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Keto diet= good or bad

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  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    psuLemon wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    ekbrwz wrote: »
    For me, any diet that severely restricts a complete food group just can't be sustainable.

    Humans are meant to eat grains, fruits, and vegetables....all of which have carbs.

    I also don't think it would work long-term because at some point you would eventually go off the diet, and just gain all the weight back. Or continue on the diet forever, and you would be deficient in a lot of the vitamins and minerals and fiber that come in those foods you have to eliminate to do keto.

    There are some errors in this.

    Is is sustainable to restrict carbs - a non essential macronutrient. Some prefer not to, and few seem to have problems using fat for fuel for some reason.

    There is no evidence that humans are meant to eat grains and veggies. Fruit is meant to be eaten but perhaps not by people in their current hybridized forms.

    Almost all diets fail long term. Most people do stop their diets. For keto, i believe the virta study shows over an 80% continuation with the diet past 2 years. I've been keto over 4 years. I do have days I don't eat yo my diet, like any diet, but I've used it for longer than most people can maintain a weight loss.

    Another way to look at it, is eating excessive amounts of fat and the elimination of many healthy and beneficial foods sustainable?

    Dietary carbs are non essential but glucose is essential to life. In fact, its so important that our bodies can make it from proteins and fats.

    Trying to make a big deal that dietary carbs are non essential but not pointing out that our bodies only need 11g of alpha linolenic acid, is a bit dishonest. Protein requirements are roughly 30-40g to meet minimal requirements (depends on the amino acid composition). So honestly, if you want to make an argument, than a protein based diet is the biggest benefit.

    In the end, the argument of essential vs non essential is pedantic and should never be part of a discussion. What is more important is what is optimal for the individual. And the health benefits and sustainability of carbs is what has helped me maintain my 50lb loss for 9 years.

    Some people may eat excessive amounts of fat while keto but implying that is required, or even how those who do it long term, is laughable. My only added fats are cream in my coffee and cheese.

    Also, ketosis does not require the elimination of any healthy foods.

    Carbs are non-essential. Our body makes enough. When you cut back on the amount of carbs you eat, you body even down regulated the amount of glucose it uses. Implying one needs to eats carbs is dishonest... Like saying we need to eat blood in order to have blood or we need to eat brains in order to have brains. I never said eating carbs was bad - I said it was non-essential.

    A ketogenic need only be low in carbs to be ketogenic. I'm all for moderate to moderately high protein and getting enough fat without going excessive.

    Avoiding most carbs, and the effects it has on my health, is what allowed me to lose 40lbs and maintain that for a number of years. No one diet fits all.

    I've read claims that by ketoers that one can't have too high of protein or they'll be knocked out of ketosis, so I don't know about carbohydrates being low being the only requirement.

    High protein will often lower your level of ketones but that is not an issue for most unless you need high ketones for a medical reason. The common levels of protein for ketosis are 20-30%. Some go lower and some go higher. I see most people doing somewhere in between 75-150g of protein. Going higher due to athletic demands is not unusual. I tend to be just under 100g on a mostly carnivore diet - I don't enjoy lean meat much.

    But yes, the only requirement of a ketogenic diet is to be in ketosis the vast majority of the time, and eating low carb will do that. Eating a LOT (usually over 200+g) of protein will lower ketones for a while, but that's okay. Constant ketosis is not required. If it was, exercise would be skipped.
    edited April 23
  • WinoGelatoWinoGelato Posts: 13,316Member Member Posts: 13,316Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    ekbrwz wrote: »
    For me, any diet that severely restricts a complete food group just can't be sustainable.

    Humans are meant to eat grains, fruits, and vegetables....all of which have carbs.

    I also don't think it would work long-term because at some point you would eventually go off the diet, and just gain all the weight back. Or continue on the diet forever, and you would be deficient in a lot of the vitamins and minerals and fiber that come in those foods you have to eliminate to do keto.

    There are some errors in this.

    Is is sustainable to restrict carbs - a non essential macronutrient. Some prefer not to, and few seem to have problems using fat for fuel for some reason.

    There is no evidence that humans are meant to eat grains and veggies. Fruit is meant to be eaten but perhaps not by people in their current hybridized forms.

    Almost all diets fail long term. Most people do stop their diets. For keto, i believe the virta study shows over an 80% continuation with the diet past 2 years. I've been keto over 4 years. I do have days I don't eat yo my diet, like any diet, but I've used it for longer than most people can maintain a weight loss.

    I'm just wondering if maybe you and the quoted person are just using meant in a different sense? If one were to say there was no evidence of modern humans having an evolutionary history (what I would take meant as meaning in context) that included eating grains, I'd say the person is misinformed.
    Now if meant were being used as diets having some inherent purpose and meaning, well now that would be odd to me, but sure, we don't have anything we're meant to eat - to me a person has to create their meaning. Usually though, I'd take it that people have some desire for either hedonic pleasure of eating, increasing certain physical traits we'd tend to call health, or maximizing life span. I think we also have at least some evidence grains and vegetables being involved in that.
    Though I'd admit, I don't feel I have a solid principle for what makes something a fruit and something a vegetable in a nutritional sense.

    Fruits have seeds in them an come from the flowers of plants. Technically speaking, legumes, nuts, cucumbers, peppers, squash, olives, avocados, as well as the usual berries, apples, bananas, melons, etc.... as I understand it. Humans may be some of the animals that eat those seed bearing foods.

    Vegetables are stems, leaves, stalks, and storage parts of plants like celery, carrots, mustard plants and their hybrids. They tend to have more defenses and the plants are damaged by being eaten. While some are nutritious, others seem to be able to do some harm to people. TBH I have never seen a study that shows vegetables, or grass seeds, improve a diet by replacing animal products or naturally occurring fruits (not the larger, sweeter hybridized varieties). It's by far a better food choice than highly refined and processed foods, imo.

    They do taste good though. I love cakes, sugars, and some root vegetables. Vegetable fruits are my favourite - love snap peas.

    Yeah, you're quoting the botanical sense of what makes something a fruit. I'm well aware of that, which is why I qualified: in the nutritional sense.
    See, saying a tomato, and particularly a cucumber are fruits isn't going to work in the nutritional sense - you'd get odd looks making a tomato and cucumber fruit salad.
    An even stronger break is when you look at mushrooms - there is no "fungus" category in almost a food / nutrition categorizing system, so they'll be classed as vegetables. But I don't think I would get any odd looks at all to say "here's a vegetable blend" and it includes mushrooms.

    As far as vegetables and grasses for health, well it seems you're now placing an overly exacting definition on what is evidence - that's what you said you weren't aware of before. As you're now saying a study (I think you mean more specifically an RCT or at least CT) with replacement. There are epidemiological studies that show people eating a fair amount of whole grains are healthier than other diets, even diets higher in animal products. My recollection is there is a rather large and significant effect for health outcomes for people eating an average of 400 grams or greater a day of vegetables (it may include fruit in that).

    I'm just choosing the correct use of the terms. Some don't, usually from never learning that.

    I would be interested to read any study that shows replacing animal products (I'm thinking of whole foods here - for both sides) with grains, or even vegetables, is healthier. I've never found one.

    I believe there is a spectrum of nutrition when it comes to food. Some foods are healthier than others. It doesn't mean that the unhealthy foods can't be eaten, or even that they will cause harm to every one (it will not). I do think that they foods that people hold up as the pinnacle of health is based on very little good science and more on dogma. It's unfortunate.

    Sounds like your claim is that a diet of mostly or exclusively animal products is healthier than a vegetarian or vegan diet; and potentially is healthier than one that includes all food inclusive of animals, grains, fruits and vegetables. Or are you just staying there is no study supporting the converse of this, that a diet that includes grains and vegetables is “healthier” than a diet which prohibits them and promotes a high consumption of animal products?

    If this is your claim or belief - what constitutes “healthier”? What would be the parameters that would define the framework of such a study?

    And I’m speaking specifically for the average person who does not have medical reasons (as you do) to limit carbohydrates and grains. What would make one diet “healthier” than another, in your opinion?
  • ultra_violetsultra_violets Posts: 202Member Member Posts: 202Member Member
    An awful lot of food scientists and paleontologists around here. What our ancient ancestors didn't have was processed carbs, unless there was a cave full of frozen pizza and Oreos somewhere. Keto is not a zero carb diet. I don't know anyone who can consume no carbs at all and not die. I eat between 20-30 a day, and they come mostly from vegetables and nuts. As I've found in the past, whatever diet you choose, if you stop adhering to it and go back to eating "normally", you're probably going to gain weight. I would not recommend starting any diet without getting your doctor's approval, as I did. Some people adapt and do very well with keto, and some don't. It's not for everyone. I don't miss the junk. And being a type 2 diabetic, I can't really afford to go back, anyway. The stakes are higher for me. Anyone who is generally healthy aside from being 15-20 lb overweight, I wouldn't necessarily recommend keto.
  • tmpecus78tmpecus78 Posts: 1,234Member, Premium Member Posts: 1,234Member, Premium Member
    [
    I've read claims that by ketoers that one can't have too high of protein or they'll be knocked out of ketosis, so I don't know about carbohydrates being low being the only requirement.

    That is not necessarily true. That might be the cause for a select few, but that is not the written rule for all. I can personally consume a 1g protein per pound of body weight as well as 50-75g fast digesting carbs peri-workout and still stay in ketosis. But I will say that I do train very hard and have more muscle mass then the average keto'er.

  • magnusthenerdmagnusthenerd Posts: 797Member Member Posts: 797Member Member
    tmpecus78 wrote: »
    [
    I've read claims that by ketoers that one can't have too high of protein or they'll be knocked out of ketosis, so I don't know about carbohydrates being low being the only requirement.

    That is not necessarily true. That might be the cause for a select few, but that is not the written rule for all. I can personally consume a 1g protein per pound of body weight as well as 50-75g fast digesting carbs peri-workout and still stay in ketosis. But I will say that I do train very hard and have more muscle mass then the average keto'er.
    I think the conditions NVketomom already described are where it is an issue - people that truly need to be in ketosis for medical reasons - such as epileptics - are the ones that need to hold their protein down.

    Along with your amount of muscle mass, your level of activity means it is unlikely that you have issues with insulin sensitivity. I would also guess you don't have a condition where being shortly out of ketosis will be impactful.
  • Annie_01Annie_01 Posts: 3,115Member Member Posts: 3,115Member Member
    J72FIT wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    An awful lot of food scientists and paleontologists around here. What our ancient ancestors didn't have was processed carbs, unless there was a cave full of frozen pizza and Oreos somewhere. Keto is not a zero carb diet. I don't know anyone who can consume no carbs at all and not die. I eat between 20-30 a day, and they come mostly from vegetables and nuts. As I've found in the past, whatever diet you choose, if you stop adhering to it and go back to eating "normally", you're probably going to gain weight. I would not recommend starting any diet without getting your doctor's approval, as I did. Some people adapt and do very well with keto, and some don't. It's not for everyone. I don't miss the junk. And being a type 2 diabetic, I can't really afford to go back, anyway. The stakes are higher for me. Anyone who is generally healthy aside from being 15-20 lb overweight, I wouldn't necessarily recommend keto.

    There are several keto proponents, one in this thread, who eat a carnivore diet of almost zero carbs. There are also lots of keto proponents who eat a variety of ultra processed foods as part of their low carb diet. To suggest that frozen pizza and Oreos are junk but bullet proof coffee, pepperoni sticks, and pork rinds are somehow fine because they aren’t processed “carbs” seems to be a false dilemma.

    Do you feel that the consumption of any “processed carbs” is inherently unhealthy? Even if it is in moderation and in the context of an overall nutrient dense diet?

    It's interesting to me that frozen pizza and oreos are considered processed carbs...

    What would you consider frozen pizza and oreos? 3 oreos have 25g of carbs and 1g of protein. That's okay if you have the calories or you're not low carb. I would consider oreos (and frozen pizza) to be processed. Not that it's a bad thing...

  • lemurcat2lemurcat2 Posts: 3,320Member Member Posts: 3,320Member Member
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    An awful lot of food scientists and paleontologists around here. What our ancient ancestors didn't have was processed carbs, unless there was a cave full of frozen pizza and Oreos somewhere. Keto is not a zero carb diet. I don't know anyone who can consume no carbs at all and not die. I eat between 20-30 a day, and they come mostly from vegetables and nuts. As I've found in the past, whatever diet you choose, if you stop adhering to it and go back to eating "normally", you're probably going to gain weight. I would not recommend starting any diet without getting your doctor's approval, as I did. Some people adapt and do very well with keto, and some don't. It's not for everyone. I don't miss the junk. And being a type 2 diabetic, I can't really afford to go back, anyway. The stakes are higher for me. Anyone who is generally healthy aside from being 15-20 lb overweight, I wouldn't necessarily recommend keto.

    There are several keto proponents, one in this thread, who eat a carnivore diet of almost zero carbs. There are also lots of keto proponents who eat a variety of ultra processed foods as part of their low carb diet. To suggest that frozen pizza and Oreos are junk but bullet proof coffee, pepperoni sticks, and pork rinds are somehow fine because they aren’t processed “carbs” seems to be a false dilemma.

    Do you feel that the consumption of any “processed carbs” is inherently unhealthy? Even if it is in moderation and in the context of an overall nutrient dense diet?

    It's interesting to me that frozen pizza and oreos are considered processed carbs...

    What would you consider frozen pizza and oreos? 3 oreos have 25g of carbs and 1g of protein. That's okay if you have the calories or you're not low carb. I would consider oreos (and frozen pizza) to be processed. Not that it's a bad thing...

    Most so-called processed carbs are carbs+fat, often more fat than carbs (the case for many foods that get demonized as processed carbs). People are rarely talking about the many nutrient-dense options that include processed carbs, like canned beans, frozen veg, or even a sensible serving of brown rice with lots of veg and some lean protein.
  • Annie_01Annie_01 Posts: 3,115Member Member Posts: 3,115Member Member
    According to the nutrition that I found oreos have 7g of fat. I'm not keto but I would think that 7g of fat vs 25g of carbs is not a great trade off. Maybe...IDK. They taste good...that is all I know.

    As far as pizza one place that I order from for 1 slice of a pepperoni pizza is 10g of fat and 40g of carbs...according to their nutrition facts. Even if the count fat is high so is the carb count. I do a moderation carb (100-150g) and I have trouble fitting it in. If I want pizza I just don't worry about it for that day.

    Maybe I am missing the point that you were trying to make. They are carbs and they are processed. It's kind of like peanut butter...some will call it a protein but it has almost twice as much fat. I personally eat peanut butter for the fat and it tastes good.
  • Annie_01Annie_01 Posts: 3,115Member Member Posts: 3,115Member Member
    lemurcat2 wrote: »
    Annie_01 wrote: »
    J72FIT wrote: »
    WinoGelato wrote: »
    An awful lot of food scientists and paleontologists around here. What our ancient ancestors didn't have was processed carbs, unless there was a cave full of frozen pizza and Oreos somewhere. Keto is not a zero carb diet. I don't know anyone who can consume no carbs at all and not die. I eat between 20-30 a day, and they come mostly from vegetables and nuts. As I've found in the past, whatever diet you choose, if you stop adhering to it and go back to eating "normally", you're probably going to gain weight. I would not recommend starting any diet without getting your doctor's approval, as I did. Some people adapt and do very well with keto, and some don't. It's not for everyone. I don't miss the junk. And being a type 2 diabetic, I can't really afford to go back, anyway. The stakes are higher for me. Anyone who is generally healthy aside from being 15-20 lb overweight, I wouldn't necessarily recommend keto.

    There are several keto proponents, one in this thread, who eat a carnivore diet of almost zero carbs. There are also lots of keto proponents who eat a variety of ultra processed foods as part of their low carb diet. To suggest that frozen pizza and Oreos are junk but bullet proof coffee, pepperoni sticks, and pork rinds are somehow fine because they aren’t processed “carbs” seems to be a false dilemma.

    Do you feel that the consumption of any “processed carbs” is inherently unhealthy? Even if it is in moderation and in the context of an overall nutrient dense diet?

    It's interesting to me that frozen pizza and oreos are considered processed carbs...

    What would you consider frozen pizza and oreos? 3 oreos have 25g of carbs and 1g of protein. That's okay if you have the calories or you're not low carb. I would consider oreos (and frozen pizza) to be processed. Not that it's a bad thing...

    Most so-called processed carbs are carbs+fat, often more fat than carbs (the case for many foods that get demonized as processed carbs). People are rarely talking about the many nutrient-dense options that include processed carbs, like canned beans, frozen veg, or even a sensible serving of brown rice with lots of veg and some lean protein.

    I think you have to look at the ratio of fats to carbs. Don't take me wrong...I eat pizza...I would eat an oreo if I knew I wouldn't eat the whole bag.

    Yes...I know that most food is a combination of macros. If I am watching my carbs however pizza wouldn't be on the menu even if I need some extra fat. I would find a food that had a higher fat content and a lower carb content. The pizza that I order is 40g of carbs and 10g of fat.

    I am not demonizing oreos, frozen pizza nor processed foods but if I want my carbs to stay in the moderate range I can't eat very much pizza.
  • tmpecus78tmpecus78 Posts: 1,234Member, Premium Member Posts: 1,234Member, Premium Member

    I think the conditions NVketomom already described are where it is an issue - people that truly need to be in ketosis for medical reasons - such as epileptics - are the ones that need to hold their protein down.

    Along with your amount of muscle mass, your level of activity means it is unlikely that you have issues with insulin sensitivity. I would also guess you don't have a condition where being shortly out of ketosis will be impactful.

    oh yes, for medical conditions like epileptics or metabolic damage, low protein is necessarily. I was the director of KetoPet Sanctuary and was managing the ketogentic diets for the 25+ dogs we had on site that had cancer. The daily protein consumption was extremely low for most if not all of the dogs as our goal was to keep blood glucose numbers as low as possible.

    I do drift out of ketosis for 36-48 hours a few times a month when I do carb refeeds without any major issues. However I do notice a bit of flareup in my lower back and hips due to arthritis and my lower back being fused.

    edited April 24
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