Keto Diet
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lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
Ok, had some time to look through that site (I even set up an account so I could get a more in-depth look around). Few things that immediately stood out to me:
-in the Keto for Total Beginners section they claim in big, bold letters that keto is the most effective weight loss diet. Then, in smaller letters they go on to say it 'may' be the best way, based on one randomized study. So right away red flags are going off for me because they're intentionally being misleading. The rest of that section is also full of false claims and misinformation. Not off to a good start here
Also, nowhere in this section is there any talk about vegetables. Literally-nothing. So, that's raising more red flags because if keto is about having plates half full of veggies, I'd think it would be discussed in the 'start here' section of the site, which tells what the plan is about?
I then checked out the Macros section, nope-nothing about veggies there either.
Finally found a mention of vegetables in the Hidden Carbs section. It says that vegetables are an important part of any diet (first it's being mentioned on their website though), and then goes on to give a list of vegetables you must not eat, sigh....
Finally get to the veggies in the What Carbs Can You Have section. However, while they say you can have large amounts of low carb veggies, the list they provide has a grand total of SIX different kinds of veggies.
At this point everything I had previously thought about keto was confirmed, but I did spend a few more minutes browsing the sites recipe section. The recipes pictures speak for themselves-there is absolutely NO emphasis on veggies, half plates or otherwise. A few recipes incorporated broccoli or cauliflower but yeah, not seeing anything that's pointing to veggies being a focal point.
Now that's just one keto site and I'm sure someone will say it's not giving accurate info on how to do keto. However, it claims to have over 3 million subscribers, so obviously there's people following their information.
Anyways, I do appreciate the link and it was interesting to look into the nuts and bolts of keto a bit more
Yes, that's not a great website. If you're interested in investigating further, I really like the Diet Doctor website. I'm a medical professional as well and I like their evidence based medicine approach, in fact I told a patient about their visual guides today:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
Having a look at this, I'm more a moderate low-carber than a ketoer anyway:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-low-carb-is-low-carb
I hope the OP finds those two links useful as well.
Anyway, I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread and it's why I don't tell anyone (off the internet that is
that I do keto. Rather I just mention plant based protein and avoiding sugar, which no one ever seems to have a problem with haha.
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@zeejane03 Thanks for the feedback. Good that you`re looking into things thoroughly. Like I said there are a million other resources you can check to educate yourself. There are also medical professionals who recognize certain health benefits of following Keto. The OPs doctor for eg. Perhaps you can look at some of those resources too.
I use the site to track my food for the reasons I stated in my previous post. I know people who have been successful in weight loss & other health benefits of Keto and so I got information from their research and have read lots of articles. If you`re looking for a "recommended" amount of veg intake, the only recommendation is not to go over your carb allowance, but you can spend it all on vegetables if you wish, but will get more bang for your buck if you choose those with minimal carbs. I`m not certain what recipes you`re looking at, but I`ve seen tons with veggies..zuccini boats, spaghetti squash, roasted radishes, brussel sprout chips & on & on.
It doesn`t have to be a "lifestyle" change in the sense of eating strict Keto forever. My daughter is planning on reintroducing more carbs at some point, but doing it gradually over a period of time and settling on a lower carb plan, but not on being Keto low forever.
Like I said in my previous post, it isn`t for me, but for those who can be disciplined to do the clean version of Keto all the more power to them. My goal is to keep sugar, processed foods & wheat products out of my diet and the carbs I eat to be from veggies & limited fruit, so lower carb intake is what I`m shooting for.
Hoping the best for you in your search.
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magnusthenerd wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
If you find that you're getting painted by a brush that paints people you identify with (keto) consider that either you need the wherewithal to accept that brush, or don't identify with that group. If the keto label has too much baggage and you find how it is used is different from your understanding, you may want to just talk about your diet plan and not calling it keto. Otherwise, at some point all you're doing is arguing semantics, and eventually dictating to one another wheat each of you has to mean to use a word like keto, and people tend to find those conversations unproductive until at least one party drops the their definition and both parties use just one.
And there are definitely people in the more specialized keto diets who are "carnivores" and try to avoid eating anything plant based, including vegetables:
What part of "I tried Keto for 4 days, I`m NO expert" is unclear? I am not identifying with Keto by saying I tried it for 4 days. and after I made that as clear as mud, obviously, I did talk about my low carb diet plan.
Thanks for the tips tho. and the reference to the Carnivore FB page...might come in handy some day LOL!! 4 -
I went keto about 4 years ago to address prediabetes and autoimmune issues. It fixed my BG, greatly improved my AI symptoms and made weight control quite easy. The lower carb I go, the better I feel.
Ketosis is under 20-50g of carbs a day. That can include a lot of vegetables or none. It leaves a fair bit of room to make a diet that suits you.4 -
Shadioutwo wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »aishmartin wrote: »
Where are you getting this from? There's a million keto posts on the forums and this is the first time I've seen someone say this (along with the salad comment above). From everything I've read about keto there's no vegetable requirement-it's a way of eating that focuses on being at a very low carb intake, which then by default eliminates most vegetables and fruit. Once in a while someone will mention leafy greens but then if they go into more detail it's a pretty minimal amount.
eta: I'm genuinely curious to know where you've seen veggies being emphasized on a keto diet (half a plate). One of my biggest hang-ups about keto is that it cuts back/eliminates vegetables and fruit, so if there's a keto plan out there that somehow incorporates them in bigger amounts, I'd be very interested in reading more about it
Tried Keto for 4 whole days & decided it's too labor intensive to try to balance 20g% carb with the allowance of fat/protein/calorie intake so I decided to do a low carb version which is more doable for me personally .
If you go on the CarbManager (CM) site you can educate yourself...aside from a million other Keto sites. Not sure what you mean by "there's NO vegetable requirement" but there is a common-sense requirement if you want to maintain health which includes vegetables that are lower carb, leafy greens, broccoli, cauliflower & the like..there is a clean version of KETO (which includes healthy carbs and fats) or the dirty version (which is higher saturated fats eg bacon & carbs from processed foods rather than fruit & veg)
I didn't like the severe restrictions re: most fruits, aside from berries and because MOST foods have some amount of carbs, I found it very difficult to have some type of balance nutritionally while staying within such a restricted carb allowance..
Anyway, I picked a low carb, moderate protein, high fat ratio (12% ~ 48g carbs/25% ~ 101 g protein/63% ~113g fat) on CM and track all my food on there. The levels are calculated for you based on your preferences. More effective than using MFP because you can track net carbs & on CM and it calculates your ratio of macro nutrients on a pie chart so at a glance you can see your levels.
Anyway, hope this helps...I am NO expert, but found that site to be very helpful...hope you check it out.
The thing is, you're going to get a million & one opinions from those who know & those who don't...even those in the know have varying opinions, so like anything else, you need to adapt to what is doable for you...there's no magic bullet! There's no "one size fits all".
I'd be interested to see what you think of Carb Manager. Take Care.
Ok, had some time to look through that site (I even set up an account so I could get a more in-depth look around). Few things that immediately stood out to me:
-in the Keto for Total Beginners section they claim in big, bold letters that keto is the most effective weight loss diet. Then, in smaller letters they go on to say it 'may' be the best way, based on one randomized study. So right away red flags are going off for me because they're intentionally being misleading. The rest of that section is also full of false claims and misinformation. Not off to a good start here
Also, nowhere in this section is there any talk about vegetables. Literally-nothing. So, that's raising more red flags because if keto is about having plates half full of veggies, I'd think it would be discussed in the 'start here' section of the site, which tells what the plan is about?
I then checked out the Macros section, nope-nothing about veggies there either.
Finally found a mention of vegetables in the Hidden Carbs section. It says that vegetables are an important part of any diet (first it's being mentioned on their website though), and then goes on to give a list of vegetables you must not eat, sigh....
Finally get to the veggies in the What Carbs Can You Have section. However, while they say you can have large amounts of low carb veggies, the list they provide has a grand total of SIX different kinds of veggies.
At this point everything I had previously thought about keto was confirmed, but I did spend a few more minutes browsing the sites recipe section. The recipes pictures speak for themselves-there is absolutely NO emphasis on veggies, half plates or otherwise. A few recipes incorporated broccoli or cauliflower but yeah, not seeing anything that's pointing to veggies being a focal point.
Now that's just one keto site and I'm sure someone will say it's not giving accurate info on how to do keto. However, it claims to have over 3 million subscribers, so obviously there's people following their information.
Anyways, I do appreciate the link and it was interesting to look into the nuts and bolts of keto a bit more
Yes, that's not a great website. If you're interested in investigating further, I really like the Diet Doctor website. I'm a medical professional as well and I like their evidence based medicine approach, in fact I told a patient about their visual guides today:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/vegetables
Having a look at this, I'm more a moderate low-carber than a ketoer anyway:
https://www.dietdoctor.com/how-low-carb-is-low-carb
I hope the OP finds those two links useful as well.
Anyway, I agree with a lot of what has been said in this thread and it's why I don't tell anyone (off the internet that is that I do keto. Rather I just mention plant based protein and avoiding sugar, which no one ever seems to have a problem with haha.
I would be careful with some of Dr. Fungs information. He certainly isn't a researcher and a some of this "evidence" actually isn't supported. His whole piece where CICO is disproved is not supported by metabolic ward studies. The fact that he compares the bodies response to a piece of fish and veggies vs a cookie shows a lack of dietary understanding. It completely removes diet context.
Also, the fact that he promotes Growth Hormone, during fasting, as means that it's going to protect muscle mass, is wrong. GH increases during fasting as it is linked to fatty acid mobilization. Additionally, the transient increase in GH doesn't go outside physiological ranges. And even so, GH is associated with increases in LBM (i.e., water weight and connective tissue), not cross sectional muscle mass. No one gets jacked because they fast. Muscle is created under stress and tension and when you have greater amounts of protein synthesis vs protein breakdown.
Overall, I think Lyle McDonald has better and more realistic advice than Dr. Fung. But I also tend to shy away from medical doctors who give advice on dieting since they aren't specifically trained or educated.9 -
lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
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sabrinaconner1975 wrote: »What is your opiniin of the Keto Diet? My doctor wants me to follow it and she is actually doing the same diet. We discussed it extensively and came to the understanding that if I find issues with it, WE will work together to find whats good for me. I suffer from IBS and the "salad" core of Keto may not work well with my system. Just asking for pros and cons and possible tips! Thanks in advance!!
First questions, then tips- As the "salad core of Keto" is unfamiliar to me and others on this thread, would you please share any links or handouts your doctor gave you?
- Did your doctor warn you to increase your fats gradually?
- Did she give you a protein target?
- Did she let you know what to do to prevent "keto flu"?
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janejellyroll wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
Yep, there's keto/carnivore advocates here who have posted that vegetables are bad for you, fiber is bad etc.
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janejellyroll wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
Yep, there's keto/carnivore advocates here who have posted that vegetables are bad for you, fiber is bad etc.
The claim isn't that fiber is bad, is that it's unnecessary.2 -
Sometimes it's that it's bad, causes digestive issues.
It does, of course, for some, but not generally -- typically problems with fiber are due to existing health issues.0 -
I've tried keto before doing the high-fat part, and all it did was cause digestive distress. When I cut down on the fat, I was constipated. YMMV.1
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janejellyroll wrote: »lorrainequiche59 wrote: »@janejellyroll Where in my comment did I state that carbohydrates are what's making people fat and they need to be strictly limited for weight loss? Nor did I say carbs are dangerous. If you are making a general statement based on opinion developed from what you've "read somewhere" then please do not quote me and mix in your opinion with what I wrote.
I think you need to re-read my post. I`m not an expert nor am I promoting Keto. I`m speaking from my personal perspective regarding my limited experience trying Keto for 4 entire days. The restrictive vegetable allowance is why I opted out of following it and chose a low carb eating plan as opposed to restrictive one. To ME it IS "common sense" to include a variety of vegetables to maintain a healthy eating plan. I did not say those strictly adhering to the Keto plan would agree with me. I am not speaking for the Keto community nor advocating for them.
The Ketogenic diet was developed to help children with seizures so it has medical evidence that it has other health benefits besides weight loss. Some are reduced blood pressure, cholesterol and food cravings among other things. The OP stated that her doctor recommended Keto to her because she herself is following it. So there`s some food for thought, hmmmm?
Anyway, "to each his own". I know why I came on this thread, but am curious why you did if you are so against Keto.
PS ~ Zero Carbohydrate diet??? Really???
I didn't say *you* said that, but "carbohydrates are what make you fat" is a common message among proponents of keto (and it's something I've seen frequently here from posters). I've also seen people say that carbohydrates are "dangerous" or "poison." Again, I'm not talking about your comments, I'm talking about the general statements made by many advocates of keto.
To you, it is "common sense" to include vegetables. But if someone is being told that carbohydrates are "poison," it may not be "common sense" to eat vegetables regularly.
I don't know that it particularly matters why I'm on this thread, but if you really want to know it's because I enjoy discussing nutrition (which is what we're doing here). I hope that's okay.
Yes, "zero carbohydrate" is a thing. There's a whole community for it on reddit, as well as some fairly prominent people who claim to have adopted such a diet. There are even a couple of posters here who are either zero carbohydrate or almost zero carbohydrate, so that's something to keep in mind when we're thinking that it's "common sense" for everyone to eat vegetables.
Yep, there's keto/carnivore advocates here who have posted that vegetables are bad for you, fiber is bad etc.
The claim isn't that fiber is bad, is that it's unnecessary.
Thanks for the clarification, I should have worded my post differently 0 -
I am one who is nearly carnivore - I drink coffee and have some plants once or twice a week.
I agree that the "fibre is unnecessary " is a valid argument for people not eating carbs.
Fibre helps with getting the nutrients you need from the bacteria that feed on the fibre, but those nutrients are readily available in animal products. Fibre helps those with IR by slowing the BG spike that comes with carbs too. I think for people eating carbs, including fibre is quite beneficial. For those who eat very few carbs or none, we do not need a digestive aid nor the nutrients that bacteria can make in the gut.
Vegetables and fruits can be healthful but there is no evidence that shows they are more nutritious or healthful than animal products. (Except for the rare few with problems like too much iron or a meat allergy - one off cases that are not the norm.) They can be included in a healthy diet but they are not necessary, just like vegans can create a healthy diet without animal products, with some attention to supplementation.7 -
I found this article today that explains (much better than I ever could) how fibre can be beneficial to a diet, and why it may be less beneficial for those on a whole foods ketogenic diet.
https://blog.virtahealth.com/fiber-colon-health-ketogenic-diet/
The article comes from virta which has a lchf for treating metabolic disease (mainly t2d) so it may have a low carb bias. It was written rather fairly though, imo.4
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