Impressions on the internet
Replies
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While I don't disagree that cisgender men and boys typically have it "easier" in some ways than cisgender women and girls, I think that it's counterproductive to not talk about the fact that some men and boys face serious body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. I think not talking about it also serves as just one of many ways to perpetuate the idea that men and boys shouldn't express or have emotions that aren't in the neighborhood of "mad" or "happy" (note - I don't think you're consciously trying to do this). That being vulnerable is not ok, that it is not masculine (because apparently you have to have masculine traits to identify as male...), that it makes you weak, etc. I also don't think that talking about this takes away from discussing issues surrounding eating disorders and body image in women and girls, especially given the sheer lack of resources and discussion despite the very clear and present issues (never mind that things like men not being able to be vulnerable affects women).pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
The article "Eating Disorders in Men: Underdiagnosed, Undertreated, and Misunderstood" by Strothers et. al (2012) is worth at least skimming and it appears to be open access - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479631/ From the end of the summary:Finally, encouragement of a culture which allows for male vulnerability is a major goal. Men are not supposed to be emotionally vulnerable in our present culture, yet they encounter pressures on a daily basis to be more muscular and meet the current male body shape ideals. This is deleterious for many men as they feel pressure from many sources to meet mainstream society's definition of masculine. Also, men are not supposed to be focused on how they look, so why would they reveal body image or weight concerns?
Here's another article by Räisänen and Hunt, "The role of gendered constructions of eating disorders in delayed
help-seeking in men: a qualitative interview study" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/4/e004342.short (it's also open access, if you want to read the full article click the PDF link on the right). And before people start dismissing qualitative studies - they're are extremely useful. A quote from this article,Many presented late in their illness trajectory when ED behaviours and symptoms were entrenched, and some felt that opportunities to recognise their illness had been missed because of others’ lack of awareness of EDs in men. In addition, the men discussed the lack of gender-appropriate information and resources for men with EDs as an additional impediment to making sense of their experiences, and some felt that health and other professionals had been slow to recognise their symptoms because they were men.
I don't disagree with any of this, and I don't think eating disorders in men should be ignored or glossed over and they are something to be handled respectfully within the conversation. I guess I just felt like the posts I was responding to were not that.11 -
Dismissing all women (and men) who have had cosmetic surgery as being "unreal" is not realistic or kind. Many, many people on this website have openly admitted to having cosmetic surgery; including the OP. It seems sort of like the pot calling the kettle black...15
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While I don't disagree that cisgender men and boys typically have it "easier" in some ways than cisgender women and girls, I think that it's counterproductive to not talk about the fact that some men and boys face serious body image issues and suffer from eating disorders. I think not talking about it also serves as just one of many ways to perpetuate the idea that men and boys shouldn't express or have emotions that aren't in the neighborhood of "mad" or "happy" (note - I don't think you're consciously trying to do this). That being vulnerable is not ok, that it is not masculine (because apparently you have to have masculine traits to identify as male...), that it makes you weak, etc. I also don't think that talking about this takes away from discussing issues surrounding eating disorders and body image in women and girls, especially given the sheer lack of resources and discussion despite the very clear and present issues (never mind that things like men not being able to be vulnerable affects women).pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
I'm honestly not sure if this is trolling or not? While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things. He's not the first obese heavyweight champ by a long shot. Heck, there's a whole genre of television/movies which is basically boiled down to "obese man gets skinny girl". King of Queens, every Seth Rogen movie, etc.
Society allows men to be defined by more than strictly their weight by being "the funny one" or "the smart one" while it doesn't seem to afford the same opportunities to women. So I don't think we should be trying to "whataboutmen" into this conversation.
ETA:
It's not some "surreal place called a mans world where they think they look better than they do" it's just that society allows men to still have bodily value when they have a less than perfect body type while it does not afford the same courtesy to women.pierinifitness wrote: »@MelanieCN77 - I beg to differ with your comment and add that men are men and women are women. I think he'll have an impact in the man's world, a surreal place where many men think they look better than they do, just toss on a bigger jersey of your favorite NFL team and you're good to go for another 10 yards. Women, different story.
The article "Eating Disorders in Men: Underdiagnosed, Undertreated, and Misunderstood" by Strothers et. al (2012) is worth at least skimming and it appears to be open access - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3479631/ From the end of the summary:Finally, encouragement of a culture which allows for male vulnerability is a major goal. Men are not supposed to be emotionally vulnerable in our present culture, yet they encounter pressures on a daily basis to be more muscular and meet the current male body shape ideals. This is deleterious for many men as they feel pressure from many sources to meet mainstream society's definition of masculine. Also, men are not supposed to be focused on how they look, so why would they reveal body image or weight concerns?
Here's another article by Räisänen and Hunt, "The role of gendered constructions of eating disorders in delayed
help-seeking in men: a qualitative interview study" https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/4/4/e004342.short (it's also open access, if you want to read the full article click the PDF link on the right). And before people start dismissing qualitative studies - they're are extremely useful. A quote from this article,Many presented late in their illness trajectory when ED behaviours and symptoms were entrenched, and some felt that opportunities to recognise their illness had been missed because of others’ lack of awareness of EDs in men. In addition, the men discussed the lack of gender-appropriate information and resources for men with EDs as an additional impediment to making sense of their experiences, and some felt that health and other professionals had been slow to recognise their symptoms because they were men.
I don't disagree with any of this, and I don't think eating disorders in men should be ignored or glossed over and they are something to be handled respectfully within the conversation. I guess I just felt like the posts I was responding to were not that.
I was primarily responding to: "While body issues are certainly a major issue for both men and women, and men can certainly feel societal pressure to look a certain way, I honestly don't feel like we get it nearly as bad as women do, who are bombarded non-stop by media judgments about how they are supposed to looks (which includes "not too skinny" in addition to "skinny enough"). Men don't regularly face the same things."
I didn't intend on writing as long of a reply as I did, but this is me - we shouldn't be surprised
Also the second article that I posted is really good. You, among other people, should totally read it in full. 2 -
texasredreb wrote: »Dismissing all women (and men) who have had cosmetic surgery as being "unreal" is not realistic or kind. Many, many people on this website have openly admitted to having cosmetic surgery; including the OP. It seems sort of like the pot calling the kettle black...
Yeah and she admitted to letting social media influence her which was the point of the thread.
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seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
Perhaps so, but I think the underlying point is that certain celebrities make a maximum effort to appear on social media in ways that cast them in the most favorable (unrealistic) physical light, and they have plenty of (professional) people helping them do that.
Whether photoshop was the specific tool used to create the unrealistic, artificial public image . . . seems kind of trivial in the big picture.
I agree with the point about not shaming people for plastic surgery or even for a carefully curated unrealistic image . . . the image part of it. People can look how they look, and display that as they will. But when in comes to the impact on some of the young women whom the celebs are intentionally trying to manipulate for profit (as it seems in some celebs' cases) . . . well, I question the ethics involved, I guess.7 -
seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
Perhaps so, but I think the underlying point is that certain celebrities make a maximum effort to appear on social media in ways that cast them in the most favorable (unrealistic) physical light, and they have plenty of (professional) people helping them do that.
Whether photoshop was the specific tool used to create the unrealistic, artificial public image . . . seems kind of trivial in the big picture.
I agree with the point about not shaming people for plastic surgery or even for a carefully curated unrealistic image . . . the image part of it. People can look how they look, and display that as they will. But when in comes to the impact on some of the young women whom the celebs are intentionally trying to manipulate for profit (as it seems in some celebs' cases) . . . well, I question the ethics involved, I guess.
That's what I see as the OPs intent to get out there, which may be getting lost a bit in the course of the discussion.4 -
rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
I've been thinking about this overnight. I think if a person deliberately makes themselves a product by shaping a body and an ideal through whatever means and tries to sell it to you via products and services as achievable, they're asking you to judge and to respond with your wallet. Pointing out that certain people doctor their photos and have used surgery out of the reach of the average person isn't any kind of shaming in my opinion, and might actually be a positive piece of news for someone who doesn't know how very edited and curated all their deliberate material is.
In daily life, body judging is something we all do to some extent. How we correct ourselves is important. For the record, unless directly asked, I think the entire world would get on just fine if nobody commented on anybody's physical appearance, ever.4 -
The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.9 -
seltzermint555 wrote: »I dunno. I feel like some of those examples are more camera angles and lighting and posing than photoshop. Maybe I'm just being naive to think that?
But I look at those first several examples more like "bad angle, good angle" examples. Kind of like all those "pretty girls making ugly faces" challenges a few years ago.
I'm not speaking about the larger issues with body image and cosmetic surgery and representing an unrealistic ideal...but just these kinds of "good pic, bad pic" with the same person on the same day. I know I can appear in photos on vacation where I look a good 30 lb lighter or heavier depending on the angle and pose. I have a friend who takes selfies from that above-her-head position MySpace scene kid style and she looks like a tiny cartoon girl with huge eyes thanks to filters to make her look younger, catlike, whatever. In real life, she looks nothing like that and is plus sized. I think more and more, people are expecting these unrealistic pictures and starting to realize they aren't reality...because they have become like the new normal.
I showed this one to my graphic designer. It is definitely photoshopped. She looks way skinnier, her breasts are higher and tighter (although that could be because she was jumping), her skin is smoother, and she was stretched.
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This is such a personal subject that it's always going to bring emotions to the top and may be the reason the thread got snippy quite quickly. I wasn't going to comment but I changed my mind
I have a 19 yo daughter and 20 yo son and over the last 6-8 years I've seen my fair share of them trying to keep up with the latest items and unfortunately that's also included something mid-teens didn't have to think about 10 or so years ago - cosmetic surgery. Some of their friends look so different with contoured faces and now a night out for the girls (not exclusively though) includes a spray tan, fake lashes, make up salon, hair salon, fake nails etc. It's naturally fallen for some of them to have eyebrows tattoo'd on to save drawing them each day. I'm not into face tattoo's but these are different and very socially accepted. To the point that they're often part of a birthday present
Last summer my daughter went to Ibiza with her friends and the prep for the holiday was insane. She asked me what I thought about lip fillers and I said I wasn't keen as from the side I think there's the tell tale duck pout going on. Well she only asked me as she was getting it done that day! I did call her Daisy for a few days When they'd calmed down she was delighted with them and said she felt she was ready for Ibiza. That was huge for me and for the time she was away I couldn't stop thinking about how sad it is that having cosmetic surgery is now expected.
I'm 42 and don't dye my grey streaks - I call them highlights - in my long brown hair and don't wear make up often. I thought I was 'natural' but I'm not. We're all vain to a certain degree. We do our best to make sure we're wearing clean clothes that fit, our hair is clean and we smell nice. We do our best with what we have. That also applies to our home, car, holidays etc. I know a few under 30's who regularly have botox and say they know they don't have wrinkles now but they're preventing them from starting in the first place(!).
I do things my nan & grandad think are far too vain. I pluck my eyebrows, I wear make up for an occasion, I go to the hair salon & I use moisturiser. Now the younger generation have more options than we did at their age and we don't always agree that it's progress.
There will always be extremes and the tabloids love the before and after pics to shame people. I'm not sure people have surgery and then pretend they didn't look different before. My whole body is currently undergoing the biggest and quickest change it's had since puberty - weight loss. I've had comments from people about how my appearance has changed and how well I'm doing. Am I dismissing those appearance compliments? No chance, they're keeping me going when the peanut butter is shouting me.
I don't know what to do about the poor body image these fake social media celebs are advertising. They put as much thought & money into their skin, hair, teeth etc that an ad exec would do for the packaging of a multi-million pound product. Cos that's what they are. I think it's our issue to support vulnerable people to understand Insta isn't real life.
Just away to take my face pack off .....
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MelanieCN77 wrote: »rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
I've been thinking about this overnight. I think if a person deliberately makes themselves a product by shaping a body and an ideal through whatever means and tries to sell it to you via products and services as achievable, they're asking you to judge and to respond with your wallet. Pointing out that certain people doctor their photos and have used surgery out of the reach of the average person isn't any kind of shaming in my opinion, and might actually be a positive piece of news for someone who doesn't know how very edited and curated all their deliberate material is.
In daily life, body judging is something we all do to some extent. How we correct ourselves is important. For the record, unless directly asked, I think the entire world would get on just fine if nobody commented on anybody's physical appearance, ever.
Well, the few people on some threads here who complain because no one has yet complimented them on their weight loss - they'd be seriously P.O.-ed even longer.
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Well I guess they don’t have to worry about being recognized IRL; doesn’t even look like the same person 😳1
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alondrakar wrote: »The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.
Good luck with that! All of her friends will likely have cell phones in a year or two (if they don't already).
I would much rather my daughter have supervised access to the internet in an environment where healthy discussion is encouraged, than have her get her forbidden 'fix' and 'information' in the schoolyard or at a friend's house. Denying her access to something that her peers have is pretty much guaranteed to backfire on you. 11 -
I guess I just fell off the turnip truck but this has been fascinating, particularly that reddit link. I had no idea people did this. I feel rather sorry for them that they feel like they need to.3
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pierinifitness wrote: »Three cheers to the new heavyweight boxing champion, Andy Ruiz Jr., and the impact he’ll have on making everyone think about questionable body appearance.
Had to look up some measurements on the guy. Given his 36 in waist at 6'2' and 262 lbs he's pretty much a unicorn. The typical guy that height and weight is rocking a 42 inch plus waist, 30% bodyfat and in training for a heart attack.
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@rickiimarieee you should have started this topic in chit chat. Would have been funny to see who could post the best “ in real life vs photoshop” meme 😜1
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@rickiimarieee you should have started this topic in chit chat. Would have been funny to see who could post the best “ in real life vs photoshop” meme 😜
Go lose yourself in that Reddit thread. It's a bounty.5 -
@MelanieCN77; you can go lose yourself in photoshop. Sounds like you have a guilty conscience 😉4
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40 years ago at my first gym membership in Golds Venice Beach, I was admiring my 14" biceps. The bodybuilder across the room called out to me, "Mirrors lie". That was when I decided my goal was health, not looks. I never did get my biceps past 14", but Ruiz, Jr will testify that size don't matter...lol0
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@MelanieCN77; you can go lose yourself in photoshop. Sounds like you have a guilty conscience 😉
Excuse me? I meant go browse it and enjoy.4 -
What am I missing?2
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@MelanieCN77; my apologies; I took “lose” out of context.2
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God forbid you show wrinkles.
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rickiimarieee wrote: »The Kardashian’s are queens of photoshop and plastic surgery!
While I appreciate the sentiment of this thread, I don't think shaming anybody's looks, including people for allegedly getting plastic surgery, is particularly helpful or body positive.
I’m not at all judging for plastic surgery because I myself have had plastic surgery. I had excess skin cut off after weight loss. What I’m saying is young girls are very impressionable by this kind of thing and it’s unhealthy for women to be posting these kinds of unrealistic body standards. Most of them are photoshop. Photoshop is mainly what I have the problem with because these girls (myself have been through it) have starved themselves, worked out Day in and day out because we have these unrealistic body standards to live up too. If you’re gonna photoshop yourself don’t post it on social media where you influence young girls and boys.6 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »alondrakar wrote: »The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.
Good luck with that! All of her friends will likely have cell phones in a year or two (if they don't already).
I would much rather my daughter have supervised access to the internet in an environment where healthy discussion is encouraged, than have her get her forbidden 'fix' and 'information' in the schoolyard or at a friend's house. Denying her access to something that her peers have is pretty much guaranteed to backfire on you.
I agree with the post this was directed towards. My step son has been asking for a phone since he was 5. WHICH IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Like why would you need a phone? But we got him an IPAD instead and it backfired on us TREMENDOUSLY. We took it away and haven’t let him back on the internet and everything is soooo much better. His behavior and such has improved drastically. Now when he gets a little older and more mature I won’t deny him the chance to try internet again but kids aren’t in the right mindset below teens to be encouraged by teverything on the internet.5 -
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rickiimarieee wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »alondrakar wrote: »The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.
Good luck with that! All of her friends will likely have cell phones in a year or two (if they don't already).
I would much rather my daughter have supervised access to the internet in an environment where healthy discussion is encouraged, than have her get her forbidden 'fix' and 'information' in the schoolyard or at a friend's house. Denying her access to something that her peers have is pretty much guaranteed to backfire on you.
I agree with the post this was directed towards. My step son has been asking for a phone since he was 5. WHICH IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Like why would you need a phone? But we got him an IPAD instead and it backfired on us TREMENDOUSLY. We took it away and haven’t let him back on the internet and everything is soooo much better. His behavior and such has improved drastically. Now when he gets a little older and more mature I won’t deny him the chance to try internet again but kids aren’t in the right mindset below teens to be encouraged by teverything on the internet.
My sons who are 12 and 10 had phones since they were 6 and 8.
Why do they need a phone? To contact myself or another adult in the event of a emergency. A peace of mind to know where exactly they are when we aren't in the same vincinity. To communicate with each other and I can literally see what they are up to.
Even when I'm in a different part of the world I'm still on that azz doing homework with them thru video chat.
It's how alot of kids these days interact with other for fun now like tiktok. I have the upmost trust in my sons and I won't deprive them of fun life experiences out of fear that something bad may happen.
I think once, my oldest told me all excitedly "did you know you can quickly charge your phone by putting it in the microwave?" I just gave him a stern look and say "boy I wish you would, watch what happens"
That was that 😆
That only thing that sucks with kids and phones is that they are so clumsy and careless with them. Cracked screens is a constant source of agitation in my house.
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.BasedGawd412 wrote: »rickiimarieee wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »alondrakar wrote: »The biggest eye opener for me was when I went to Europa (fitness expo) and meeting all these girls I admired on Instagram. They looked incredibly different than their pictures online. It was a great lesson learned for me, as I had tried very hard to look like them for a large portion of that year.
My daughter is almost 7 and I have made it a mission to not allow her on social media until she is maybe 15-16.
Good luck with that! All of her friends will likely have cell phones in a year or two (if they don't already).
I would much rather my daughter have supervised access to the internet in an environment where healthy discussion is encouraged, than have her get her forbidden 'fix' and 'information' in the schoolyard or at a friend's house. Denying her access to something that her peers have is pretty much guaranteed to backfire on you.
I agree with the post this was directed towards. My step son has been asking for a phone since he was 5. WHICH IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. Like why would you need a phone? But we got him an IPAD instead and it backfired on us TREMENDOUSLY. We took it away and haven’t let him back on the internet and everything is soooo much better. His behavior and such has improved drastically. Now when he gets a little older and more mature I won’t deny him the chance to try internet again but kids aren’t in the right mindset below teens to be encouraged by teverything on the internet.
My sons who are 12 and 10 had phones since they were 6 and 8.
Why do they need a phone? To contact myself or another adult in the event of a emergency. A peace of mind to know where exactly they are when we aren't in the same vincinity. To communicate with each other and I can literally see what they are up to.
Even when I'm in a different part of the world I'm still on that azz doing homework with them thru video chat.
It's how alot of kids these days interact with other for fun now like tiktok. I have the upmost trust in my sons and I won't deprive them of fun life experiences out of fear that something bad may happen.
I think once, my oldest told me all excitedly "did you know you can quickly charge your phone by putting it in the microwave?" I just gave him a stern look and say "boy I wish you would, watch what happens"
That was that 😆
That only thing that sucks with kids and phones is that they are so clumsy and careless with them. Cracked screens is a constant source of agitation in my house.0 -
I'm so glad that I don't know any of these women posted here, nor do I have the desire to find out what they are famous for. I gladly also don't compare myself with others. I only compare myself with myself with whatever I do: learn to play guitar, sports, yes also weight (face looks better with a few lbs more, etc). Just wanted to say I find it really sad that people do
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