Keto Diet
sabrinaconner1975
Posts: 1 Member
What is your opiniin of the Keto Diet? My doctor wants me to follow it and she is actually doing the same diet. We discussed it extensively and came to the understanding that if I find issues with it, WE will work together to find whats good for me. I suffer from IBS and the "salad" core of Keto may not work well with my system. Just asking for pros and cons and possible tips! Thanks in advance!!
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I've never heard of salads being a focus of keto?8
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Caveat: I don't know the specifics of a diet for IBS or other medical conditions. That's one for your doctor/specialist. As far as keto, it really comes down to whether it's a way of eating that can work for you longterm.
Generally, people who do well on keto are people who feel full on high fat. I'm not one of them; for me, it's protein and fiber. If many of your favorite foods are carb-heavy and the idea of living without them (or cutting back heavily on them) depresses you, then it may not be the best plan for you.
By the way, there are posters on these forums who eat lower carb without going all-out keto.
Again, this is general advice from a random internet stranger (who isn't even doing keto herself, though she has nothing against it for those who like it) and should not replace expert medical advice.6 -
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aishmartin wrote: »
Not really. Keto is just very low carb (some say 20 g net or less, some allow more). Some people focus on a healthy version of a keto diet and eat less sat fat and more non starchy veg, but many others eat very few veg. Both (and in-between) are keto diets.
I love vegetables and was in the habit of eating more than 10 servings of veg a day pre keto and found that my non-starchy veg preferences were kicking me over my carb goal, even with no other sources of carbs but a serving of nuts or full fat dairy. I certainly could not meet my veg preferences and have any fruit (but for avocado), and of course had to cut out many other sources of whole food, nutrient-dense carbs.
Sure you can have salads on keto, but many keto followers rarely eat them.3 -
aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
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Aishmartin is absolutely correct. In order for your body to enter ketogenisis you should be eating below 35g carbs or 25g net carbs everyday. That 25g of carbs can come from a variety of sources. However, neither my physician who recommended it to me, nor any of the many videos/blogs I've read on the subject, suggest that those 25g of carbs should come from 1 bite of a chocolate bar. No, instead it should come from a variety of leafy/cruciferous green veggies that will supply you with a wide range of nutrients that you might otherwise be missing on this diet. The best tend to be spinach, asparagus, etc. You'd be surprised how many of those vegetables it takes to make up 25g (at least half a plateful at every meal).
If you'd like a good source of information on veggies on keto I suggest these two links:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
https://www.ruled.me/best-low-carb-vegetables-ketogenic-diet/12 -
Aishmartin is absolutely correct. In order for your body to enter ketogenisis you should be eating below 35g carbs or 25g net carbs everyday. That 25g of carbs can come from a variety of sources. However, neither my physician who recommended it to me, nor any of the many videos/blogs I've read on the subject, suggest that those 25g of carbs should come from 1 bite of a chocolate bar. No, instead it should come from a variety of leafy/cruciferous green veggies that will supply you with a wide range of nutrients that you might otherwise be missing on this diet. The best tend to be spinach, asparagus, etc. You'd be surprised how many of those vegetables it takes to make up 25g (at least half a plateful at every meal).
If you'd like a good source of information on veggies on keto I suggest these two links:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
https://www.ruled.me/best-low-carb-vegetables-ketogenic-diet/
Thank you, I'll take a look at the links.1 -
Honestly, if you have a medical condition, restricting foods that are going to be beneficial to it, is probably going to make this more difficult. I find keto way to restrictive and it takes away a lot of very health foods. Plus, I wasn't satiated by fat. I am more satiated by carbs, especially potatoes. I lost all my weight doing a lower fat diet.
But ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. You could try low carb or keto to see how it affects your IBS. If it helps it and you find it sustainable, great. If it doesn't, than change the foods you eat.
What I generally suggest, why not start lowering carbs and increasing proteins/fats to see if that helps alleviate the symptoms.3 -
A common misconception among most people, even those who do keto, is that its all about the fat, all the bacon, all the eggs, all the butter, but that's not true, at least not for a healthy sustainable way of eating. Non-starchy vegetables should be a big focus of eating keto and should be where your 20 carbs (or however many carbs you choose to eat) comes from. I eat keto/low carb, for medical purposes as well as weight loss and find that I eat more vegetables now than when I was trying to follow a simple CICO way of eating. It is important to note though that Keto/Low Carb isn't a fad short term decision, if you are going to do it, especially for medical reasons, its a true lifestyle change.5
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Aishmartin is absolutely correct. In order for your body to enter ketogenisis you should be eating below 35g carbs or 25g net carbs everyday. That 25g of carbs can come from a variety of sources. However, neither my physician who recommended it to me, nor any of the many videos/blogs I've read on the subject, suggest that those 25g of carbs should come from 1 bite of a chocolate bar. No, instead it should come from a variety of leafy/cruciferous green veggies that will supply you with a wide range of nutrients that you might otherwise be missing on this diet. The best tend to be spinach, asparagus, etc. You'd be surprised how many of those vegetables it takes to make up 25g (at least half a plateful at every meal).
As I said above, I did keto, was aiming for a HIGHER carb level (35 g net carbs, around 60 g total carbs), and I could not fit in my usual amount of non starchy veg, despite the fact that I ate no fruit but avocado and limited other carbs (other than minimal from an egg or what not) to a serving of nuts or dairy (greek yogurt or cottage cheese).
Many others seemed to be able to fit in some raspberries or keto treats that contained carbs at the 20 g net level, so no way was the standard keto diet vegetable based, at least not based on my own understanding of what a lot of veg were. I'm not saying they were too few veg to be healthy in most cases, but from my diary peeking they were typically amounts that seemed pretty small to me. I think many people have quite different views than I do on what a large amount of veg is, however.
I eat well over 20 net carbs from non starchy veg on a normal day (did so before I tried keto and now that I'm not doing it), and of course a greater variety than you can do on keto (and I don't have to worry about whether some veg I'm in the mood for, like brussels sprouts, happens to be a higher carb veg) -- that, and not having fruit or beans/legumes (which pushed me into a more meat-heavy diet than I like) are the things I found most unworkable for me on keto.3 -
randomgyrl wrote: »A common misconception among most people, even those who do keto, is that its all about the fat, all the bacon, all the eggs, all the butter, but that's not true, at least not for a healthy sustainable way of eating. Non-starchy vegetables should be a big focus of eating keto and should be where your 20 carbs (or however many carbs you choose to eat) comes from. I eat keto/low carb, for medical purposes as well as weight loss and find that I eat more vegetables now than when I was trying to follow a simple CICO way of eating. It is important to note though that Keto/Low Carb isn't a fad short term decision, if you are going to do it, especially for medical reasons, its a true lifestyle change.
The issue I had when doing anything close to keto (I was aiming net 50g) was the lack of veggies, especially since the majority of veggies i tend to really enjoy are higher GI veggies. Also my issue is I am a volume eater and veggies really added up my carbs quickly. For example, normal levels of avocado for me are 225g, Broccoli/Cauliflower was over 200g, etc..
For me, it was actually rare, unless I cut out veggies, to get below 50g total. And living off of spinach wasn't going to work.5 -
aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
I just bookmarked the site and will look into it more this afternoon (heading out the door right now). Thanks!0 -
Well, I'm a vegetarian lowcarber (maybe keto-er, I aim for 30-40g net carbs per day) who eats lots of vegetables and has IBS.
It's taken me a bit of trial and error to figure out what works for me. I've given an example below.
I find the biggest trigger for my IBS in this diet are not the healthy veggies but sugar substitutes. Malitol is an enormous no-no. I can tolerate some levels of erythritol, xylitol and stevia but only a limited amount.
Today I had:
Breakfast: Home made seeded crackers (pumpkin seeds, chia seeds and psylium husk) and coffee
Lunch: Capsicum and carrot crudites, almond hummous, olives and cheese.
Afternoon tea: Coffee and a homemade protein bar
Dinner: Large spinach salad with capsicum, zucchini, olives, pumpkin seeds and walnut oil. Beyond meat (faux) chicken strips. Half a piece of low carb, high protein toast.
After dinner snack/dessert: small portion of strawberries and raspberries with low sugar yoghurt. Small piece of Lily's low sugar chocolate.
Apart from the 2 coffees, I drank about 2L of water.3 -
Shadioutwo wrote: »Well, I'm a vegetarian lowcarber (maybe keto-er, I aim for 30-40g net carbs per day) who eats lots of vegetables and has IBS.
It's taken me a bit of trial and error to figure out what works for me. I've given an example below.
I find the biggest trigger for my IBS in this diet are not the healthy veggies but sugar substitutes. Malitol is an enormous no-no. I can tolerate some levels of erythritol, xylitol and stevia but only a limited amount.
Today I had:
Breakfast: Home made seeded crackers (pumpkin seeds, chia seeds and psylium husk) and coffee
Lunch: Capsicum and carrot crudites, almond hummous, olives and cheese.
Afternoon tea: Coffee and a homemade protein bar
Dinner: Large spinach salad with capsicum, zucchini, olives, pumpkin seeds and walnut oil. Beyond meat (faux) chicken strips. Half a piece of low carb, high protein toast.
After dinner snack/dessert: small portion of strawberries and raspberries with low sugar yoghurt. Small piece of Lily's low sugar chocolate.
Apart from the 2 coffees, I drank about 2L of water.
I'm a vegetarian who tried a trial of low carb for six weeks to see if it helped migraines. It didn't, and it made my arthritis symptoms worse too. I also have IBS and nuts and seeds are a trigger, so they were off the table.
I also, since I value muscle mass, ate a higher amount of protein than I think you do (I aimed for about 100 grams a day while I was doing keto), and that ate into some of my carb allowance.
Where I really struggled on keto, besides the pain I was in, was having to cut back on my normal veggie intake.
It really was not possible to have what I personally consider to be a massive amount of vegetables and come in around 35 net grams of carbs per day.
The problem in discussions like these is that massive is a subjective term.
I'm glad keto works for you though!8 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Shadioutwo wrote: »Well, I'm a vegetarian lowcarber (maybe keto-er, I aim for 30-40g net carbs per day) who eats lots of vegetables and has IBS.
It's taken me a bit of trial and error to figure out what works for me. I've given an example below.
I find the biggest trigger for my IBS in this diet are not the healthy veggies but sugar substitutes. Malitol is an enormous no-no. I can tolerate some levels of erythritol, xylitol and stevia but only a limited amount.
Today I had:
Breakfast: Home made seeded crackers (pumpkin seeds, chia seeds and psylium husk) and coffee
Lunch: Capsicum and carrot crudites, almond hummous, olives and cheese.
Afternoon tea: Coffee and a homemade protein bar
Dinner: Large spinach salad with capsicum, zucchini, olives, pumpkin seeds and walnut oil. Beyond meat (faux) chicken strips. Half a piece of low carb, high protein toast.
After dinner snack/dessert: small portion of strawberries and raspberries with low sugar yoghurt. Small piece of Lily's low sugar chocolate.
Apart from the 2 coffees, I drank about 2L of water.
I'm a vegetarian who tried a trial of low carb for six weeks to see if it helped migraines. It didn't, and it made my arthritis symptoms worse too. I also have IBS and nuts and seeds are a trigger, so they were off the table.
I also, since I value muscle mass, ate a higher amount of protein than I think you do (I aimed for about 100 grams a day while I was doing keto), and that ate into some of my carb allowance.
Where I really struggled on keto, besides the pain I was in, was having to cut back on my normal veggie intake.
It really was not possible to have what I personally consider to be a massive amount of vegetables and come in around 35 net grams of carbs per day.
The problem in discussions like these is that massive is a subjective term.
I'm glad keto works for you though!
Yes, it's absolutely a case of finding out what works for you, which was what my rambling point to the OP was lol. I couldn't cope if I wasn't able to eat nuts and seeds, they form so much of my diet!
I aim for 80g of protein per day or 25% of my daily allowance and usually manage to hit it, but I do have to eat specific protein foods like the Beyond Meat fake chicken, protein bars etc.
I'm sorry it didn't work for your migraines - I originally started Keto/LCHF to help with fertility issues and found it a lucky side effect that my migraines have all but disappeared. There is definitely a link between IBS and migraines and it sucks!
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
Ok, had some time to look through that site (I even set up an account so I could get a more in-depth look around). Few things that immediately stood out to me:
-in the Keto for Total Beginners section they claim in big, bold letters that keto is the most effective weight loss diet. Then, in smaller letters they go on to say it 'may' be the best way, based on one randomized study. So right away red flags are going off for me because they're intentionally being misleading. The rest of that section is also full of false claims and misinformation. Not off to a good start here
Also, nowhere in this section is there any talk about vegetables. Literally-nothing. So, that's raising more red flags because if keto is about having plates half full of veggies, I'd think it would be discussed in the 'start here' section of the site, which tells what the plan is about?
I then checked out the Macros section, nope-nothing about veggies there either.
Finally found a mention of vegetables in the Hidden Carbs section. It says that vegetables are an important part of any diet (first it's being mentioned on their website though), and then goes on to give a list of vegetables you must not eat, sigh....
Finally get to the veggies in the What Carbs Can You Have section. However, while they say you can have large amounts of low carb veggies, the list they provide has a grand total of SIX different kinds of veggies.
At this point everything I had previously thought about keto was confirmed, but I did spend a few more minutes browsing the sites recipe section. The recipes pictures speak for themselves-there is absolutely NO emphasis on veggies, half plates or otherwise. A few recipes incorporated broccoli or cauliflower but yeah, not seeing anything that's pointing to veggies being a focal point.
Now that's just one keto site and I'm sure someone will say it's not giving accurate info on how to do keto. However, it claims to have over 3 million subscribers, so obviously there's people following their information.
Anyways, I do appreciate the link and it was interesting to look into the nuts and bolts of keto a bit more
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
If people are being told that carbohydrates are what is making them fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss, it doesn't follow that it's "common sense" that the people who believe this would also be eating abundant amounts of vegetables . . . which are mostly carbohydrates.
If keto-promoters do think that vegetables are part of a healthy diet (and not all of them do believe this, there are people who advocate for a zero carbohydrate diet and follow it themselves), I think it would need to be specifically called out.
You can't tell people that carbohydrates are dangerous and then say it's "common sense" that the people who believe that will then eat vegetables.10 -
@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
If you find that you're getting painted by a brush that paints people you identify with (keto) consider that either you need the wherewithal to accept that brush, or don't identify with that group. If the keto label has too much baggage and you find how it is used is different from your understanding, you may want to just talk about your diet plan and not calling it keto. Otherwise, at some point all you're doing is arguing semantics, and eventually dictating to one another wheat each of you has to mean to use a word like keto, and people tend to find those conversations unproductive until at least one party drops the their definition and both parties use just one.
And there are definitely people in the more specialized keto diets who are "carnivores" and try to avoid eating anything plant based, including vegetables:
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
Ok, had some time to look through that site (I even set up an account so I could get a more in-depth look around). Few things that immediately stood out to me:
-in the Keto for Total Beginners section they claim in big, bold letters that keto is the most effective weight loss diet. Then, in smaller letters they go on to say it 'may' be the best way, based on one randomized study. So right away red flags are going off for me because they're intentionally being misleading. The rest of that section is also full of false claims and misinformation. Not off to a good start here
Also, nowhere in this section is there any talk about vegetables. Literally-nothing. So, that's raising more red flags because if keto is about having plates half full of veggies, I'd think it would be discussed in the 'start here' section of the site, which tells what the plan is about?
I then checked out the Macros section, nope-nothing about veggies there either.
Finally found a mention of vegetables in the Hidden Carbs section. It says that vegetables are an important part of any diet (first it's being mentioned on their website though), and then goes on to give a list of vegetables you must not eat, sigh....
Finally get to the veggies in the What Carbs Can You Have section. However, while they say you can have large amounts of low carb veggies, the list they provide has a grand total of SIX different kinds of veggies.
At this point everything I had previously thought about keto was confirmed, but I did spend a few more minutes browsing the sites recipe section. The recipes pictures speak for themselves-there is absolutely NO emphasis on veggies, half plates or otherwise. A few recipes incorporated broccoli or cauliflower but yeah, not seeing anything that's pointing to veggies being a focal point.
Now that's just one keto site and I'm sure someone will say it's not giving accurate info on how to do keto. However, it claims to have over 3 million subscribers, so obviously there's people following their information.
Anyways, I do appreciate the link and it was interesting to look into the nuts and bolts of keto a bit more
Yes, that's not a great website. If you're interested in investigating further, I really like the Diet Doctor website. I'm a medical professional as well and I like their evidence based medicine approach, in fact I told a patient about their visual guides today:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
Having a look at this, I'm more a moderate low-carber than a ketoer anyway:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-low-carb-is-low-carb
I hope the OP finds those two links useful as well.
Anyway, I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread and it's why I don't tell anyone (off the internet that is
that I do keto. Rather I just mention plant based protein and avoiding sugar, which no one ever seems to have a problem with haha.
5 -
@zeejane03 Thanks for the feedback. Good that you`re looking into things thoroughly. Like I said there are a million other resources you can check to educate yourself. There are also medical professionals who recognize certain health benefits of following Keto. The OPs doctor for eg. Perhaps you can look at some of those resources too.
I use the site to track my food for the reasons I stated in my previous post. I know people who have been successful in weight loss & other health benefits of Keto and so I got information from their research and have read lots of articles. If you`re looking for a "recommended" amount of veg intake, the only recommendation is not to go over your carb allowance, but you can spend it all on vegetables if you wish, but will get more bang for your buck if you choose those with minimal carbs. I`m not certain what recipes you`re looking at, but I`ve seen tons with veggies..zuccini boats, spaghetti squash, roasted radishes, brussel sprout chips & on & on.
It doesn`t have to be a "lifestyle" change in the sense of eating strict Keto forever. My daughter is planning on reintroducing more carbs at some point, but doing it gradually over a period of time and settling on a lower carb plan, but not on being Keto low forever.
Like I said in my previous post, it isn`t for me, but for those who can be disciplined to do the clean version of Keto all the more power to them. My goal is to keep sugar, processed foods & wheat products out of my diet and the carbs I eat to be from veggies & limited fruit, so lower carb intake is what I`m shooting for.
Hoping the best for you in your search.
1 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
If you find that you're getting painted by a brush that paints people you identify with (keto) consider that either you need the wherewithal to accept that brush, or don't identify with that group. If the keto label has too much baggage and you find how it is used is different from your understanding, you may want to just talk about your diet plan and not calling it keto. Otherwise, at some point all you're doing is arguing semantics, and eventually dictating to one another wheat each of you has to mean to use a word like keto, and people tend to find those conversations unproductive until at least one party drops the their definition and both parties use just one.
And there are definitely people in the more specialized keto diets who are "carnivores" and try to avoid eating anything plant based, including vegetables:
What part of "I tried Keto for 4 days, I`m NO expert" is unclear? I am not identifying with Keto by saying I tried it for 4 days. and after I made that as clear as mud, obviously, I did talk about my low carb diet plan.
Thanks for the tips tho. and the reference to the Carnivore FB page...might come in handy some day LOL!! 4 -
I went keto about 4 years ago to address prediabetes and autoimmune issues. It fixed my BG, greatly improved my AI symptoms and made weight control quite easy. The lower carb I go, the better I feel.
Ketosis is under 20-50g of carbs a day. That can include a lot of vegetables or none. It leaves a fair bit of room to make a diet that suits you.4 -
Shadioutwo wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
Ok, had some time to look through that site (I even set up an account so I could get a more in-depth look around). Few things that immediately stood out to me:
-in the Keto for Total Beginners section they claim in big, bold letters that keto is the most effective weight loss diet. Then, in smaller letters they go on to say it 'may' be the best way, based on one randomized study. So right away red flags are going off for me because they're intentionally being misleading. The rest of that section is also full of false claims and misinformation. Not off to a good start here
Also, nowhere in this section is there any talk about vegetables. Literally-nothing. So, that's raising more red flags because if keto is about having plates half full of veggies, I'd think it would be discussed in the 'start here' section of the site, which tells what the plan is about?
I then checked out the Macros section, nope-nothing about veggies there either.
Finally found a mention of vegetables in the Hidden Carbs section. It says that vegetables are an important part of any diet (first it's being mentioned on their website though), and then goes on to give a list of vegetables you must not eat, sigh....
Finally get to the veggies in the What Carbs Can You Have section. However, while they say you can have large amounts of low carb veggies, the list they provide has a grand total of SIX different kinds of veggies.
At this point everything I had previously thought about keto was confirmed, but I did spend a few more minutes browsing the sites recipe section. The recipes pictures speak for themselves-there is absolutely NO emphasis on veggies, half plates or otherwise. A few recipes incorporated broccoli or cauliflower but yeah, not seeing anything that's pointing to veggies being a focal point.
Now that's just one keto site and I'm sure someone will say it's not giving accurate info on how to do keto. However, it claims to have over 3 million subscribers, so obviously there's people following their information.
Anyways, I do appreciate the link and it was interesting to look into the nuts and bolts of keto a bit more
Yes, that's not a great website. If you're interested in investigating further, I really like the Diet Doctor website. I'm a medical professional as well and I like their evidence based medicine approach, in fact I told a patient about their visual guides today:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
Having a look at this, I'm more a moderate low-carber than a ketoer anyway:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-low-carb-is-low-carb
I hope the OP finds those two links useful as well.
Anyway, I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread and it's why I don't tell anyone (off the internet that is that I do keto. Rather I just mention plant based protein and avoiding sugar, which no one ever seems to have a problem with haha.
I would be careful with some of Dr. Fungs information. He certainly isn't a researcher and a some of this "evidence" actually isn't supported. His whole piece where CICO is disproved is not supported by metabolic ward studies. The fact that he compares the bodies response to a piece of fish and veggies vs a cookie shows a lack of dietary understanding. It completely removes diet context.
Also, the fact that he promotes Growth Hormone, during fasting, as means that it's going to protect muscle mass, is wrong. GH increases during fasting as it is linked to fatty acid mobilization. Additionally, the transient increase in GH doesn't go outside physiological ranges. And even so, GH is associated with increases in LBM (i.e., water weight and connective tissue), not cross sectional muscle mass. No one gets jacked because they fast. Muscle is created under stress and tension and when you have greater amounts of protein synthesis vs protein breakdown.
Overall, I think Lyle McDonald has better and more realistic advice than Dr. Fung. But I also tend to shy away from medical doctors who give advice on dieting since they aren't specifically trained or educated.9 -
lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
4 -
sabrinaconner1975 wrote: »What is your opiniin of the Keto Diet? My doctor wants me to follow it and she is actually doing the same diet. We discussed it extensively and came to the understanding that if I find issues with it, WE will work together to find whats good for me. I suffer from IBS and the "salad" core of Keto may not work well with my system. Just asking for pros and cons and possible tips! Thanks in advance!!
First questions, then tips- As the "salad core of Keto" is unfamiliar to me and others on this thread, would you please share any links or handouts your doctor gave you?
- Did your doctor warn you to increase your fats gradually?
- Did she give you a protein target?
- Did she let you know what to do to prevent "keto flu"?
5 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
Yep, there's keto/carnivore advocates here who have posted that vegetables are bad for you, fiber is bad etc.
6 -
janejellyroll wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
Yep, there's keto/carnivore advocates here who have posted that vegetables are bad for you, fiber is bad etc.
The claim isn't that fiber is bad, is that it's unnecessary.2 -
Sometimes it's that it's bad, causes digestive issues.
It does, of course, for some, but not generally -- typically problems with fiber are due to existing health issues.0
This discussion has been closed.
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