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Natural vs "other"
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Awesomeopossum74,
I define cheating as altering your stomach or taking pills so you lose your appetite as opposed to determination, willpower, sacrifice, and motivation to name a few. *barring any true medical circumstances that would require you to have it.
I've seen people get surgery being 30lbs overweight.
If anyone's at fault for that, I'd blame the doctors. It's not meant for anyone not morbidly obese.
But here's the thing. Caffeine is a natural appetite suppressant. So, would a person who drinks multiple coffees in a day (versus taking caffeine pills) be similarly "cheating"?
My dad and sister have had WLS. My sister has had multiple serious complications (she had lap-band surgery a number of years ago, before the process was as fine-tuned). My dad has had to permanently change the way he eats. (That was one reason I went a different route; I'm a vegetarian and all I could see was that my basic dietary staples were going to have to go, either permanently or for a number of weeks/months.)
No matter how the weight comes off, keeping it off requires determination/willpower/sacrifice/motivation. It's not a magic bullet.
https://www.healthline.com/health-news/bariatric-surgery-patients-see-weight-gain-after-honeymoon-period-080515
P.S. https://asmbs.org/patients/bariatric-surgery-misconceptions (Have at #3).
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Estherdragonbat,
You got me on the caffeine, lolololol. I drink coffee at times to suppress my appetite. Ha.0 -
Awesomeopossum74,
I define cheating as altering your stomach or taking pills so you lose your appetite as opposed to determination, willpower, sacrifice, and motivation to name a few. *barring any true medical circumstances that would require you to have it.
I've seen people get surgery being 30lbs overweight.
People alter their macro balance, food selection, and eating style all the time in order to lose their appetite. Why is one way "cheating" and the other "motivation"? Seems like it's just a different path to the same process. People who get the surgery still have to put in the work. They still have to sacrifice. They still need motivation.8 -
Diannethegeek,
Interesting point.0 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Awesomeopossum74,
I define cheating as altering your stomach or taking pills so you lose your appetite as opposed to determination, willpower, sacrifice, and motivation to name a few. *barring any true medical circumstances that would require you to have it.
I've seen people get surgery being 30lbs overweight.
People alter their macro balance, food selection, and eating style all the time in order to lose their appetite. Why is one way "cheating" and the other "motivation"? Seems like it's just a different path to the same process. People who get the surgery still have to put in the work. They still have to sacrifice. They still need motivation.
Not to mention, if surgery were a bulletproof 'cheater' way to lose weight guaranteed and effortlessly, the failure rate would be 0. Which it obviously is not. It's still on the individual to persevere and not undo the effects of the surgery by whatever means to go back to their old way of eating.5 -
Cathipa,
Never said I would react any differently, I would feel differently in my mind if you tied up your stomach to lose and I fought and battled to lose mine.
I'm sure many feel the same, but wouldn't dare say it.
We all have feelings when it comes to the different ways that people accomplish things. I think the issue comes when we assume that our feelings are an infalliable guide as to who is worthy of respect or not. They may say more about us than they do about the people we're judging.
Again, is there anything inherently good about "fighting" and "battling" to lose weight? This is the premise that I would question.
5 -
Putting WLS in the same category as diet pills isn't a fair comparison. WLS is backed by science whereas diet pills (at least the over the counter ones), not so much.
Also WLS is not an easy way out. Once they have the surgery, they are working very hard (harder than what I ever have, based on the people I know who have had the surgery) to be more active and stay more active as well as most of them are much stricter with their diet than I've ever been.
People who take diet pills and are successful, are honestly probably doing all the same hard work they would have done if they did it without the pills and are just not giving themselves the credit they deserve, as most over the counter diet pills don't do anything.
As far as respecting anyone any less regardless of their methods, if I caught myself doing that, it would be just me projecting my own insecurities on them for having more success than me.6 -
Cathipa,
Never said I would react any differently, I would feel differently in my mind if you tied up your stomach to lose and I fought and battled to lose mine.
I'm sure many feel the same, but wouldn't dare say it.
It's the fighting and battling part I don't get. In your OP, you said "as we know it's very, very hard" to do this "naturally".
But "we" don't know that, even if you do. From my perspective, losing weight and improving health isn't some odious but potentially character-building ordeal. Sure, it involves changes in routine, maybe some minor inconveniences, a little putting one's future good ahead of one's immediate pleasure (both of which are self-centered things, BTW).
I watched a neighbor who went through weight loss surgery. It was pretty awful - though I know it isn't as bad for everyone as it was for her. Any of the really minor surgeries I've had (tonsillectomy, bilateral mastectomies, gallbladder removal) were as annoying and difficult as weight loss (i.e., not very), but the situation didn't last as long as the weight loss process, that's all. The weight loss surgery has all the same long-term implications as "natural" weight loss - managing intake - plus a bunch of other stuff that sounds pretty terrible to me, even if the surgery goes well. I don't understand how that's so much easier and less character building that it's "cheating"?
Calling losing weight naturally "fighting and battling" or "very, very hard" is over-dramatization, IMO. Or at least it doesn't need to be those, for most people.
I'm pretty sure that if I thought weight loss surgery or weight loss pills were taking the easy way out or cheating, I'd dare to say so. But I think weight loss surgery is a harder course than losing "naturally", and that pills mostly don't work, and can be dangerous.
P.S. I'm thriving, athetically active, and at a healthy weight, at age 62. My neighbor who had weight loss surgery? She died. She was a few years older than me, but not dramatically many. I suspect the surgery was one of many factors that led her there, earlier than might otherwise have been the case. If that's the easy way out, it's further out than I'm interested in going right now.10 -
Cathipa,
Never said I would react any differently, I would feel differently in my mind if you tied up your stomach to lose and I fought and battled to lose mine.
I'm sure many feel the same, but wouldn't dare say it.
Everyone has their own battles. No need to judge people for what you may see as the easy way out. Don't you think before people opted for surgery they have exhausted most options? The way I see it what ever gets you to your destination is your decision you had to make.1 -
As we know there are many opinions on this, of course I couldn't respond to everyone.
But for me, weight loss and changing my entire way of eating and exercising is hard and a total change in my entire lifestyle. So yes, it's difficult but I have finally adjusted and hopefully will continue to strive.
Yes, I feel as though to people who have the unnecessary weight loss surgeries are taking the easier way out and also the ones popping all the dangerous pills. But I wouldn't treat them differently but I wouldn't feel the same as the ones who did it without assistance.
As we all know what opinions are, to each their own.4 -
As we know there are many opinions on this, of course I couldn't respond to everyone.
But for me, weight loss and changing my entire way of eating and exercising is hard and a total change in my entire lifestyle. So yes, it's difficult but I have finally adjusted and hopefully will continue to strive.
Yes, I feel as though to people who have the unnecessary weight loss surgeries are taking the easier way out and also the ones popping all the dangerous pills. But I wouldn't treat them differently but I wouldn't feel the same as the ones who did it without assistance.
As we all know what opinions are, to each their own.
Honest question: have you seen the restrictions on people after they have WLS? It's not like liposuction where they take the fat out and bam! you're skinny. It's a life-altering process with very serious requirements to get the weight off and keep it off afterward. This isn't the magic bullet you seem to be claiming it is. It requires the exact same lifestyle change that you're trying to make. It's just a different way of getting there.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/gastric-bypass-surgery/in-depth/gastric-bypass-diet/art-200484726 -
Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.0 -
Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.
All diets have a miserable success rate, including WLS, calorie counting, IIFYM, and lifestyle changes. I'm not sure what that has to do with judging people who try them, though.6 -
Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.
So if you've seen people who have taken this approach fail in their attempts to keep the weight off, why do you presume this is the "easy" way? Clearly it isn't easier if the long term success rate is no better than those who choose traditional diet and exercise to lose weight and keep it off.
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Cathipa,
Never said I would react any differently, I would feel differently in my mind if you tied up your stomach to lose and I fought and battled to lose mine.
I'm sure many feel the same, but wouldn't dare say it.
Always a mistake to assume people agree with you but are just not saying it.
I certainly do not feel the same - I find your attitude quite self righteous and judgey.
Perhaps many feel the same as me but dare not say it - we don't know what other people feel unless they say so.
PS not sure why there is any brownie points for the most difficult fighting battle.
I lost weight reasonably easily just eating food I liked to my calorie limit.
Have maintained that for nearly 5 years - I'm sure keeping it easy and not making it a big sacrificial battle has helped in that.
17 -
Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.
Go read the "Introduce Yourself" forum and see how many people are coming back to MFP for the second, third (or more) time, having failed at calorie counting and gained all their weight back.
The fact is that somewhere over 90% of people who lose weight fail and gain it back, regardless of how they did it. So the fact that you've witnessed multiple fails with the lap band isn't surprising in the least, nor is it an indictment of WLS. I've also witnessed a lot of people fail when they lost weight "naturally".
Harden up - you've got a long battle in front of you, and it never ends. Once you lose the weight, you have to learn to control your calorie intake to successfully maintain the loss. You don't just lose it and go back to doing what you did before, or you'll be one of the "re-starters" too.8 -
If the person was getting surgery because they wanted quick results ( such as lipo) I respect their journey less than the person who has that will power to work for the body they want. I just respect their journey more.
Nothing is wrong with getting surgery, if I was brave enough I’d pick quick results too.5 -
Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.
Go read the "Introduce Yourself" forum and see how many people are coming back to MFP for the second, third (or more) time, having failed at calorie counting and gained all their weight back.
The fact is that somewhere over 90% of people who lose weight fail and gain it back, regardless of how they did it. So the fact that you've witnessed multiple fails with the lap band isn't surprising in the least, nor is it an indictment of WLS. I've also witnessed a lot of people fail when they lost weight "naturally".
Harden up - you've got a long battle in front of you, and it never ends. Once you lose the weight, you have to learn to control your calorie intake to successfully maintain the loss. You don't just lose it and go back to doing what you did before, or you'll be one of the "re-starters" too.
fwiw, I'm one of those people who failed to maintain with MFP myself.1 -
diannethegeek wrote: »Diannethegeek,
Somewhat, but I have witnessed multiple fail with especially the lap band over the past 8 years.
Go read the "Introduce Yourself" forum and see how many people are coming back to MFP for the second, third (or more) time, having failed at calorie counting and gained all their weight back.
The fact is that somewhere over 90% of people who lose weight fail and gain it back, regardless of how they did it. So the fact that you've witnessed multiple fails with the lap band isn't surprising in the least, nor is it an indictment of WLS. I've also witnessed a lot of people fail when they lost weight "naturally".
Harden up - you've got a long battle in front of you, and it never ends. Once you lose the weight, you have to learn to control your calorie intake to successfully maintain the loss. You don't just lose it and go back to doing what you did before, or you'll be one of the "re-starters" too.
fwiw, I'm one of those people who failed to maintain with MFP myself.
I failed to maintain after losing with MFP, mainly because I stopped using it
Now I'm (almost) back to goal weight again, older and hopefully a little wiser... 7 -
There is no easy (cheating) way.
WLS comes with a myriad of hurdles because one is altering thier body, permanently. This is in addition to the increased risk of the actual surgery done on someone who is obese. People that have WLS will never be able to adjust thier calories to enjoy a big meal with a glass of champagne.
Diet pills. There are three main groups:
1. The one's that do nothing
2. The one's that are illegal
3. The one's with severe side effects that are generally only available by prescription due to the side effects. There are a few exceptions (Alli), but they also come with some nasty (uncontrollable orange stinky anal leakage) side effects.
There's also the issue of extreme saggy skin that comes with rapid massive weight loss. The worse the saggy skin is, the more prone to infection as it rubs against itself and harbor bacteria in the folds.
By losing weight slowly through a sensible calorie deficit, a lot of issues are avoided. While with any massive weight loss, excess skin happens, with slower weight loss - it's less.
One of my friends sister had gastric bypass, she eats about every 30 minutes to an hour, because she can only have about 1/2 to 1 cup in volume of food at a time. She cannot have anything that is carbonated either. She also goes through about half a pack of baby wipes a day to clean between all the skin folds from how bad her excess skin sags. Insurance isn't covering removing the skin as it hasn't cause any issues (basically she has to let it get infected and treated to be considered for insurance coverage removing the skin).3
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