Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
“Large” Restaurant Customers need special accommodation?
Replies
-
Samquentin wrote: »I've been on both sides. I was a size 26 (313 lbs), now am a size 2 (142 lbs).... at 313 I couldn't fit into regular booths, and always asked for a table. now at 142, the booths I could fit in at 313, are uncomfortable for me now, as I am SO FAR AWAY from the table.
Yes! We go to a few places where I have to sort of perch on the edge of the booth seat to be close enough to the table to eat. If I sit back, or even sit normally, the table is just way out there. I'll drop all my salad in my lap!2 -
lleeann2001 wrote: »
I appreciate your comment so much! Maybe not enabling heavy people WILL give.them incentive to change. But then there will always be those who think they can be 300 PLUS POUNDS AND STILL BE healthy...? Isnt that another thread around here somewhere??...🌹
Knowing that I didn’t ‘fit’ in many places, and having people stare at me and mock me, did not give me incentive to change. I’d been fat since early childhood, I’d tried and been failed by a hundred different diets, and I’d lost all hope and belief that I could change.
It did make me hate myself to the point of self-harm and being suicidal, though. Do you think that’s a good thing?38 -
I think everyone should be free to do/think what they want and not control what other people do/think.
Restaurants can do whatever they think makes a profit, be that accommodating overweight people or not.
Likewise, overweight customers shouldn't expect businesses to make special exceptions for them. If you don't like it, go somewhere else21 -
onemanpeloton wrote: »I think everyone should be free to do/think what they want and not control what other people do/think.
Restaurants can do whatever they think makes a profit, be that accommodating overweight people or not.
Likewise, overweight customers shouldn't expect businesses to make special exceptions for them. If you don't like it, go somewhere else
Yep. If you don't care for the way a restaurant (or any business, for that matter) treats you, don't go there. They are not obligated to conform to any standard other than those set for recognised disabilities or discrimination laws.11 -
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/feb/23/truth-world-built-for-men-car-crashes
(Sorry to whoever posted this article first, I messed up the quotes trying to delete inbedded quotes.)
I work in the crash test industry and I found this article interesting. It does have many truths related to crash testing and dummies, but some of the information is certainly biased. For instance, as stated in the article the standard female dummy is based on the male, but it has many significant differences to generate an accurate biofidelic response which are omitted from the article.7 -
Knowing that I didn’t ‘fit’ in many places, and having people stare at me and mock me, did not give me incentive to change. I’d been fat since early childhood, I’d tried and been failed by a hundred different diets, and I’d lost all hope and belief that I could change.
It did make me hate myself to the point of self-harm and being suicidal, though. Do you think that’s a good thing?
I wonder why someone (2 someones) would "woo" this? Just wow.10 -
onemanpeloton wrote: »I think everyone should be free to do/think what they want and not control what other people do/think.
Restaurants can do whatever they think makes a profit, be that accommodating overweight people or not.
Likewise, overweight customers shouldn't expect businesses to make special exceptions for them. If you don't like it, go somewhere else
Yep, I'm 6'2". There are several movie theaters in my community I won't go to due to poor legroom. The ones that have decent (for me) leg room get my business.4 -
I wonder why someone (2 someones) would "woo" this? Just wow.
I was wondering the same thing.4 -
I was wondering the same thing.
I've been woo'd elsewhere for wishing someone a speedy recovery from hospital. *shrug*2 -
I've been woo'd elsewhere for wishing someone a speedy recovery from hospital. *shrug*
Wow! I guess I shouldn't read much into it then. I've seen some here where it appears woo is used based on the poster and not what was posted. That's too bad. This is a peaceful debate forum for the most part. Spiteful woos just undermine that.
edit: Love that avatar by the way lol.4 -
Me too. Best-case scenario is they have a very different idea of what 'woo' means to me.
I was wondering the same thing.
8 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Me too. Best-case scenario is they have a very different idea of what 'woo' means to me.
Me too...1 -
HeliumIsNoble wrote: »Me too. Best-case scenario is they have a very different idea of what 'woo' means to me.
Just read through this thread and tbh I've always thought "woo" was cheering someone on/being excited about a post, like "woo, you got this" it "woo, go you!" Why would mfp include mean reactions when they don't even have a down vote button?2 -
VictoriaTuel wrote: »
Just read through this thread and tbh I've always thought "woo" was cheering someone on/being excited about a post, like "woo, you got this" it "woo, go you!" Why would mfp include mean reactions when they don't even have a down vote button?
It's not "mean," it's an attempt to give forum users a chance to identify what they think is misinformation.
Plenty of people still use it in the sense of cheering someone on.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »
It's not "mean," it's an attempt to give forum users a chance to identify what they think is misinformation.
Plenty of people still use it in the sense of cheering someone on.
Oh okay, so it is being used (by some) as a down vote essentially. I guess I should clarify my woos from now on....or just stay away from that button to be safe/avoid confusion. Thanks!4 -
onemanpeloton wrote: »I think everyone should be free to do/think what they want and not control what other people do/think.
Restaurants can do whatever they think makes a profit, be that accommodating overweight people or not.
Likewise, overweight customers shouldn't expect businesses to make special exceptions for them. If you don't like it, go somewhere elseTheRoadDog wrote: »
Yep. If you don't care for the way a restaurant (or any business, for that matter) treats you, don't go there. They are not obligated to conform to any standard other than those set for recognised disabilities or discrimination laws.
I'm not sure how meany people read the full article? The article and the people in it weren't saying that restaurants should be required to do this by law. It covered primarily 2 things.
1. That restaurant designers often unintentionally design restaurants that are unaccommodating to obese people, often because they are not obese themselves and don't consider it. And there are a few simple actions they could take that would make seating more accommodating for obese people that would make obese people more likely to eat at their restaurant.
2. This woman created an app that got some backing and is currently being tested in Portland where obese people can review and identify restaurants that are accommodating/non-accommodating and then use that as a dining guide so they can frequent more accommodating restaurants and have a more enjoyable time. Therefore they are doing exactly what people are suggesting, which is going to where they are treated better and not going to where they are not. It's up to the restaurants if they care enough about their business or not to make accommodations.
24 -
I was wondering the same thing.
1 = maybe an error. 3 = doubtful its an error. I think some people are very strong in their belief that shaming works and don't like to hear otherwise.10 -
Knowing that I didn’t ‘fit’ in many places, and having people stare at me and mock me, did not give me incentive to change. I’d been fat since early childhood, I’d tried and been failed by a hundred different diets, and I’d lost all hope and belief that I could change.
It did make me hate myself to the point of self-harm and being suicidal, though. Do you think that’s a good thing?
nope2 -
@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
38 -
wel! said4
-
I’m not sure what I think on this subject. In the past at size 28 I have been so large that certain seats didn’t fit me comfortably and I could barely squeeze into a booth, so I’m familiar with the feeling. I know also that it was completely within my control to lose weight - but also that it wasn’t easy and that life happens and that I had other priorities and needs at the time. Even if it were reasonable to expect all obese people to lose weight, which it’s not, it simply won’t happen. Fat people exist and are not going to stop existing, so if you believe in being nice to people, which I do, you are going to need to be nice to some fat ones. That means giving them a comfortable place to sit.
In practical terms restaurants will do what benefits the bottom line. Which means if a large number of diners require larger seats, those seats will become available. I have noticed that most booths seem to be getting deeper.
I have a friend who once weighed 650 lbs (he weighs less now, since his obesity nearly killed him and in the hospital the dietician did not cater to his wants, and he lost a huge amount of weight due to being unable to get the volume of food he preferred). This kind of massive obesity is definitely a disability. As an outsider looking in, I can’t pretend to understand how someone gets to this point or what kind of mental state is behind it - he required frightening amounts of food every day to stay as big as he did, and when he lost his ability to be mobile, he also lost weight because no one was willing to feed him that amount of food. To me his behavior doesn’t look like a controlled decision, it looks like a type of mental illness. However, I am not an expert and don’t know. I do know that it’s not my job to judge him, just to be a friend.
My friend was aware of the inability of most places to accommodate him. He always carried his own chair because a normal chair would break - at the movies he would set it in the aisle. At restaurants he would pull it up to the edge of a table or booth. It wasn’t a problem because he took responsibility for his own needs and provided for them.
He felt, and I believe I agree, that it’s not reasonable to expect all places to provide for the needs of such a small minority of people. Compare this to, say, allergies - a lot of people are allergic to peanuts, so food manufacturers are careful about listing them in the ingredients. I know a guy who is deathly allergic to peppers. Very few people are, so peppers are not listed under common allergens on menus. It’s reasonable to expect restaurants to provide for a wide variety of customers, but should not be expected for them to have accommodations ready for very rare situations.10 -
It's interesting to me that this type of experience used to be seen as a source of personal shame, and now it's a reason for offense at others, because they have not accommodated the size of the person.17
-
FWIW, this past Sunday evening I responded to a medical emergency call (genius accidentally shot himself in the leg). He was morbidly obese, to put it mildly. It was bad enough that it took an entire team of EMT's to get him onto the stretcher, but the BIG PROBLEM was it took over an hour to get a hospital that was WILLING & ABLE to FLY him out by chopper because he was TOO HEAVY FOR THE MEDICAL HELICOPTERS that were immediately available. So, yeah, it's not that big of an issue for a restaurant owner to purchase a chair that accommodates a heavier/larger person; that's simply scaling up a bit to make someone comfortable. But when you're talking equipment that costs hundreds of thousands of dollars (not even considering the newer ambulances, stretchers, etc that have to accommodate larger people) that is ready-to-go at the drop of a hat...where does it end?
Also, to take this in an entirely different direction - my dad's whole side of the family is WAY above average in height. My FEMALE cousin was 6'2" by the time she turned 16. Should all women's stores/clothing lines/shoes/etc be required, or even expected, to accommodate someone who is in the 1% in terms of those dimensions? I owned a car (Mazda Miata) when I was much younger and my dad literally could not get into the vehicle without his knees pressed fully against the dash and his head against the roof.15 -
manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
I never blamed the world when I couldn't fit into certain seats, I just chose places where I could fit just like I choose certain clothing brands now over others because they flatter my post weight loss body better. I'm not asking for brands to design specifically for people who have lost a lot of weight, but it feels nice when something fits. The inconvenience of having to try things on more than the average person does not motivate me to regain weight, it is what it is.
Entitlement is not really the issue here. The problem is that we're talking utopia because ideally, people would not be morbidly obese. The reality is completely different. Some people are morbidly obese either by choice or because they lack the skill set needed to control weight. Not taking them into account when choosing a design will not change that and may not be the best business decision. For every person the inconvenience may motivate to lose weight there will be another person who sinks deeper into it using the only self-comfort mechanism they know - eating.
A person's body is something dear and personal. It remains dear even if it goes out of style or becomes socially undesirable. It's not just something you do, it's something you are, so the issue is more complicated than smoking or shoulder pads. It requires compassion and understanding, not a knee-jerk reaction or even petty.
I didn't think the article was unreasonable. It did not demand changes, but it tried to spread awareness that an issue exists because not everyone realizes they can do better for their customers. What establishment owners choose to do is entirely up to them, and in no way are they required to do anything.16 -
manderson27 wrote: »@ceiswyn I am really sorry that your experience made you hate yourself and want to take your own life. That is awful, but we are not talking here about people insulting obese people or shaming them that is a whole different debate.
Restaurants are not shaming people by using average seating they are just being practical. What we are debating is how far should business go to cater for obese people? If we provide larger and larger seating in public places it is normalising obesity. It is sending the message that it's ok you don't need to change we will cater for you. We will work around you and make the world easier for you to access so there is no need to worry about your weight anymore, after all there are so many more obese people now it is the new norm.
It is not because the chairs are too small that you can't sit in them comfortably it is because you are carrying too much fat.
I am sorry if that upsets people but that was the hard truth I had to learn. The world was not to blame for the fact that I had trouble finding clothes, tying my shoes, walking up stairs, sitting in chairs, flying in planes, getting through turnstiles. It was not the worlds job to design things to fit my oversized body.
I came to the conclusion that it would be much easier to change my body to fit the world than to try and change the world to fit my body.
When you are genuinely arguing that obese people shouldn’t have anywhere to sit because that might encourage them to stay obese, then yes, we kind of are talking about shaming them. You’re still just saying ‘let’s make the world really unpleasant and uncomfortable for obese people so they decide not to be obese’.
And what I am saying is that it just doesn’t work that way.
Making the world unpleasant and unwelcoming doesn’t make obese people suddenly discover the physical and mental skills they need to change their lives. For the most part, it just makes them miserable and stressed. Misery and stress are not healthy, and nor do they generally encourage good and healthy decisions.36 -
If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia14 -
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that referenceHeliumIsNoble wrote: »If most people found shame an effective motivator to make positive changes, the majority of people would already be slim. Barring a small minority, people generally didn't aspire to be overweight or obese, and they're definitely not proud of their bodies the way they are. This includes most of the fat-positive bloggers, in my opinion.
And yet, the National Center for Health Statistics estimates that, for 2015-2016 in the U.S., 71.6% of adults aged 20 and over were overweight or obese and according to a WHO study in 2014, 62% of adults in England were classified as overweight or obese.
Clearly making people feel ashamed hasn't worked yet, and it's not going to suddenly start working. I think it might be time to try a new strategy.
Stats taken from wikipedia
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
20 -
Believe me, I know. I'm watching my own government fall apart.Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that reference
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
All the most effective strategies I've ever seen suggested need top-down implementation.
6 -
Maybe a restaurateur or waiter/tress could enlighten me. Is there much call for most restaurants to provide better seating for the obese in terms of increasing footfall? I'm just thinking about how lots of women demanded larger dummies in clothes shops but it's made no difference to sales of larger sizes when it's been implemented. Or how shops don't usually stock clothing above a certain size, or indeed below or for particularly short or tall people but certain lobbies suggest that they should be able to walk into any clothes shop and find clothes literally for ALL sizes (ie just the morbidly obese). Again, this would be a loss to the retailer as it's, at the moment, a minority market. I'm clueless as to the proportion of Americans that are so fat as to require this level of accommodation.4
-
Regarding the bold - without (hopefully) taking the discussion into prohibited territory per forum rules....what if, say...a country had an absolutely awesome, incredible first lady who developed and implemented a program to teach school children about the importance of proper nutrition in an effort to combat obesity, and everyone loved it except the next admin to take power...who cancelled it? No one here ought to miss that reference
The tenuous point I'm trying to make is that we're strategy limited apparently, at the governmental level, and motivationally limited at the personal level...what's next for a strategy?
I do agree with you by the way, strongly. I just see slippery slopes in one direction and steep cliffs in the other. Real change motivators usually need to come from within, or from a source that carries strong enough promise to gain traction.
Politics lies downstream of culture. Attempts to move culture requires persuasion. Government historically uses force to persuade. The Right would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the imagination of the Left. The Left would do well to acknowledge, love, and respect the pragmatism of the Right.
There's a fundamental flaw in governance that assumes that man is good and has good intentions. Good policy presumes human error as fundamental and implements processes of positive reinforcement, ownership, and personal responsibility - all leading to collective responsibility and collective good.11
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 395.1K Introduce Yourself
- 44K Getting Started
- 260.6K Health and Weight Loss
- 176.2K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.7K Fitness and Exercise
- 445 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153.2K Motivation and Support
- 8.2K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.4K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 4.2K MyFitnessPal Information
- 16 News and Announcements
- 1.3K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.9K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions