunger, I am not going to die from it. It has controlled my eating and even in the past 4.5 months the very odd day that I have blown it, I get right back on track. I honestly think I would not have lost 25 lbs in four months had I not implemented it. I tried everything before: eat small meals thru the day, eat less (which sounds great but you need a strategy for it), don't eat this or that, nothing sustained for me until IF.
I can adjust it as I see fit according to what the day will bring.
What you are experiencing is likely not true hunger if on the weekends when your mind and body is otherwise occupied you are fine fasting. More than likely it's boredom or maybe even habit. Just offering a different perspective. I find that for myself getting up and walking around for a few minutes usually works.
That may be true, but not necessarily. PP said they're usually working out in the morning on the weekend. It could be that the exercise suppresses their appetite. Cardio tends to suppress my appetite for a bit.5 -
^^ This - for me, a good solid workout is the best appetite suppressant that I have found.4
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Personally, I hated doing 16:8. I was always starving and felt like crap. I perform much better doing 3 large meals a day.2
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It really doesn't matter what time you eat; but if it helps you adhere to your daily calories then it's a great tool. I don't eat my first meal until 1pm and I would wager a guess I eat more than most women here. I cut easily on 1900 cals/day @ 145lbs so I'm not sure what sounds unhealthy about how someone else times their eating.2
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I naturally do this now that I listen to my body about when I'm actually hungry. I usually stop eating around 7 or 8 PM and then I eat lunch around 11 or 12 the next day. I'm not a breakfast person so i dont waste the calories on it, I just haven't joined the bandwagon to make a big deal about it.1
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This is very interesting. I just read today that there are a number of iterations of IF, some that involve fasting 24 hours, and then eating the next 8. My feeling is this - if you find what works for you and doesn't make you sick, then it is a good thing. We humans are so unique. I don't think it would work for me (although I do eat 3 meals, I don't snack much and I am always done with eating by 6pm.) but maybe I am doing some variation and it is working. The only time I feel hungry is when I have fish for both lunch and dinner.1
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gallicinvasion wrote: »I have been seeing more people talk about intermittent fasting as a weight lost tactic. This seems....unhealthy. Where have people gotten this idea recently?
I don't think so. I fast including overnight sleep time between 16 to 18 hours per day. I eat lots of fruit and veggies, calcium, fiber, protein, etc. during my eating time.
Unhealthy to me is when I weighed just about 40 lbs heavier and was on blood pressure meds.
I researched IF on my own and decided to try 14/10 which was suggested for women, instead of 16/8. I just started so can't really say if it is helping me jump start more consistent weight loss (my reason for trying it), but I can say I'm really hungry.
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gallicinvasion wrote: »I have been seeing more people talk about intermittent fasting as a weight lost tactic. This seems....unhealthy. Where have people gotten this idea recently?
I don't think so. I fast including overnight sleep time between 16 to 18 hours per day. I eat lots of fruit and veggies, calcium, fiber, protein, etc. during my eating time.
Unhealthy to me is when I weighed just about 40 lbs heavier and was on blood pressure meds.
I researched IF on my own and decided to try 14/10 which was suggested for women, instead of 16/8. I just started so can't really say if it is helping me jump start more consistent weight loss (my reason for trying it), but I can say I'm really hungry.
Sometimes that huge increase in insulin after eating fewer bigger meals can overshoot and lower blood sugar too much - making you feel hungry - though you really don't need more calories. Just a mental thing to get over while body released a little more glucose from liver.
One of the benefits of IF that has been found is improved response to that effect - so you likely will find it not being as bad as you continue.
Now - if those fewer bigger meals are totally carbs, or carbs first - that easily can make it worse too.5 -
research "autophagy fasting". intermittent fasting is the practice put into effect in part from the autophagy discoveries. Also research the 2016 Nobel prize in medicine which is the discovery of a dormant immune system that is activated by autophagy or intermittent fasting.
people look for a magic bullet in the form of a pill instead of taking action. here's a way to increase all kinds of health benefits but it takes work and personal responsibility.
the results have been repeatedly found to be accurate, and that's the basis for science fact, repeatability. so the challenge is to find a study(s) that would call into doubt the Nobel prize winning scientist whose been studying this for his entire career (30+ years) and then challenge the published results from everyone else whose found the same results, Harvard medical school
Seems pretty solid to me- still scared to try it though...17 -
hers a few scientific studies that mention autophagy/intermittent fasting and keto/atkins/paleo type low carb diet plans. copy and paste anyone of them into your browser and read up- become knowledgeable and responsible, have an open mind because if you already know it all, then you cant learn anything.
(I think if we all mice, we would already be cured of every disease...not a big fan of animal studies because I'm not convinced of the relationship of those disease and their cures being effective on humans...?)
1. Volek JS., et al. “Comparison of a Very Low-Carbohydrate and Low-Fat Diet on Fasting Lipids, LDL Subclasses, Insulin Resistance and Postprandial Lipemic Responses in Overweight Women.” J Am Coll Nutr. 2004 Apr.
2. Cappello G., et al. “Ketogenic Enteral Nutrition as a Treatment for Obesity: Short-Term and Long-Term Results From 19,000 Patients.” Nutr Metab (Lond). 2012 Oct 30.
26. Sgarbi G., et al. “Mitochondria hyperfusion and elevated autophagic activity are key mechanisms for cellular bioenergetics preservation in centenarians.” Aging. April 2014
Komatsu M., et al. “Impairment of starvation-induced and constitutive autophagy in Atg7-deficient mice.” The Journal of Cell Biology. May 9, 2005.
2. “The Nobel Assembly at Karolinska Institutet.” Nobelförsamlingen.
3. Longo V., et al. “Fasting: Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications.” Cell Metab. 2014 February
4. Ibid. 5. Su Z., et al. “Apoptosis, autophagy, necroptosis, and cancer metastasis.” Molecular Cancer. 2015.
5. Guo Z., et al. “Intermittent fasting and caloric restriction ameliorate age-related behavioral deficits in the triple-transgenic mouse model of Alzheimer’s disease.” Neurobiology of Disease. 2007.
6. Berliocchi L., et al. “Autophagy impairment in a mouse model of neuropathic pain.” Molecular Pain. 2011.
8. rne B., et al. “Usefulness of Routine Periodic Fasting to Lower Risk of Coronary Artery Disease among Patients Undergoing Coronary Angiography.” Am J Cardiol. 2008 October 1.
9. Lindqvist LM., et al. “Current questions and possible controversies in autophagy.” Cell Death Discovery. 2015. 10. Horne B., et al. “Usefulness of Routine Periodic Fasting to Lower Risk of Coronary Artery Disease among Patients Undergoing Coronary Angiography.” Am J Cardiol. 2008 October 1.
10. Aggarwal S., et al. “Differential regulation of autophagy and mitophagy in pulmonary diseases.” Am J Physiol Lung Cell Mol Physiol. July 8, 2016.
11. Johnson J., et al. “Alternate Day Calorie Restriction Improves Clinical Findings and Reduces Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Overweight Adults with Moderate Asthma.” Free Radic Biol Med. 2007 Mar 1.
12. Gorman C., et al. “Cellular Inflammation: The Secret Killer (Article). Health: The Fires Within.” Inflammation Research Foundation. 2018.
16. Johnson J., et al. “Alternate Day Calorie Restriction Improves Clinical Findings and Reduces Markers of Oxidative Stress and Inflammation in Overweight Adults with Moderate Asthma.” Free Radic Biol Med. 2007 Mar 1. 17. Wood L., et al. “Identification of neurotoxic cytokines by profiling Alzheimer’s disease tissues and neuron culture viability screening.” Scientific Reports. 13 November 2015.
18. Huberman M. “NHA president gets up close and personal at TrueNorth Health Center.” TrueNorth Health Center. January 14, 2017.
19. Rossner P., et al. “Plasma protein carbonyl levels and breast cancer risk.” J Cell. Mol. Med. 2007.
20. Napoli N. “Levels of Ceramides in the Blood Help Predict Cardiovascular Events.” American College of Cardiology. Press Release. Mar 09, 2017.
22. Lesica N. “Intermittent fasting could help tackle diabetes — here’s the science.” The Conversation. August 21, 2017.
23. Szendroedi J, Phielix E, Roden M. “The role of mitochondria in insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes mellitus.”Nature Reviews Endocrinology 8, 92-103. Feb 2012.
24. Kim J, Wei Y, Sowers JR. “Role of Mitochondrial Dysfunction in Insulin Resistance.” Circ Res. 2008 Feb 29; 102(4): 401–414.
25. Wegman M., et al. “Practicality of Intermittent Fasting in Humans and its Effect on Oxidative Stress and Genes Related to Aging and Metabolism.” Rejuvenation Research. 2014.
26. Katsuyasu Kouda, Masayuki Iki. “Beneficial effects of mild stress (hormetic effects): dietary restriction and health.” J Physiol Anthropol. 2010.
27. Newport M., et al. “A new way to produce hyperketonemia: use of ketone ester in a case of Alzheimer’s.” Alzheimers Dement. 2015 January.
28. Newport MT, VanItallie et al. “A new way to produce hyperketonemia: use of ketone ester in a case of Alzheimer’s.” Alzheimer’s & dementia : the journal of the Alzheimer’s Association. 2015.
29. “2017 Alzheimer’s Disease Facts and Figures.” Alzheimer’s Association.
30. Freake HC, Govoni KE, et al. “Actions and interactions of thyroid hormone and zinc status in growing rats.” J Nutr. 2001 Apr.
31. Cunnane S, Nugent S, et al. “Brain fuel metabolism, aging, and Alzheimer’s disease.” J Nutr. 2011 Jan.
32. He C, Sumpter R JR., et al. “Exercise induces autophagy in peripheral tissues and in the brain.” Autophagy. 2012 Oct.
33. Adapted from: von Ardenne M. “Oxygen Multistep Therapy,” Thieme, 1990, p144.15 -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/
If people want to understand the impacts of IF using human and animal trials, I recommend reading this 2016 meta-analysis.6 -
texasrigdiver wrote: »research "autophagy fasting". intermittent fasting is the practice put into effect in part from the autophagy discoveries. Also research the 2016 Nobel prize in medicine which is the discovery of a dormant immune system that is activated by autophagy or intermittent fasting.
people look for a magic bullet in the form of a pill instead of taking action. here's a way to increase all kinds of health benefits but it takes work and personal responsibility.
the results have been repeatedly found to be accurate, and that's the basis for science fact, repeatability. so the challenge is to find a study(s) that would call into doubt the Nobel prize winning scientist whose been studying this for his entire career (30+ years) and then challenge the published results from everyone else whose found the same results, Harvard medical school
Seems pretty solid to me- still scared to try it though...
I'm starting to read/hear more often (from regular everyday people, not scientists) about autophagy as the moving force behind miraculous effects of IF.
When I Google this, I get hits on alllll the standard pseudo-science web sites, and limited actual science (even from science-popularizer sites that tend to be sound sources). This doesn't exactly encourage belief, in my world. Some of the consumer-focused sites I've tended to find to be responsible about reporting have articles on the subject, but I went looking for them.
Google Scholar, as I'd expect, provides more pithy content. Some, but not all, is behind paywalls. Since I'm not a scientist, just an interested amateur, I'm not as effective in evaluating the actual evidence. It would appear, from casual inspection, that the initial research behind the Nobel was in yeast (yes, yeast), and there's been a fair bit of animal research (lotsa mice, no surprise) plus some in vitro cell/tissue stuff, including some in human cells. In vivo appears quite limited, from what I can find, and in the realm of "may enhance" "needs further study", etc.
It appears that one common thrust of research is investigation of pathological conditions in animals (including humans) that may in some way be connected to genetic abnormalities that down-regulate autophagy or interfere with it through some other mechanism. This, too, seems unsurprising, because IMU it's not unusual to use abnormal conditions and their effects to suggest hypotheses about implications for normal conditions.
But those patterns (animal research, in vitro, poking at pathologies) seems to characteristic of early research, but I'm not expert enough to say whether that's a fair observation or not.
While some of this is provocative, I'm not so far finding the "OMG miracle" evidence for results of routine fasting in humans who are simultaneously needing to maintain an energetic daily life. (I'm not finding counter-evidence either - just conceptual blank space, for me, so far.) There seem to be cases in which up-regulating autophagy might even be a bad thing - again, not definitive, but hints. (There are certainly medical conditions for which fasting is currently considered contraindicated.)
Because this is all very interesting, I plan to keep reading, with only my rather unhelpful scientific background and almost no biology background to guide me.
I'm not seeing any profound reason ATM to change my happy and convenient life to get "demonstrated positive results from IF due to autophagy".
Examine.com, which I've learned to largely trust for unbiased, science-based, nonscientist consumer-friendly content, seems still to be in pretty much the same place I came to, before reading their article: Interesting, worth watchin, nondefinitive at this point. (https://examine.com/nutrition/the-low-down-on-intermittent-fasting/)
Bottom line, I think the post I quoted seems like an over-sell.
Have any of the actual science folks here done any reading/research on this topic, and care to comment?
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4516560/
If people want to understand the impacts of IF using human and animal trials, I recommend reading this 2016 meta-analysis.
Thanks, Psu! :flowerforyou:0 -
texasrigdiver wrote: »research "autophagy fasting". intermittent fasting is the practice put into effect in part from the autophagy discoveries. Also research the 2016 Nobel prize in medicine which is the discovery of a dormant immune system that is activated by autophagy or intermittent fasting.
people look for a magic bullet in the form of a pill instead of taking action. here's a way to increase all kinds of health benefits but it takes work and personal responsibility.
the results have been repeatedly found to be accurate, and that's the basis for science fact, repeatability. so the challenge is to find a study(s) that would call into doubt the Nobel prize winning scientist whose been studying this for his entire career (30+ years) and then challenge the published results from everyone else whose found the same results, Harvard medical school
Seems pretty solid to me- still scared to try it though...
I'm starting to read/hear more often (from regular everyday people, not scientists) about autophagy as the moving force behind miraculous effects of IF.
When I Google this, I get hits on alllll the standard pseudo-science web sites, and limited actual science (even from science-popularizer sites that tend to be sound sources). This doesn't exactly encourage belief, in my world. Some of the consumer-focused sites I've tended to find to be responsible about reporting have articles on the subject, but I went looking for them.
Google Scholar, as I'd expect, provides more pithy content. Some, but not all, is behind paywalls. Since I'm not a scientist, just an interested amateur, I'm not as effective in evaluating the actual evidence. It would appear, from casual inspection, that the initial research behind the Nobel was in yeast (yes, yeast), and there's been a fair bit of animal research (lotsa mice, no surprise) plus some in vitro cell/tissue stuff, including some in human cells. In vivo appears quite limited, from what I can find, and in the realm of "may enhance" "needs further study", etc.
It appears that one common thrust of research is investigation of pathological conditions in animals (including humans) that may in some way be connected to genetic abnormalities that down-regulate autophagy or interfere with it through some other mechanism. This, too, seems unsurprising, because IMU it's not unusual to use abnormal conditions and their effects to suggest hypotheses about implications for normal conditions.
But those patterns (animal research, in vitro, poking at pathologies) seems to characteristic of early research, but I'm not expert enough to say whether that's a fair observation or not.
While some of this is provocative, I'm not so far finding the "OMG miracle" evidence for results of routine fasting in humans who are simultaneously needing to maintain an energetic daily life. (I'm not finding counter-evidence either - just conceptual blank space, for me, so far.) There seem to be cases in which up-regulating autophagy might even be a bad thing - again, not definitive, but hints. (There are certainly medical conditions for which fasting is currently considered contraindicated.)
Because this is all very interesting, I plan to keep reading, with only my rather unhelpful scientific background and almost no biology background to guide me.
I'm not seeing any profound reason ATM to change my happy and convenient life to get "demonstrated positive results from IF due to autophagy".
Examine.com, which I've learned to largely trust for unbiased, science-based, nonscientist consumer-friendly content, seems still to be in pretty much the same place I came to, before reading their article: Interesting, worth watchin, nondefinitive at this point. (https://examine.com/nutrition/the-low-down-on-intermittent-fasting/)
Bottom line, I think the post I quoted seems like an over-sell.
Have any of the actual science folks here done any reading/research on this topic, and care to comment?
I have been trying to research the claims for awhile. I, also, have found similar things as you. Most of the research was found in animal models, and still very much in it's infancy. Personally, I would have to spend a bit more time to evaluate the methods. Largely, if you increase body weight, you wills see improvements in health markers (almost universal). So the question is, are the eliminating the variable of weight loss and isolate cell turn over.
This is where I generally have issues with many "low carb" or "keto" studies. They are all weight loss studies and often dont maintain levels of protein. So they essentially cheat as compared to the control group. If IF does, in fact, cause and autophagy effect, than it should be demonstrated without weight loss.7 -
texasrigdiver wrote: »research "autophagy fasting". intermittent fasting is the practice put into effect in part from the autophagy discoveries. Also research the 2016 Nobel prize in medicine which is the discovery of a dormant immune system that is activated by autophagy or intermittent fasting.
people look for a magic bullet in the form of a pill instead of taking action. here's a way to increase all kinds of health benefits but it takes work and personal responsibility.
the results have been repeatedly found to be accurate, and that's the basis for science fact, repeatability. so the challenge is to find a study(s) that would call into doubt the Nobel prize winning scientist whose been studying this for his entire career (30+ years) and then challenge the published results from everyone else whose found the same results, Harvard medical school
Seems pretty solid to me- still scared to try it though...
Umm..no
Yoshinori Ohsumi's research has zero to do with intermittent fasting. Not sure why you think it does.
There is a very little amount of research done on autophagy and intermittent fasting, mostly on rodents and in vitro, and definitely no conclusions can be made yet. But that doesn't stop IF proponents from making outlandish claims.9 -
one of the reasons I posted actual scientific studies is because these are the sources I trust. I'm always concerned of the motivations of authors or bloggers that don't quote sources, its just what they think, what are their qualifications? what are their motivations? ego feeding to come across as an expert?
I cant tell anyone anything other than my personal experiences unless you need help rebuilding an air compressor. but if a company is paying me to twist a story then who knows what's true and fake news?
but if someone is looking for articles rather than peer reviewed scientific studies.
Here's one I like: https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy
I'm starting a keto diet with my wife tomorrow. I also want to fast 2 days a week, Mon and Fri...but still, even with all the scientific evidence. I know people do it all the time, I'm just kind of concerned-Hmmm afraid of failing? what If I succeed and works great for me just like it works great for so many others....?17 -
texasrigdiver wrote: »one of the reasons I posted actual scientific studies is because these are the sources I trust. I'm always concerned of the motivations of authors or bloggers that don't quote sources, its just what they think, what are their qualifications? what are their motivations? ego feeding to come across as an expert?
I cant tell anyone anything other than my personal experiences unless you need help rebuilding an air compressor. but if a company is paying me to twist a story then who knows what's true and fake news?
but if someone is looking for articles rather than peer reviewed scientific studies.
Here's one I like: https://www.dietdoctor.com/renew-body-fasting-autophagy
I'm starting a keto diet with my wife tomorrow. I also want to fast 2 days a week, Mon and Fri...but still, even with all the scientific evidence. I know people do it all the time, I'm just kind of concerned-Hmmm afraid of failing? what If I succeed and works great for me just like it works great for so many others....?
Dr Fung is a bias MD who only promotes low carb and fasting. He is a doctor, not a researcher. He has very little education in biochemstry. Listening to his advice would be the equivalent of going to a dermatologist for heart surgery. They are both doctors, but with severely different education.
If you want to information from knowledgable people trained and educated in the field, look at Brad Schoenfeld PhD, Layne Norton PhD, Eric Helms PhD, Menno Henselmans PhD, Alan Aragon, etc..15 -
What's wrong with just, you know, doing IF because it makes weight loss easier for the person who is happier on it? Why does it need a fantastical hook to make someone feel special about following it? If you want a hook, a large percentage of people are unable to sustain a diet. If intermittent fasting makes dieting more sustainable for you, you're one of the special few.13
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