How do I get 4000+ calories?
Replies
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TavistockToad wrote: »
Very true, although I was hoping for gaining while staying relatively lean. I heard a very good argument from my housemate who does a lot of exercising. He said that I could first gain fast and then get that fat by doing a lot of calories surplus, and then when I have reached the desired weight I should train to get rid of the fat, so then obtaining less calories than that I burn on a day. Does that sound like a solid plan to you guys, or do you advice against it?
Thanks btw for all the responses thus far, I really appreciate it.
That is what most do, but over and over again, bulk and cut cycles1 -
I'm just worried that I'm getting too many fats in if I want to reach my calories goal of 4000. In the end I want to add weight in form of muscle, not fat. You think that's an issue or that I should not worry about that and eat stuff like chorizo, ice cream with nutella, crisps?
Well, fat doesn't convert to fat, so the composition of your caloric intake would not make a difference if you burn it all. The food that your body WILL convert to fat, if you eat too many calories are the carbs. So whether you pack on the muscle or the fat depends on your carb and protein intake and your exercise. The fat can only be converted to energy to fuel your body, so if you eat too much of that, and do not burn the calories, your body will metabolize the carbs to storage (body fat). You do need protein and carbs to build muscle, but you do not want to overdo it, as carbs metabolize fast, and unless you burn all the calories as fast as you eat them, they will get stored. Your body will use fats and proteins first to fuel, as it cannot store them, and if you eat more than it can burn, it will store all the available carbs
You have that completely backwards - dietary fat is what is stored as body fat (in a caloric surplus) precisely because it doesn't need conversion. Your body strives for efficiency.
To convert carbs to fat (de novo lipogenesis) is an inefficient method and is exceedingly rare / extremely limited (in humans).Typically it would need massive and prolonged carb overloading or a glucose IV drip.
Carbs you ingest can be used easily by your cells with little conversion. It's why carbs are seen as the preferential macro for energy use.
OP - fat doesn't make you fat, ditto carbs don't make you fat. An excessive calorie surplus from whatever macro or combination of macros makes you fat.
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Bodybuilders bulk up in the off season, adding a bunch of fat on, but also a bunch of muscle.
Then they spend 6-10 weeks dieting to lose all the fat, while trying to keep the muscle.
Friend of mine is 2 weeks out from his first contest of the year, and really sick of a steady diet of chicken breast and white rice, but the fat is coming off.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »deannalfisher wrote: »SabAteNine wrote: »That's odd, I punched your numbers in a TDEE calculator and I'm not getting anywhere near your reported maintenance number of 3,800 - even with the „very active / athlete” selection for activity.
Since increasing lean mass with minimal fat gain to go along usually means going for a low to moderate surplus, you might not have this problem of needing to reach 4k in the first place. If you are getting the cal burn reading off a wearable or gym machines, be aware that they're notorious for overestimating.
Protein looks good. But what is too many fats in your book? I would also argue on the topic of bad fats but that gets into technicalities.
that just means he's not in a standard deviation - most calculators tell me i need to eat like 1600 to maintian weight and yet i eat 24-2800 cal a day and weight stable (with normal fluctations) - i lose 1-2lbs a week on 1600...
I too think you should aim for much higher than what you burn per day if you really want to gain!
Large calorie surplus equals faster gains, but also more fat gains. You can only build so much muscle in a given time.
You aren't going to stay at 13% BF with a large calorie surplus...you're going to put on a lot of fat. You will also put on fat with a smaller calorie surplus, but not as much and it will be slower.
I do a lot of abs exercises though, every day after the other workout. This burns fat, right? What if I stay at large calorie surplus and burn the fat by doing abs exercises and running in general? Would that work?
You don't have any net fat loss in a calorie surplus. If you're in a calorie surplus, you are anabolic, not catabolic regardless of ab exercises or whatever.
Like I said, this is why bodybuilders do bulking and cutting cycles. They put on muscle mass and also fat mass in a bulk, and when they end their bulk, they cut to get rid of the fat they have accumulated during their bulk. And like I said, the higher your calorie surplus is, the more fat mass you will accumulate during your bulk and the more rapidly you'll accumulate it which will not maximize your bulking phase. You will build muscle slower with a smaller calorie surplus, but you will also accumulate fat slower and stay leaner and extend the length of your bulking cycle.
Being in a hurry here is sub-optimal.2 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.4 -
I'm just worried that I'm getting too many fats in if I want to reach my calories goal of 4000. In the end I want to add weight in form of muscle, not fat. You think that's an issue or that I should not worry about that and eat stuff like chorizo, ice cream with nutella, crisps?
Well, fat doesn't convert to fat, so the composition of your caloric intake would not make a difference if you burn it all. The food that your body WILL convert to fat, if you eat too many calories are the carbs. So whether you pack on the muscle or the fat depends on your carb and protein intake and your exercise. The fat can only be converted to energy to fuel your body, so if you eat too much of that, and do not burn the calories, your body will metabolize the carbs to storage (body fat). You do need protein and carbs to build muscle, but you do not want to overdo it, as carbs metabolize fast, and unless you burn all the calories as fast as you eat them, they will get stored. Your body will use fats and proteins first to fuel, as it cannot store them, and if you eat more than it can burn, it will store all the available carbs
If anything I would try not to overdo fat during a bulk because of how easily they are converted to bodyfat. Carbs on the other hand in a surplus are not as readily converted. Plus lots of carbs are heavensent for lifting performance which is key to optimize muscle gain.6 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
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So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
I wouldn't do that either. Too fast is a recipe for very little muscle gain and lots of fat gain which is not great or productive. And no the higher you are in bodyfat the less optimal muscle gain becomes. That is why people don't bulk indefinitely, they run cuts in between to lean out again.
You want to find the sweet spot. Stay relatively lean but gain at a consistent and comfortable rate. I would say anywhere from 0.5-1lb per week.2 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
If you are bulking fast and gain say 1.5 lbs/week you may gain 0.5lbs muscle and 1 lb fat, but if you have a surplus to gain 0.5lbs/week, 0.25 may be muscle and 0.25 fat, so a larger % of your gain will be muscle, but yes, less muscle overall, if doing it for a short period of time.1 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
I wouldn't do that either. Too fast is a recipe for very little muscle gain and lots of fat gain which is not great or productive. And no the higher you are in bodyfat the less optimal muscle gain becomes. That is why people don't bulk indefinitely, they run cuts in between to lean out again.
You want to find the sweet spot. Stay relatively lean but gain at a consistent and comfortable rate. I would say anywhere from 0.5-1lb per week.
God, why is trying to gain weight while staying lean so goddamn vague
I'll just ask a fitness instructor tomorrow what I should do, because I just need a solid plan of action1 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
I wouldn't do that either. Too fast is a recipe for very little muscle gain and lots of fat gain which is not great or productive. And no the higher you are in bodyfat the less optimal muscle gain becomes. That is why people don't bulk indefinitely, they run cuts in between to lean out again.
You want to find the sweet spot. Stay relatively lean but gain at a consistent and comfortable rate. I would say anywhere from 0.5-1lb per week.
God, why is trying to gain weight while staying lean so goddamn vague
I'll just ask a fitness instructor tomorrow what I should do, because I just need a solid plan of action
It's really quite simple. You won't be able to keep your well defined chiseled 6-pack through your whole bulk, if you are chasing after that then you really won't gain as successfully as you could. I'm not saying you can't stay lean and see abs but you will lose definition and best to accept that vs trying to find a holy grail of some sort!1 -
So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
I wouldn't do that either. Too fast is a recipe for very little muscle gain and lots of fat gain which is not great or productive. And no the higher you are in bodyfat the less optimal muscle gain becomes. That is why people don't bulk indefinitely, they run cuts in between to lean out again.
You want to find the sweet spot. Stay relatively lean but gain at a consistent and comfortable rate. I would say anywhere from 0.5-1lb per week.
God, why is trying to gain weight while staying lean so goddamn vague
I'll just ask a fitness instructor tomorrow what I should do, because I just need a solid plan of action
Gaining and losing comes down to the caloric deficit/surplus, keep in mind that trainers are not experts in diet, even if they try to come off as one!
It isn't that difficult, and adherence is the most important and is what most people struggle with.
All you need to do is follow a well-structured program that is geared towards your goals, eat at a small surplus (set a goal here to gain 0.5 or 1 lb/week), get adequate fat and protein, and plenty of carbs, and stick with it!3 -
If you want more information in bulking and have time there is a great podcast you can find it on YouTube. "Massing Roundtable" by Revive Stronger featuring Mike Israetel and Eric Helms. Very informative.2
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God, why is trying to gain weight while staying lean so goddamn vague
I'll just ask a fitness instructor tomorrow what I should do, because I just need a solid plan of action
If it was easy, none of us would be here working this hard to figure out our own best ways. It takes TIME and CONSISTENCY more than anything else. Any trainer can give you a plan that works, but, generally we want the plan that works most efficiently for our individual needs. Dialing that in is the ultimate challenge and often changes as we progress. Don't get caught up in thinking ANY program will transform you in a short time unless you're already starting from an ideal position. Keep moving forward and keep your goals forefront in your mind and you'll see progress.
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Alright thank you guys for all the info and help, I'm going to try the bulk/cut method, but that means going to the gym anyways, so my main focus is going to be there.
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So there's no way of gaining without adding fat? Seems kind of depressing
You can reduce the amount of fat gain by starting off fairly lean, keeping your surplus smaller and training effectively. However if you are always chasing abs during a bulk it will really limit your progress. I find it best to embrace some loss of definition. Muscle gain is hard, for many fat loss after is the easy part.
Yeah I think the best way for me (and others in my position) is to add weight as fast as possible (large calories surplus and many unsaturated fats) and then after reaching desired weight: eat less calories that you burn on a day to lose the fat that came with the muscles. Correct me if I'm wrong, but having more fat increases your muscle growth as well, right?
Is this the best way to go about it for me?
I wouldn't do that either. Too fast is a recipe for very little muscle gain and lots of fat gain which is not great or productive. And no the higher you are in bodyfat the less optimal muscle gain becomes. That is why people don't bulk indefinitely, they run cuts in between to lean out again.
You want to find the sweet spot. Stay relatively lean but gain at a consistent and comfortable rate. I would say anywhere from 0.5-1lb per week.
God, why is trying to gain weight while staying lean so goddamn vague
I'll just ask a fitness instructor tomorrow what I should do, because I just need a solid plan of action
You'll get better information if you listen to the people on here who have done much bulking/cutting etc.1 -
Not sure what program you are following but here is a good list:
https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
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obviously i don't eat 4000cal a day - but i could easily do it if i wanted with minimal effort - grains (rice, pasta, farro) are goign to be a bang for your buck on calories that are lower fat
while my macros wouldn't work for you - IF i were to increase to 4000cal i would probably do:
carbs - 600g carbs - 2400cal
fat - 98g fat - 882cal
protein - 180g (but this is variable depending on your goal) - 720cal (this protein rec would give you 1.07g/1lb total body weight)
that would give you a macro break down of 60% carb/18% protein/22% fat - but you could easily tweak your fat/protein ratios - depending on your goal weight0 -
I'm just worried that I'm getting too many fats in if I want to reach my calories goal of 4000. In the end I want to add weight in form of muscle, not fat. You think that's an issue or that I should not worry about that and eat stuff like chorizo, ice cream with nutella, crisps?
Well, fat doesn't convert to fat, so the composition of your caloric intake would not make a difference if you burn it all. The food that your body WILL convert to fat, if you eat too many calories are the carbs. So whether you pack on the muscle or the fat depends on your carb and protein intake and your exercise. The fat can only be converted to energy to fuel your body, so if you eat too much of that, and do not burn the calories, your body will metabolize the carbs to storage (body fat). You do need protein and carbs to build muscle, but you do not want to overdo it, as carbs metabolize fast, and unless you burn all the calories as fast as you eat them, they will get stored. Your body will use fats and proteins first to fuel, as it cannot store them, and if you eat more than it can burn, it will store all the available carbs
Such nonsense here. Ignore this one2 -
I guess the post about fat not being stored as fat but just the evil carbs has already been debunked! Woohoo!
To the OP: you have a major problem with the way you define what you're trying to do.
You are NOT TRYING TO GAIN WEIGHT.
You are trying to build muscles.
The two are not the same and you won't magically build muscles by gaining weight (except for a tiny incidental amount to support your new bulkier built which is most certainly not your goal)
You build muscles by abusing your existing ones to the point where they try to get some help in self defense. And you support the muscle building by providing enough nutrients and ENERGY for the synthesis to happen optimally.
So this means you need energy for a good workout, and energy for a good recovery.
This energy availability tends to happen best and most consistently when you're in a caloric surplus.
A caloric surplus tends to have the side effect of weight gain.
Weight gain proves that you are in a caloric surplus--which is why people aim for it--but it doesn't *prove* whether you're building muscle or not.
Chances are that if you're providing the correct stimulus you are building muscle. But chances are that the faster the weight gain the more of it will end up as fat energy reserves as opposed to new muscles!
You are NOT trying to maximize your weight gain. Gaining FAST will not accomplish your goals. Gaining is a side effect, not your actual goal.
[technically and assuming you had sufficient energy stores and provided sufficient stimulus you could increase muscle mass and use energy from your fat reserves to fuel that increase in muscle mass--accomplishing this slower than if you had provided ample energy reserves. The name for this amazing concept nowadays is "recomp". In the past it was usually called "getting in shape"]
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