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Science vs. Scruples
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You should if it affects other employees. No one should be made to feel unsafe at work due to their coworkers.9 -
Cassandraw3 wrote: »Not every offender should be locked in their basement for the rest of their lives because they are an inherent threat to society.
So we should let anyone that is an inherent threat to society run free to cause any harm they choose? I agree not every offender should be locked away. However, those who are an inherent threat and continue to cause harm repeatedly with no remorse for their actions should be.
I don't disagree. My point was simply that not all offenders should be treated exactly the same - not every one IS an inherent threat.
Maybe this is the piece missing from my original post - I'm not saying where A.A. does or should fall in the range of offenders (i.e. an apology and some remorse is good enough up through locked away forever). I don't know enough about the details to make that judgement.0 -
How would I be bringing the company into disrepute if the company is unaffected???
The point I was making is that people do, and sometimes should, lose their jobs and income for much much smaller things than repeated sexual assault.
But to go with that point anyway, if I do not make it known anywhere that I work for my company and someone spots me writing anti-semetic or racists screeds all over the internet then yeah, I think it's okay for me to be fired for that. Because that's hate speech, which is a crime, like sexual assault.5 -
The point I was making is that people do, and sometimes should, lose their jobs and income for much much smaller things than repeated sexual assault.
I don't disagree.
I'll back out of this thread for a bit... I'm not sure if I'm not expressing myself well, not reading well, or if my perspective is just that far out line.
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I am troubled today to learn about some very disturbing accusations against one of the most influential figures in the fitness and nutrition industry: Alan Aragon.
https://deadspin.com/how-celebrity-nutritionist-alan-aragon-used-his-status-1828684798
This is a person that has contributed greatly to the field by championing a scientific approach that relies on evidence-based information and objective reasoning in an industry that is flooded with charlatans and snake-oil salesman.
Alan will likely face a major personal downfall over this, but no doubt he will eventually continue to produce valuable science to the field. Is it moral to contribute to an immoral person's financial gain by subscribing to their research reviews, reading their scientific papers, attending their speaking events, following them on social media, etc.? Should their professional insight be shunned so that knowledge is intentionally suppressed due to personal moral objection?
I would like you to look at this through the perspective of these women. They are risking their careers just as well. Some of them just trying to get theirs off the ground.
How many women are feeling suppressed and we are potentially missing everything they are willing to contribute because some entitled man feels like he has the right to grope any woman he wants simply because of his status? How much knowledge is being suppressed by these women?12 -
How would I be bringing the company into disrepute if the company is unaffected???
The point I was making is that people do, and sometimes should, lose their jobs and income for much much smaller things than repeated sexual assault.
But to go with that point anyway, if I do not make it known anywhere that I work for my company and someone spots me writing anti-semetic or racists screeds all over the internet then yeah, I think it's okay for me to be fired for that. Because that's hate speech, which is a crime, like sexual assault.
No, hate speech is not a crime, nor should it be a crime.
As to the original question, the knowledge that has been shown by Aragon is not tainted so the knowledge still stands. The man on the other hand...10 -
Unfortunately, a lot of the people who contributed greatly to our understanding of the world were horrible creeps and in some cases despicably evil people. Who he is does not change the value of what he has already contributed. But it can, and considering his lack of remorse or acknowledgement probably should, affect his ability to be a contributor in the future. Which sucks, because he was really good at it.
Luckily, he wasn't a singular force in the part of the field he was in. And he could probably continue to contribute on a smaller, less public scale. At this point, I certainly wouldn't go anywhere to hear him speak, or directly pay for anything from him, though to be fair, I wasn't doing that anyway. It's tough sometimes to remember that every time you click onto someone's website, you make them more attractive to advertisers.5 -
I can separate facts from opinion so it doesn't change the way I look at the information he provides.
Do I agree with his alleged actions in his personal life? No way, not a chance.
It doesn't make his information / research less credible in any way though. Facts are facts. I might not agree with the way he lives his personal life but I absolutely agree with his work.
I don't idolize celebrities or gurus . I Don't go around trying to follow their personal lives . I always looked at him as a source of information about a topic I am interested in and nothing more.2 -
How would I be bringing the company into disrepute if the company is unaffected???
The point I was making is that people do, and sometimes should, lose their jobs and income for much much smaller things than repeated sexual assault.
But to go with that point anyway, if I do not make it known anywhere that I work for my company and someone spots me writing anti-semetic or racists screeds all over the internet then yeah, I think it's okay for me to be fired for that. Because that's hate speech, which is a crime, like sexual assault.
No, hate speech is not a crime, nor should it be a crime.
As to the original question, the knowledge that has been shown by Aragon is not tainted so the knowledge still stands. The man on the other hand...
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It's a crime where I live.3 -
Crikey! I missed that in my hurry to be a gracious correctee.Evelyn_Gorfram wrote: »...
Moreover, he was a Nazi, making me the first to mention Nazis on this thread; and thus, in accordance with the corollary to Godwin's law, causing me to have forfeited the debate.
No worries
Aaron mentioned Hitler in the first reply. Was inevitable for this topic I think.
I hereby de-forfeitize.
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If people use their job or platform to victimize others then we have to make sure that the opportunity to do that is removed. So they need to lose their job or whatever platform they used to access victims. It is easier for someone like a coach or teacher, they can be suspended or banned from the profession. If someone depends more on their celebrity or status then it is a little more difficult. So it is up to the industry and consumers to make sure that person never regains that kind of status again. So yeah - not supporting his endeavors would be part of that. (I have no idea who this guy is so just a general statement.)4
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In the US it is not... simply because there is no universal definition that includes all groups and does not promote one group over another. To date, the Supreme Court has struck down all attempts at such a definition.5 -
In the US it is not... simply because there is no universal definition that includes all groups and does not promote one group over another. To date, the Supreme Court has struck down all attempts at such a definition.
Okay??? Pick another thing that is an American Crime to fit my example then if you can't work your mind around it.7 -
In the US it is not... simply because there is no universal definition that includes all groups and does not promote one group over another. To date, the Supreme Court has struck down all attempts at such a definition.
Okay??? Pick another thing that is an American Crime to fit my example then if you can't work your mind around it.
Would drunk driving be a good example? If you are convicted of drunk driving, should you lose your job?0 -
Anyone else find the hilarity behind the use of the "pound sign" # in this?
PoundMeToo
It essentially boils down to poor contract negotiations. Any attempts to further this "movement" is pure emotion and hyperbole.
To your question, no...unless you are somehow a holistic purist and throw babies out with bathwater, then it is irrational to discard objective evidence simply because person x didn't care for the advances of person Y.
I see it as a farce and the inevitable conclusion of worshiping celebrities. Assuming both parties are responsible adults of sound mind then it is up to both to accept the responsibility that comes with power and autonomy. You can't desire power without the responsibility that comes with it. Peter Parker would still be crying in a bedroom somewhere and the story would have sucked, much like every victim narrative.19 -
Evelyn_Gorfram wrote: »
His peer-reviewed scientific pubs & credentials will continue to be what they are: science.A bit of background context... Aragon sells his expert opinion in his research reviews, speaking engagements, and I would also guess he makes some significant advertising money. He has also produced some relatively famous peer-reviewed literature regarding protein timing, bodybuilding contest prep nutrition, and BCAA supplementation. These journal publications contribute to his credentials and therefore his earning potential.
If his career is now destroyed because of his behavior, we may never get anything new from him.
The body of scientific knowledge is full of things learned in ways now considered immoral. Mengele and Tuskeegee are among the most infamous, but there's plenty of other examples out there. The knowledge stands.
As for research published by people who've done things that some other people have sometimes considered immoral, I think that covers all research ever done by human beings. Look at Galileo vs. the Inquisition.
If the research is worthwhile, it will be done by somebody. The church stopped Galileo, but it didn't stop others from working out planetary orbits and the physics involved.
However -
This guy's expert opinion is his opinion, and if you're paying for that, you're paying him. If you're buying the stuff he advertises, you're paying him.
IMO, once you know that he's behaved in ways you find unacceptable, whether you can give the guy your money without wanting to vomit is a matter of your own morality.
Interesting point regarding Galileo - the church was already quite aware of heliocentrism, but wanted to keep this information silent. Their explanation being that man would not be able to accept a universe where they were not the center. Objective evidence supports that the true goal of this was to retain political power, hence the use of the Inquisition, which essentially boils down to coerced speech.
A bit of caution is in order when attempting to coerce speech. This marks the beginning of very dark times in human history (e.g. hate speech legislation is the UK).5 -
In the US it is not... simply because there is no universal definition that includes all groups and does not promote one group over another. To date, the Supreme Court has struck down all attempts at such a definition.
Okay??? Pick another thing that is an American Crime to fit my example then if you can't work your mind around it.
Don't have a problem wrapping my mind around the idea, I'm just curious where you draw the line on the stand of 'commit a crime, lose your job' ? Ridiculous example, but if I am out on a weekend on my own personal time and get a ticket for speeding (which is a crime), should I then lose my job?3 -
Would drunk driving be a good example? If you are convicted of drunk driving, should you lose your job?Don't have a problem wrapping my mind around the idea, I'm just curious where you draw the line on the stand of 'commit a crime, lose your job' ? Ridiculous example, but if I am out on a weekend on my own personal time and get a ticket for speeding (which is a crime), should I then lose my job?
I picked hate speech because its a crime where there is still a victim (or a group of victims) and the behaviour is disgusting. I don't know if you're intending to try and downplay the seriousness of sexual assault by comparing it to speeding instead but you're at risk of sounding like you are.
If you drink drive or speed and hit someone, a lot of companies would have no problem firing you tho.
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Would drunk driving be a good example? If you are convicted of drunk driving, should you lose your job?Don't have a problem wrapping my mind around the idea, I'm just curious where you draw the line on the stand of 'commit a crime, lose your job' ? Ridiculous example, but if I am out on a weekend on my own personal time and get a ticket for speeding (which is a crime), should I then lose my job?
I picked hate speech because its a crime where there is still a victim (or a group of victims) and the behaviour is disgusting. I don't know if you're intending to try and downplay the seriousness of sexual assault by comparing it to speeding instead but you're at risk of sounding like you are.
If you drink drive or speed and hit someone, a lot of companies would have no problem firing you tho.
Do not put words in my mouth - I made no comparison to the sexual assault, I was trying to discover the bounds on your assertion of committing a crime should be grounds for losing your job. I think you covered that very nicely with your reply - victim-less crimes do not qualify but crimes where there are victims do.4
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