Hal Higdon 10k Training Program: Novice (Progress Thread)

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  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Duck_Puddle wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Please read information in the program before thinking that i am changing it.

    Here is what it says...

    Long Runs: The longest runs of the 10-week schedule are planned for Saturdays, since you probably have more time to do them on the weekends. If Saturday isn’t a convenient day for your long runs, feel free to do them on Sunday–or any other day of the week for that matter. Don’t run these long runs too hard. Keep them at a “conversational” pace; meaning, at a pace slow enough that you can converse with a running companion without getting too much out of breath.

    I switched the long run days to Sunday because Saturday is not good for me.

    The plan includes 5 days of easy activity. 3 running and 2 cross training - which includes things like waking and biking.

    You already nixed the 2 rest days because you think giving your body a chance to recover and rebuild (which is actually when you get stronger and is what allows you to work better the other days) is somehow a sign of weakness or something? Idk-I’m kind of a fan of getting stronger and being able to work effectively all the time so I’m not 100% sure what the issue is here, but you do seem vehemently opposed to rest days.

    Now you’ve changed one of the cross training days to speed work (FYI-“intervals of high intensity running on hilly terrain” counts as speed work).

    That’s not the program.

    You’re welcome to do whatever program you want to do. You can continue to go balls to the wall all day every day if that’s what makes you happy. Enjoy. I don’t mean that sarcastically. I mean that everyone should be following a plan that they jive with and that they enjoy doing.

    But just because you like it doesn’t mean it’s going to get you the results you want.

    If you want to see performance improvements (aka-get faster) you’ll want to follow the actual program.



    The 10 mile plan has 1 rest day, and yes i did nix the 1 day which i should not have.

    I never followed a plan before, but i want to commit to this, so cut me a little slack at least. :)
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Duck_Puddle wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Please read information in the program before thinking that i am changing it.

    Here is what it says...

    Long Runs: The longest runs of the 10-week schedule are planned for Saturdays, since you probably have more time to do them on the weekends. If Saturday isn’t a convenient day for your long runs, feel free to do them on Sunday–or any other day of the week for that matter. Don’t run these long runs too hard. Keep them at a “conversational” pace; meaning, at a pace slow enough that you can converse with a running companion without getting too much out of breath.

    I switched the long run days to Sunday because Saturday is not good for me.

    The plan includes 5 days of easy activity. 3 running and 2 cross training - which includes things like waking and biking.

    You already nixed the 2 rest days because you think giving your body a chance to recover and rebuild (which is actually when you get stronger and is what allows you to work better the other days) is somehow a sign of weakness or something? Idk-I’m kind of a fan of getting stronger and being able to work effectively all the time so I’m not 100% sure what the issue is here, but you do seem vehemently opposed to rest days.

    Now you’ve changed one of the cross training days to speed work (FYI-“intervals of high intensity running on hilly terrain” counts as speed work).

    That’s not the program.

    You’re welcome to do whatever program you want to do. You can continue to go balls to the wall all day every day if that’s what makes you happy. Enjoy. I don’t mean that sarcastically. I mean that everyone should be following a plan that they jive with and that they enjoy doing.

    But just because you like it doesn’t mean it’s going to get you the results you want.

    If you want to see performance improvements (aka-get faster) you’ll want to follow the actual program.



    The 10 mile plan has 1 rest day, and yes i did nix the 1 day which i should not have.

    I never followed a plan before, but i want to commit to this, so cut me a little slack at least. :)

    "not following a plan" =/= "following a plan".
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Duck_Puddle wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Please read information in the program before thinking that i am changing it.

    Here is what it says...

    Long Runs: The longest runs of the 10-week schedule are planned for Saturdays, since you probably have more time to do them on the weekends. If Saturday isn’t a convenient day for your long runs, feel free to do them on Sunday–or any other day of the week for that matter. Don’t run these long runs too hard. Keep them at a “conversational” pace; meaning, at a pace slow enough that you can converse with a running companion without getting too much out of breath.

    I switched the long run days to Sunday because Saturday is not good for me.

    The plan includes 5 days of easy activity. 3 running and 2 cross training - which includes things like waking and biking.

    You already nixed the 2 rest days because you think giving your body a chance to recover and rebuild (which is actually when you get stronger and is what allows you to work better the other days) is somehow a sign of weakness or something? Idk-I’m kind of a fan of getting stronger and being able to work effectively all the time so I’m not 100% sure what the issue is here, but you do seem vehemently opposed to rest days.

    Now you’ve changed one of the cross training days to speed work (FYI-“intervals of high intensity running on hilly terrain” counts as speed work).

    That’s not the program.

    You’re welcome to do whatever program you want to do. You can continue to go balls to the wall all day every day if that’s what makes you happy. Enjoy. I don’t mean that sarcastically. I mean that everyone should be following a plan that they jive with and that they enjoy doing.

    But just because you like it doesn’t mean it’s going to get you the results you want.

    If you want to see performance improvements (aka-get faster) you’ll want to follow the actual program.



    The 10 mile plan has 1 rest day, and yes i did nix the 1 day which i should not have.

    I never followed a plan before, but i want to commit to this, so cut me a little slack at least. :)

    If you want to follow this plan and commit to it then you need to actually follow it. Switching day of the long run is not what I think any of us are talking about here. We're talking about cutting the rest day, not following the plan's advice with relation to cross training, etc. None of us are being especially judgmental, we're calling it as it is. You're not following the plan you said you'd follow (nor are you following the plan you decided to switch to).

    You clearly decided to just go with the 15k plan so let's take a look at what Higdon says about things like "Strength & Stretch" and cross training days.
    Mondays are the days in which I advise you to do some stretching along with some strength training. This is actually a day of rest following your weekend long run. Do some easy stretching of your running muscles.
    And cross-training...
    What cross-training you select depends on your personal preference. But don’t make the mistake of cross-training too vigorously. Cross-training days should be considered easy days that allow you to recover from the running you do the rest of the week.

    One piece of advice before following a plan (or baking a cake or putting together an IKEA bookshelf). Read all of the instructions before you do the plan. Make sure you understand what the plan is saying so that you can actually follow the plan.
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »

    Lessons learned...

    STICK WITH THE FREAKIN PLAN KNUCKLE HEAD!!!

    Yes. I probably do have the "boot camp" mentality from the 6 years i spent in the army. I was always in combat units and we did PT every week day, but you are right @AnvilHead , it was not like it was in boot camp.

    Thank you all for correcting me, and i will try to do better this coming week.

    :)
    Not that you need my praise, but if you stick to week two you will totally get a congratulations from me. Like I think I've said, or at the very least implied, the hidden lesson in this for you is learning how to be patient. You're learning how to train smarter, not harder.

    Good luck.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Week 2 so far...

    awob5jtlsp8n.png

    Things i have noticed...

    My garmin is showing that my fitness is declining. My VO2max has gone from 37 to 33, and my performance condition has gone from "improving" to "detraining".

    I am going to assume that it is because of the decrease in intensity and pace of my runs combined with doing less overall. I am also assuming that that will begin to improve over the course of the program.

    Would this be a safe assumption?

    I also have a request...

    I noticed that on some of the other plans, Wednesdays give a choice or doing a short run or cross training.

    Can i substitute as shown below?

    oz5t1gcz5jkj.png

    Given the low intensity of the runs, i feel like i could do more running.

    thanks,
  • TavistockToad
    TavistockToad Posts: 35,719 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Week 2 so far...

    awob5jtlsp8n.png

    Things i have noticed...

    My garmin is showing that my fitness is declining. My VO2max has gone from 37 to 33, and my performance condition has gone from "improving" to "detraining".

    I am going to assume that it is because of the decrease in intensity and pace of my runs combined with doing less overall. I am also assuming that that will begin to improve over the course of the program.

    Would this be a safe assumption?

    I also have a request...

    I noticed that on some of the other plans, Wednesdays give a choice or doing a short run or cross training.

    Can i substitute as shown below?

    oz5t1gcz5jkj.png

    Given the low intensity of the runs, i feel like i could do more running.

    thanks,

    so you're wanting to change the plan again....?
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    TavistockToad wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Week 2 so far...

    awob5jtlsp8n.png

    Things i have noticed...

    My garmin is showing that my fitness is declining. My VO2max has gone from 37 to 33, and my performance condition has gone from "improving" to "detraining".

    I am going to assume that it is because of the decrease in intensity and pace of my runs combined with doing less overall. I am also assuming that that will begin to improve over the course of the program.

    Would this be a safe assumption?

    I also have a request...

    I noticed that on some of the other plans, Wednesdays give a choice or doing a short run or cross training.

    Can i substitute as shown below?

    oz5t1gcz5jkj.png

    Given the low intensity of the runs, i feel like i could do more running.

    thanks,

    so you're wanting to change the plan again....?

    I am just asking.

    Some of the other plans on the site give the option to run or do cross on Wednesdays.
  • garystrickland357
    garystrickland357 Posts: 598 Member
    Here's my $.02 worth of input. I believe as an aging athlete cross training days are better spent actually cross training. Yes, some plans give the option of running on a cross training day. When I was much younger my body could stand up to 45 miles a week running and 100-150 miles a week cycling. I can't take that kind of pounding now.

    Here's my point. I haven't looked closely at your metrics but it seems that your heart rate gets elevated at a moderate running pace. So - why not cycle, or use an elliptical, or row, or whatever on cross days? This gives your body rest from the impact of running. It also allows you to maintain some training pressure on your cardiovascular system while your muscular/skeletal system gets some relief.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    garystrickland357 wrote: »
    Here's my $.02 worth of input. I believe as an aging athlete cross training days are better spent actually cross training. Yes, some plans give the option of running on a cross training day. When I was much younger my body could stand up to 45 miles a week running and 100-150 miles a week cycling. I can't take that kind of pounding now.

    Here's my point. I haven't looked closely at your metrics but it seems that your heart rate gets elevated at a moderate running pace. So - why not cycle, or use an elliptical, or row, or whatever on cross days? This gives your body rest from the impact of running. It also allows you to maintain some training pressure on your cardiovascular system while your muscular/skeletal system gets some relief.

    Good points, and i appreciate your input.

    I really don't have too many options for cross. Walking & cycling are about it, and I absolutely hate machines.

    Yes, my HR gets up to about 130 (+/- about 5) when running slow. The park i run at has some small hills so it varies a bit, but i feel like i can converse fairly easily at that rate. Right now i have my zones set to %MHR and my MHR set to 170 (the highest recorded max in GC that was legit). That set my zone 3 between 119 and 136, so i try to stay about in the middle of that, and can converse fairly easily in that range. I looked at all my activities over the past year and looked at runs that where i ran for an hour non-stop. I found some that i averaged an HR of about 145 for an hour straight, so that is what i have my lactate threshold set to.

    The thing is that i have been doing about 20 to 30 miles per week between walking, power walking, and running for quite some time now, and probably a half to a third of that are running miles. So i'm not only cutting the intensity, but also cutting the total miles that i am doing per week by a significant amount. I do 100% agree that most of my running should be longer and at a conversational pace, and i have been doing that for a few weeks now, but shouldn't i be still maintaining the weekly miles that i can already do?

    Maybe i should just start from scratch, go for the gold, and try the Novice 1 Marathon Training Plan... :)

    https://halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/novice-1-marathon/

    It's designed for beginner runners (like me).
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »

    Maybe i should just start from scratch, go for the gold, and try the Novice 1 Marathon Training Plan... :)

    https://halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/novice-1-marathon/

    It's designed for beginner runners (like me).
    I'm really hoping that you're being facetious. If not, no - you should stay with the plan you're on (or perhaps go back to the one you started with). It's been what, 5 or 6 days and you're still wavering on committing to a single plan. I am far from convinced that you can commit to following a 18 week plan from start to finish without changing things in a major way (see a large chunk of of your posts in this thread).

    In terms of it being designed for beginners - it's designed for beginners who are used to a larger training load than you are from what I can tell. The milage differences are very different. For example, the first long run in the marathon plan is 6 miles. You don't get to a six mile run in the 15k plan until week six and the milage that week is lower than the first week of the marathon plan you linked to.

    Do yourself a favor and stop debating on changing plans and commit to the one you've chose last week. Training smart requires commitment and patience.
  • Charlene____
    Charlene____ Posts: 110 Member
    I agree with others telling you to stick to a plan. I am a runner, have been for about 6-7 years now but I don't train over the summer. I started up again on Sept 16th- my weekly mileage that week was 14 miles- my long run being only 40 minutes ( I had raced 3 10Ks between June 1 and July 4). Today, 11 weeks later, my weekly mileage was just over 25 with an 8.5 mile long run. But I am progressing nicely with pace and little discomfort in my muscles. But I follow my plan to a T with the exception of having to swap out runs a few times here and there due to scheduling constraints (I travel heavily overseas for work).

    But when it says cross-train, just go out for a nice stroll if you're not a cyclist or a swimmer. I know you said you don't like machines, but it doesn't have to be a power walk, and it certainly should not be a run.

    Just take it easy. You will certainly enjoy your active lifestyle a lot more if you simply relax and follow a plan. (I completely understand when you say you have to do long runs on Sat instead of Sun- I run Sun, Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri even though my plan technically says to run Tues, Wed, Thurs, Sat, Sun). If not, you probably will end up sidelined due to injury or burnout. I know- because I was stupid in 2012 and decided to train for my first triathlon by doing shorter, but more intense workouts than what my plan called for. I hated it, I was grumpy all the time, and I performed way worse than I should have. I'm lucky I got out of that spring without injury.

    Good luck to you.
  • collectingblues
    collectingblues Posts: 2,541 Member
    aokoye wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »

    Maybe i should just start from scratch, go for the gold, and try the Novice 1 Marathon Training Plan... :)

    https://halhigdon.com/training-programs/marathon-training/novice-1-marathon/

    It's designed for beginner runners (like me).
    I'm really hoping that you're being facetious. If not, no - you should stay with the plan you're on (or perhaps go back to the one you started with). It's been what, 5 or 6 days and you're still wavering on committing to a single plan. I am far from convinced that you can commit to following a 18 week plan from start to finish without changing things in a major way (see a large chunk of of your posts in this thread).

    In terms of it being designed for beginners - it's designed for beginners who are used to a larger training load than you are from what I can tell. The milage differences are very different. For example, the first long run in the marathon plan is 6 miles. You don't get to a six mile run in the 15k plan until week six and the milage that week is lower than the first week of the marathon plan you linked to.

    Do yourself a favor and stop debating on changing plans and commit to the one you've chose last week. Training smart requires commitment and patience.

    This. Someone who is trying a novice-to-finish 10K program should *not* jump immediately to a program where the long run is the *length* of a 10K.
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,401 Member
    @OldAssDude

    I've never done any structured running plan, and due to my back probably never will. But I just wanted to pop in and reinforce what some others, some of who are accomplished runners, have stated.

    Plan the dive, dive the plan! (I'm hoping you remember that from your military days) I'm similar to you in wanting to push during training, but in the end volume training then speed seems to work for a lot of cardio based stuff.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Week 2 complete...

    yqrp6aaymvys.png


    Is this better?
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Week 2 complete...

    yqrp6aaymvys.png


    Is this better?

    On first glance that looks a heck of a lot better. My main feedback would be your Sunday run should have been 3 miles not 3.43 (if it was an issue of getting back to the start you should have walked back) and I probably would have cut the power walk down to 3 miles, perhaps less. Otherwise good job, I'm glad you appear to have taken some of our advice.
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    While the long run was longer I wouldn't be too upset about it. Much better @OldAssDude.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    dewd2 wrote: »
    While the long run was longer I wouldn't be too upset about it. Much better @OldAssDude.

    Thanks @dewd2 .

    I walk to the lake (a little over 1 mile) to warm up before i actually start running. I hit the lap button on my FR 935 when i get to the lake and start running, and i know twice around the lake is close to 3.5 miles. When my 3rd mile lap alert went off i felt fine (probably could have done another lap around the lake ( and actually thought about it)), so i kept running until i finished the second lap of the lake. I know tomorrow is a rest day so i didn't think it would be a big deal to do a little extra. I then walk from the lake back to my apartment to cool down. The total distance is 5.58 miles (including warm up and cool down), but only 3.43 miles of running.

    It would have been nice if the first long run on the plan would have been 5 miles since i can already run 5 miles at a conversational pace.

    But, i am trying to follow the plan... :)
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    aokoye wrote: »
    OldAssDude wrote: »
    Week 2 complete...

    yqrp6aaymvys.png


    Is this better?

    On first glance that looks a heck of a lot better. My main feedback would be your Sunday run should have been 3 miles not 3.43 (if it was an issue of getting back to the start you should have walked back) and I probably would have cut the power walk down to 3 miles, perhaps less. Otherwise good job, I'm glad you appear to have taken some of our advice.

    Thank you.

    I am trying... :)
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    robertw486 wrote: »
    @OldAssDude

    I've never done any structured running plan, and due to my back probably never will. But I just wanted to pop in and reinforce what some others, some of who are accomplished runners, have stated.

    Plan the dive, dive the plan! (I'm hoping you remember that from your military days) I'm similar to you in wanting to push during training, but in the end volume training then speed seems to work for a lot of cardio based stuff.

    Thanks @robertw486 .

    I was in the army (not the navy), but i do get it... :)

    And yes, i do need to work on distance until i can run at least 10 miles.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Charlene____ wrote: »
    I agree with others telling you to stick to a plan. I am a runner, have been for about 6-7 years now but I don't train over the summer. I started up again on Sept 16th- my weekly mileage that week was 14 miles- my long run being only 40 minutes ( I had raced 3 10Ks between June 1 and July 4). Today, 11 weeks later, my weekly mileage was just over 25 with an 8.5 mile long run. But I am progressing nicely with pace and little discomfort in my muscles. But I follow my plan to a T with the exception of having to swap out runs a few times here and there due to scheduling constraints (I travel heavily overseas for work).

    But when it says cross-train, just go out for a nice stroll if you're not a cyclist or a swimmer. I know you said you don't like machines, but it doesn't have to be a power walk, and it certainly should not be a run.

    Just take it easy. You will certainly enjoy your active lifestyle a lot more if you simply relax and follow a plan. (I completely understand when you say you have to do long runs on Sat instead of Sun- I run Sun, Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri even though my plan technically says to run Tues, Wed, Thurs, Sat, Sun). If not, you probably will end up sidelined due to injury or burnout. I know- because I was stupid in 2012 and decided to train for my first triathlon by doing shorter, but more intense workouts than what my plan called for. I hated it, I was grumpy all the time, and I performed way worse than I should have. I'm lucky I got out of that spring without injury.

    Good luck to you.

    Thanks @Charlene____ .

    I'm just old, stubborn, and have an x-army attitude. :)

    i have never followed and program before, and for going on 4 years now have been doing much more intense (for an old guy) workouts just about every day, so i have to get used to toning it down quite a bit, and it ain't easy, but i'm working on it.
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    One thing that i am becoming concerned about is my Garmin Training Status.

    Before i started all this my VO2max was 37 (good for my age), my training status was "improving", and i had a good training load.

    Since then it has taken a nose dive.

    My VO2max is now 32 (poor for my age), my training status is "unproductive", and my training load is low.

    Maybe it is the sudden change in my training over the past 2 to 3 weeks that confused my Garmin?

    I intend to stick to the plan, but not sure what is going on with Garmin.

    On the other hand Garmin tends to never make you think you are doing enough to begin with, and tends to always want you to work harder (even when you're beating yourself up).
  • OldAssDude
    OldAssDude Posts: 1,436 Member
    Ok.

    I contacted Hal Higdon via Facebook Messenger.

    Me...
    Hi Hal. I am currently doing your 10 mile Novice plan. I notice that on some of your other plans you give the option to do run or cross. Would it be ok to make Wednesday an optional run cross day instead of cross?

    Thank you in advance.

    A little about me. I'm 61 and can already run 5 miles at a slow pace. I am just doing this to improve my fitness, and have never competed in a race or anything. I have also never followed any sort of plan before. I have been averaging about 30 miles per week between running, power walking, and recovery walks. I normally train at much higher intensity than conversational, but understand that i should be doing most of my runs at a conversational pace and intend to do that following this plan.

    Or maybe your Novice 1 Half Marathon plan would be better?

    His reply...
    Yes, definitely follow a plan that will offer guidance to what you are doing. The half would be a good preliminary goal.

    So i guess i will be doing the "Novice 1 Half Marathon plan". It is 3.1 miles more than the 10 mile plan, but over 12 weeks instead of 10. And it allows the optional "run or cross" on Wednesdays.

    alrzyezwh4fa.png


    I am going to start fresh tomorrow, and use the last 2 weeks as a learning experience for how to follow a plan. :)

    I would like to thank you all for being so patient with me, and i probably should have done more research before committing to the original 10k plan. Please understand that this is new to me, and it's frustrating going from doing much higher intensity to much lower intensity workouts.

    Plus... I'm old and stubborn. :)
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    FWIW - The VO2Max is just a good guess. Mine goes up and down depending on how I am training. Am I in better shape because I can run a fast 5k or when I can run a fast marathon? Garmin thinks my fitness level is different depending on how I train. I disagree.

    Also, FWIW, I have run some of my fastest races when I was 'unproductive' and felt like *kitten* when I was peaking. Don't live by what some gadget tells you.
  • Duck_Puddle
    Duck_Puddle Posts: 3,237 Member
    edited December 2018
    dewd2 wrote: »
    FWIW - The VO2Max is just a good guess. Mine goes up and down depending on how I am training. Am I in better shape because I can run a fast 5k or when I can run a fast marathon? Garmin thinks my fitness level is different depending on how I train. I disagree.

    Also, FWIW, I have run some of my fastest races when I was 'unproductive' and felt like *kitten* when I was peaking. Don't live by what some gadget tells you.

    This times a million. Mine is a fantastic weather reporter. If it’s humid (and i’m slower so my Vo2max estimate is lower), Garmin tells me I’m UNPRODUCTIVE, if I go to the desert the next day (and I’m faster so my Vo2max estimate is higher), I’m magically productive. If I’m sick and my last Vo2max estimate was slightly higher than the one before, I’m peaking (because my training volume is down while my VO2MAX is up)! Sweet! Manflu is the key to race training!

    If I do speed focused training, my estimates are higher. If I do LISS (a day later), my estimates are lower.

    My Vo2max estimate fluctuates over a 6 point (?) range. My race times continue to improve, the paces I am able to run various efforts continue to decrease, and my endurance is also improving - despite the fact that I’ve spent nearly all of the last 12 months being UNPRODUCTIVE according to Garmin.

    And as a secondary measure-those Vo2max estimates accompany projected race times. How reaslistic do those look for you? Garmin thinks I’m Paula Radcliffe.

    Don’t get hung up on that number. It’s a little like bodyfat estimates on a scale-sort ot OK for a trending but not really an accurate assessment.

    You started all this to improve your running pace. I’m not sure if that’s still the goal or not-but if it is, measure your pace as a gauge or progress. Not the conjured number that Garmin spits out based on the weather, your fatigue, the type of training you did that day, etc. because that’s not your pace.
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