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Is counting calories all wrong?

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Replies

  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,597 Member
    rfrenkel77 wrote: »
    Posting my own numbers and making no claims, here is every weight in point from aria2 Fitbit scale. In the study dr Fung shows in low carb vale, people fasted every other day for 30 days. Exactly what I am doing. Don’t sense anything unhealthy about it.

    No claims in here, then?
    rfrenkel77 wrote: »
    azzeazsaleh5429 wrote: »
    What counting calories has taught me so far, I lost touch with proper portions sizes to a point when I calculate calories I need to cut back a lot of food off my plate or else I will mess up my daily calorie intake. For example, just had some of our family favorite pizza, its 424 calories a slice before mfp I easily would eat 4 slices now I counted calories I only can eat 2 slices. So its a whole new ball game when portioning food for my new ideal weight that is what I am trying to acquire. Not to mention how all the macros get screwed up with all the wrong types of food. My protein for the day is way too low eating bad food.

    This is valuable lesson of course. That’s you are eating crap all day, in large amounts, and still missing a macronutrient. When you not getting it your body craves more food, so you are still hungry after 4 slices. But back to you original question, is dr Fung a quack? Find one from low carb vale where he shows studies of calorie reduction vs fasting. That’s the real gem. Systemic calorie reduction reduces metabolism. So you become less and less efficient at burning your fat stores. So how to optimize your fat burn to the max? You eat nothing! According to studies, there is a totally different hormone response to lowered calorie intake vs 0 calorie intake. With 0 calorie intake the fat stores are opened. So you achieve an efficient fat burning effect without lowering metabolism. On days you eat you don’t reduce calories. You don’t overeat of course , because that will put more fat in storage. Anyway that’s what I took away from his video and I’m experimenting with fasting myself, to try and get same effect as the studies.

    You wouldn't just be "siting" the video that began this thread, I hope?

    Here is an interval of simple calorie restriction (below), from the better part of a year that looks the same. I'm not seeing the lack of fat burning effect. (As an aside, this is my data, and I did lose unhealthfully fast for a time, accidentally, because MFP underestimates my calorie needs, even with accurate inputs. I don't recommend losing very fast, based simply on personal experience.)

    bxa1yct7jdu8.png
  • solieco1
    solieco1 Posts: 1,559 Member
    AnnPT77 wrote: »
    rfrenkel77 wrote: »
    ladyreva78 wrote: »
    How much weight lost is that? My attempt at calculating it out comes to around 8lbs... In 9 days? That seems insane and far from healthy.
    Mostly water obviously. Define unhealthy weight loss and Please site the study.

    Flag on the play: Requesting site for platitude, after making extraordinary claims on thread, without offering cites in support.

    Politeness is nice, but penalty stands. Play resumes at previous post.

    ;););)

    Bwahahaha Now I have to clean my keyboard of coffee-spit......
  • Phirrgus
    Phirrgus Posts: 1,894 Member
    estherdragonbat wrote: »
    Funnily enough, this turned up in my inbox yesterday: https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/metabolic-damage/

    Metabolic damage isn't really everything I thought it was...

    Thanks for posting that link, it's a good read for a lay-person like me.

    So metabolic "damage" isn't damage at all, just the bodies natural adjustments to weight changes/age etc.

    I like how the author states continually that there's nothing to fix because it isn't broken.
  • FitFamilyGuy
    FitFamilyGuy Posts: 73 Member
    edited January 2019
    rfrenkel77 wrote: »
    FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
    I found that I didn't make progress over that winter because of the absence of protein. This winter I am just as lean but feeling stronger and gaining muscle. That is my experience. I won't go back to Intermittent fasting.

    Not sure why you are blaming IF for lack of protein. You can eat as much protein as you body weight requires. . As far as I understand at least IF is not a bodybuilding tactic, it’s a body burning tactic.


    I AGREE! The key being, "body burning tactic"... I am not a bodybuilder, I'm a fit middle aged husband and dad. To keep this fit I value my metabolism and muscle. I don't want to burn my body, I want to build it up, feel strong and be a fat burning machine! It is about Fat Loss, not Weight Loss for me.

    I'm 175 lbs, wear a medium sized t-shirt, look rather healthy in a shirt yet a little more bodybuilderish or athletic with it off. I'll take the bodybuilder comment as a compliment kind of like when someone asks if I am on steroids or if I am a millennial... that happened last year at age 40. As I passed age 40 and then 41, I started to really see the benefits of my lifestyle and exercise regime compared to many of my peers. Too bad more people didn't have as clear of a path to being fit and healthy.

    Also, I did eat enough protein each day but it is my opinion that 16 hours without protein being ingested resulted in my body using my hard earned muscle as a source (Intermittent Fasting, "body burning tactic").

    Fat Loss, not Weight Loss. In my opinion Intermittent Fasting was sacrificing my muscle, which hurts my metabolism and ability to burn fat. Lean and strong middle aged family guy, not bodybuilder. :)
  • FitFamilyGuy
    FitFamilyGuy Posts: 73 Member
    edited January 2019
    magnusthenerd wrote: »
    FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
    rfrenkel77 wrote: »
    azzeazsaleh5429 wrote: »
    What counting calories has taught me so far, I lost touch with proper portions sizes to a point when I calculate calories I need to cut back a lot of food off my plate or else I will mess up my daily calorie intake. For example, just had some of our family favorite pizza, its 424 calories a slice before mfp I easily would eat 4 slices now I counted calories I only can eat 2 slices. So its a whole new ball game when portioning food for my new ideal weight that is what I am trying to acquire. Not to mention how all the macros get screwed up with all the wrong types of food. My protein for the day is way too low eating bad food.

    This is valuable lesson of course. That’s you are eating crap all day, in large amounts, and still missing a macronutrient. When you not getting it your body craves more food, so you are still hungry after 4 slices. But back to you original question, is dr Fung a quack? Find one from low carb vale where he shows studies of calorie reduction vs fasting. That’s the real gem. Systemic calorie reduction reduces metabolism. So you become less and less efficient at burning your fat stores. So how to optimize your fat burn to the max? You eat nothing! According to studies, there is a totally different hormone response to lowered calorie intake vs 0 calorie intake. With 0 calorie intake the fat stores are opened. So you achieve an efficient fat burning effect without lowering metabolism. On days you eat you don’t reduce calories. You don’t overeat of course , because that will put more fat in storage. Anyway that’s what I took away from his video and I’m experimenting with fasting myself, to try and get same effect as the studies.

    Last winter I did intermittent fasting. I had a "feeding window" for about 8-10 hours and I fasted overnight for 14-16 hours. I found that because I was going so long without protein my body was breaking down the muscle I made to feed the muscle I worked. I found that I didn't make progress over that winter because of the absence of protein. This winter I am just as lean but feeling stronger and gaining muscle. That is my experience. I won't go back to Intermittent fasting.

    I think you might have felt you weren't progressing or performing as well, which is a fine enough claim to make, but I fail to see how you can know the bolded statement without some lab tests.
    It seems kind of unlikely that, at the the same level of protein, your body is just just letting protein pass through the gut or go who knows where and instead using protein already in muscles.

    Thanks for the reply. I would have to first say that I am stating some opinions based on my experiences. Next, I'd like to clarify that I personally have things pretty dialed in when it comes to my fitness.

    I hate to constantly bring up my background but it makes it hard to add credibility without putting some context to the posts. My last post went into it a bit... the basics.... I've been at this for over 26 years, I've more or less had the build in my profile picture at age 41 since I was 15.

    I can tell how my body responds to changes. I know when I make a major change to my decades of habits like my diet and how my body responds. I have not really changed my training style for 26 years... honestly. I certainly have experimented year after year but generally speaking my experiments are temporary and my basic style has been rather consistent. I know what I was doing at the gym all winter long yet my anabolic, muscle building growth and power just did not feel the same when I was intermittent fasting.

    This winter I am back to my old nutrition style, not intermittent fasting and I feel like my old self again... Powerful, growing, lean and strong at 41. :)
  • HeliumIsNoble
    HeliumIsNoble Posts: 1,213 Member
    GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
    It still amazes me how people eating zero calories periodically on a regular basis think they're somehow not reducing their overall caloric intake.

    Fung would make PT Barnum proud with how many people he's hoodwinked with this sales pitch.
    Wait.


    I thought that the entire point of IF was that it was a method to reduce calorie intake for people who found occasional fasting suited them better than eating less, moving more every day!

    I haven't watched any videos on it and clearly I'm missing a lot here.
  • burnsdanna
    burnsdanna Posts: 7 Member
    I have been doing IF daily 18/6 since Dec 2018 , except for a couple of weeks off during festive frenzy I've stuck to it, I've dropped 19 lbs BUT this is I believe is because of my calorie deficit, I initially found eating all my calories difficult but added tasty fat ( butter , avocado etc ) during my feeding window, I don't believe IF is a magic bullet for weight loss but as a nearly 55yr old woman i was interested in the health benefits fasting may have for me - anecdotally I sleep better, feel cognitively on the ball , brain fog has lifted & my mood is definitely better, I also find not having to think about breakfast & lunch really freeing :) . I haven't actively cut carbs or sugar either though do find I desire them less. I try to keep 200 Cals for a treat each day - usually salted popcorn or a bar of chocolate . I do not feel like I'm missing out like I did when I was following WW & SW , For the first time in my adult dieting life I feel I've found something that fits in with my family life. my work life and my crazy post menopausal body- eating less and eating this all in in a shorter window :)
  • Keto_Vampire
    Keto_Vampire Posts: 1,670 Member
    FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
    Keto_Vampire wrote: »
    FitFamilyGuy wrote: »
    IF eating regularly tells my body to store those calories as fat and my body is not being told by my frequent eating to burn fat then:

    How do I stay muscular and lean?

    Steroids? No... never did them even once.
    Youth? No... I'm 41 years old.
    Dieting for summer? No... I'm lean year round.
    Fasting? No... don't fast except during my 8 hour sleep.
    Low carb? No... love carbs. I eat them all of the time.
    No sugar? No... my post workout involves low fat ice-cream... daily.
    Only 3 meals per day? NO WAY... I'm constantly eating.
    Cardio? No... I've never enjoyed or stuck to cardio longer than a few weeks. Boring!
    Temporary Good Luck? No... I've been doing this for 26 years.
    Fitness Obsession? No... I have a family & only lift weights about 45 minutes a day with few working sets.
    Athlete? No... just a regular old family guy.

    How is this possible? According to the principles of the video, how do I burn fat? This isn't just theoretical. I would like an honest answer.

    But, were you able to OBJECTIVELY figure kcals-in vs. kcals out (TDEE) over said 26 years...? Or even just estimate/at least come close/ballpark?

    I'm not exactly sure if I understand your point but I will try to answer anyway.

    For about 22 years I used 90/10 rules like conscious food choices to keep my diet in check. I was always lean, strong and similar in build to my current build. (although just 135 lbs at the start of grade 10 at the very beginning)

    Over the past 4 or 5 years but especially the last 2 years I took it up a notch by counting calories. I don't need to count calories but I like to. I like the precision control/results and flexibility of counting calories. For me, when I count calories, cutting out some fat with little loss of muscle or adding some muscle with very little fat is as easy as making the decision to do it.

    Are you for or against counting calories? To answer your question, yes I know my average calorie burn rate per day and I get in the ballpark each week to gain muscle or lose fat at will. In the middle of winter I'm currently getting stronger, hitting new personal bests (26 years in) I still have abs. I can provide proof you wish.

    I'd still like to know how the principles in the video would explain why I stay lean and constantly eat through the entire day.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Firm believer in kcals-in, kcals-out as being the overwhelming factor for determining weight changes. I am not saying there is no impact from hormones but rather that the stated impact from hormonal regulation is grossly over-exaggerated/does not contribute nearly as greatly as figuring out TDEE, measuring kcal intake, accounting for NEAT, activity, etc. Similar to the "afterburn" effect of HIIT (objectively/by the #s just over-exaggerated).

    Some people are just fine eating by intuition & there are many regulation systems @ play in which overtime he/she will simply undulate back & forth slightly above & slightly below maintenance without actively logging # kcals consumed each day (end up @ maintenance overall without realizing it).
  • rfrenkel77
    rfrenkel77 Posts: 103 Member
    [[/quote]

    Sounds like a tu quo que. So let's say dieobesity costs infinity billion dollars a second. Does it follow that Fung is allowed to make stuff up with little to no actual empirical study, even if all of it only costs the time of those that fall for it?[/quote]

    Whatever he he made up is working.

    hsydg1zj9zun.png


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