I'm not really sure what's happening

Tolstolobik · June 2019

Maxematics wrote: »

NovemberSkye wrote: »

If you are no longer counting and eating based on hunger, my guess is you are under eating. You've said you don't eat when you are stressed or anxious or have a lot going on. Perhaps refocus on your nutrition along with the exercise break. Consciously eat 2000+ (I'd say more like 2500 calories based on your activity level) for a few weeks and see how you are feeling. (If the thought of this makes you cringe because, ugh, possible weight gain, I'd again urge you to see an eating disorder therapist).

Not being able to see your body how it really looks (which you've stated you can't) is another classic eating disorder symptom called body dysmorphia.

Lots of positive thoughts going your way as you work through this all.

Thanks but I'm positive I'm definitely not undereating anymore. Also weight gain in and of itself doesn't make me cringe. It's eating in a 1000+ calorie surplus daily that worries me because rapid weight gain will result in more fat gained than muscle which isn't ideal and that's the supposed surplus I was having most days until I stopped logging. Just like slow, sustainable weight loss is best, bulking slowly is optimal for body composition.

I don't think you need to hit a X number of calories every day...you are not recovering from anorexia. Your organs are not at risk. You unintentionally/or even intentionally underate and now you need to eat more until your hunger normalizes and your energy levels get better. It sounds to me like you are listening to your hunger closer and not denying it. Try to truly kick back this weekend... maybe even take off your Fitbit?! Hugs.

dmt4641 · June 2019

It sounds like you want to increase your weight slowly and add muscle instead of fat to get back to a healthy weight. However it seems that the issue is that your body doesn’t like this body fat percentage so you need to gain some more fat not muscle. Adding mostly muscle will just decrease your bf % even further and the process will be too slow. You don’t just need added weight, you need some added fat.

psychod787 · June 2019

dmt4641 wrote: »

It sounds like you want to increase your weight slowly and add muscle instead of fat to get back to a healthy weight. However it seems that the issue is that your body doesn’t like this body fat percentage so you need to gain some more fat not muscle. Adding mostly muscle will just decrease your bf % even further and the process will be too slow. You don’t just need added weight, you need some added fat.

Well... in a lean bulk she will gain fat and muscle. Just at a slower pace. I was once worried about fat cell hyperplasia. If weight is gained slowly, it's most likely not going to happen. As Layne Norton says, "just dont eat like an @hole." OP, I have had to learn that SOME bf is healthy. Sometimes our leanest weight is not always our BEST weight. I hope you find your path.

Phirrgus · June 2019

Maxematics wrote: »

NovemberSkye wrote: »

If you are no longer counting and eating based on hunger, my guess is you are under eating. You've said you don't eat when you are stressed or anxious or have a lot going on. Perhaps refocus on your nutrition along with the exercise break. Consciously eat 2000+ (I'd say more like 2500 calories based on your activity level) for a few weeks and see how you are feeling. (If the thought of this makes you cringe because, ugh, possible weight gain, I'd again urge you to see an eating disorder therapist).

Not being able to see your body how it really looks (which you've stated you can't) is another classic eating disorder symptom called body dysmorphia.

Lots of positive thoughts going your way as you work through this all.

Thanks but I'm positive I'm definitely not undereating anymore. Since my hunger levels have been intense over the past few weeks not logging helps me eat more since I'm not focused on numbers or feeling guilty. Even if I rough count, my dinner and snack at night are 1500 alone. I'm not weighing in but will do so after my next cycle. Also weight gain in and of itself doesn't make me cringe. It's eating in a 1000+ calorie surplus daily that worries me because rapid weight gain will result in more fat gained than muscle which isn't ideal and that's the supposed surplus I was having most days until I stopped logging. Just like slow, sustainable weight loss is best, bulking slowly is optimal for body composition.

@Maxematics how are you feeling today? A little better I hope. I just wanted to chime in for support and to just touch on something that may or may not be relevant, so I'll say right up front Please forgive me if I'm off base here. I'm not assuming anything...just tossing this out there as food for thought.

You strike me as very intense, emphasis *very* regarding your fitness and weight. A little while ago @JBanx256 (Jen help me out here please!) shared something that spoke about obsession with muscle building, weight etc, that wandered into unhealthy territory, and I have known a couple of folks who fell into that catagory.

Tying it into your post that I quoted - "focused on number or feeling guilty" raised a flag for me, so i just wanted to ask, when is the last time you had an honest to goodness rest? Time off from work, time off from all the walking and work stress, time off from stressing about gaining a few lbs and riding yourself about your weight and appearance..?

Again, forgive me if I'm off here, like I said, just food for thought. We don't have to be intense 100% of the time 24/7/365. A solid break from everything can be a wonderful thing.

Tolstolobik · June 2019

I see my post received a couple of "woos". I apologise if I offended anyone. I was trying to be helpful.

dmt4641 · June 2019

A slow lean bulk would make more sense once your body normalizes and stops gasping for food and having a level of soreness and tiredness beyond what is normal. Trying to continue to tightly control your body when it is in revolt from too much movement and too little food seems counterproductive at this time. Once your level of hunger normalizes and your body is ready for the type of heavy training required to gain muscle, a lean bulk makes more sense. Also possibly not cutting after the bulk is done and maintaining a slightly higher body fat percentage is probably a good idea to prevent this in the future.

New_Heavens_Earth · June 2019

Noreenmarie1234 wrote: »

AnnPT77 wrote: »

I hear where people are coming from with the overtraining idea, and it's a great thing to consider. I do worry a little when I see people told (at varying amounts of exercise) that they're "working out too much" or "doing too much cardio" or that sort of thing. Overtraining is very individual, very context-specific. What would be overtraining for me if repeated for days (let alone weeks) would be a big sequence of rest days for national team (Olympic) athletes in my sport.

I think that overtraining is a good thing to consider in OP's scenario, and there are markers (like an increase in resting heart rate) that sometimes occur when overtraining, that are useful inputs. Whether overtraining in a technical sense or not, when facing persistent fatigue, a rest/recovery break could be a good thing to try purely on speculation; If it's not excessively long (to the point of materially detraining), there's no real downside.

I'd point out, though, that OP says "I've been working out consistently for years and I'm pretty fit." While that doesn't mean her current routine is definitively no problem, it does imply that her threshold for overtraining (i.e., what constitutes "a lot of exercise" or "too much exercise") will differ from what it would be for those among us who've more recently become active.

My main point in commenting is not to dissuade OP from considering this, because it's a good thought. It's more to make sure we're not collectively painting a picture (for others reading) where there's some absolute level of exercise frequency/intensity/duration that's inherently "overtraining". Quite low amounts of exercise can be "overtraining" for beginners; on the flip side, routines that would be impossible for regular folks to do for a day, are fine for elite athletes to do for weeks at a time.

Moreover (of course), the context can make a normal routine have an overtraining effect for an experienced person, so the stress, sleep limitations, possible undiagnosed nutrition issues, etc., can contribute to an overtraining outcome.

Apologies for the digression.

I don't know about this. If you talk to many people who have been over exercisers and been in the same situation as OP. They were very active for years, but after so long, it does take a toll on your body. I know numerous people who were runners (at a healthy weight) and were burnt out by age 30. They had been running 70+ miles a week for enjoyment, but that kind of exercise for years and years while under-eating (even if maintaining) can have effects. I am not saying you are wrong, but I am just saying that I've seen people who were as active as OP for years have similar long term effects and be in the same situation.

I can testify to the effects of overtraining. I've been tearing myself apart physically and mentally.

My CPK (muscle breakdown enzyme) is abnormally high. My knees are both arthritic, one worse than the other. I have right shoulder impingement. Add all this on top of fibromyalgia. I'm in chronic pain and constantly in and out of doctors offices.

Mentally I'm frustrated. Time, money, mental energy spent. You'd think I'd be at goal by now but no. I get very hungry and frustrated and binge. My supervisor said it this way: "You've been a bigger person, now a smaller person. Are you scared that one missed workout will send you back to where you started? You need to rest some and acknowledge your accomplishments." And she was right, I am scared of losing control, but in a way I already have.

OP, if you haven't sought help please do. You've done well to get to where you are now, but tearing yourself down won't help. Balance in all things. Love and nurture yourself. Hugs.

psychod787 · June 2019

dmt4641 wrote: »

A slow lean bulk would make more sense once your body normalizes and stops gasping for food and having a level of soreness and tiredness beyond what is normal. Trying to continue to tightly control your body when it is in revolt from too much movement and too little food seems counterproductive at this time. Once your level of hunger normalizes and your body is ready for the type of heavy training required to gain muscle, a lean bulk makes more sense. Also possibly not cutting after the bulk is done and maintaining a slightly higher body fat percentage is probably a good idea to prevent this in the future.

This is true. There is NO shame in putting on some rapid weight. I think OP and I are on the same trail, just riding different ponies. Several options stick out to me.

1. Do nothing. Things might change. Con: Most likely won't though.
2. Put on some rapid weight. It might help quickly. Con: It might change your body composition in a way you see as too negative and start a severe restrict cycle.
3. Lean bulk. It allows you to gain weight slower and possibly control body composition better. Con: It might draw out your suffering.

Any option is acceptable, it's only up to you to decide what you want and what you are willing to deal with.

**edit** wanted to add OP I am not quite as active as you, but I DO feed myself. 6'3" Male 180lbs. Intake 3500-4000 calories on a lean bulk.

Maxematics · June 2019

As always, thank you to anyone who responded. I must preface my response to emphasize that I truly am grateful for every single reply even if I disagree with it. That being stated, I feel like the main point has been lost and/or some of the information I've provided has been glossed over or possibly ignored. Granted my response posts have been long, as I am replying to many posters at once in them, so it's definitely understandable.

I have never intentionally undereaten. I try to follow my hunger cues and during times of extreme stress I lose my appetite. It's hard to force yourself to eat when your nerves are shot and you may regurgitate the food anyway; that's a waste of food. Usually a few days later I'd be hungrier and that would make up for it. When tracking food, I always tried my best to make sure by the end of the week I was as close to breaking even as possible. Sometimes it didn't happen, sometimes it did, and sometimes I was over. What I never did was deny myself food when hungry.

I am, and have been, following my crazy hunger for weeks now. I have not tracked my food since June 1st. I always eat until I'm satisfied, even if it means I just ate 2000 calories in one sitting. However, I don't really see how some people cannot fathom why continued habits like that are problematic and/or a cause for concern. Very few people here would want to see their progress undone. Do I care if I gain a few pounds now? Absolutely not, as the few pounds I lost were unintentional. Did I hope that my appetite would quell so I can just eat at maintenance? Yes. I don't want to have a loss of appetite but I don't want uncontrollable hunger either; neither extreme is appealing to me.

Yes, I am diligent about making sure I exercise and eat well. I'm a numbers person; I've always been obsessed with numbers since I was a child. I was always good at math, got a math degree, teach math; it's hard not to think about numbers! That's why not counting calories or weighing in is such a huge leap of progress for me in and of itself. Years back, I used to use those TDEE tracker spreadsheets and weight projection sheets, several at a time, to pinpoint my TDEE. "Cheat" meals and my menstrual cycle made that more difficult than it should be. I would get stressed out by outliers in my data and finally convinced myself to just breathe. That was also a big step so I'm a lot more lax than I used to be regarding all of that. I'm not a "clean" eater, I allow myself to order food when I'm in the mood and just estimate the calories to the best of my ability without getting as hung up about the water weight after. Like @psychod787 said, I just don't allow myself to "eat like an a-hole".

Since this post six days ago, I have been feeling a lot better. Aside from my usual movement in commuting, working, running errands, etc. I have done no formal exercise since Monday morning. I kept that promise to myself and it doesn't bother me that I haven't exercised. The 10K plus steps daily won't change unless I'm sick, really exhausted, on vacation or, well, dead, since I have many things that need to get done daily. It's been nice to just relax when I wake up in the morning and have extra time. I know for certain I have been eating well. I have incorporated vitamin B12 and D in the morning. I still do not plan on logging my food and I do plan to weigh in after my next cycle which, according to my Fitbit and Ptracker should hopefully be here within the next two days. Regardless of the number I see, I have zero plans to cut any of the weight I may have gained. The weigh in is more about "Oh okay, I've been eating whatever I want for weeks and my hunger has normalized, which has lead me to xyz weight. Let's try to make this the bottom of my maintenance weight range."

My sleep still needs some work, but I've almost been hitting seven hours now according to my Fitbit which I don't take as gospel truth. The air conditioner I now have has made my apartment much cooler instead of the furnace it was which helps immensely. My last day of work before summer vacation is Monday which should help as I won't have a to-do list on my brain. I still have work to do over the summer but at least I can do it from home and have two months to do it rather than two hours. I still have some soreness in my glutes/hips but other than that, I'm not sore. I've been stretching daily at least and plan on foam rolling today. I'm definitely trying to hone in on the self-care thing this weekend and from now on. I will admit I hold myself to high standards but not just about my physique. I wouldn't call myself a perfectionist, as I know perfection is an impossible task, but I do put my all into everything I do no matter how inconsequential. I try to remain cognizant that my actions are a representation of who I am so I should always put in my best effort. That's the way I've always been but I've learned to put less pressure on myself as the years have passed.

Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to my post. I truly do appreciate every response and have taken all of them into consideration.

Maxematics · July 2019

I figured I'd update this post as it's been a month, things have changed, and my experience may help others with similar issues.

I had a doctor's appointment on 6/27 and got my blood test results back yesterday. I made sure I avoided taking any vitamins for over a week prior to my visit so that I could see if I had any deficiencies. Everything was perfect according to the doctor.

Prior to my visit, my hunger levels did return to normal and I shot up from 109 pounds to 117 pounds within three weeks. I'm now sitting at around 115.5 pounds which is more than fine with me. I have also been getting seven hours of sleep most nights and eating more now that work is out until mid August. I'll have to work on strategies to get good rest and making sure I eat enough instead of being consumed by work stress. I'm also going to be cutting back on my physical activity outside of work when I return.

I guess the bottom line is that I was getting too much physical activity and not enough sleep or food. I wanted to thank everyone who contributed and tried to help once again.

robertw486 · July 2019

Maxematics wrote: »

I figured I'd update this post as it's been a month, things have changed, and my experience may help others with similar issues.

I had a doctor's appointment on 6/27 and got my blood test results back yesterday. I made sure I avoided taking any vitamins for over a week prior to my visit so that I could see if I had any deficiencies. Everything was perfect according to the doctor.

Prior to my visit, my hunger levels did return to normal and I shot up from 109 pounds to 117 pounds within three weeks. I'm now sitting at around 115.5 pounds which is more than fine with me. I have also been getting seven hours of sleep most nights and eating more now that work is out until mid August. I'll have to work on strategies to get good rest and making sure I eat enough instead of being consumed by work stress. I'm also going to be cutting back on my physical activity outside of work when I return.

I guess the bottom line is that I was getting too much physical activity and not enough sleep or food. I wanted to thank everyone who contributed and tried to help once again.

Though I didn't see this when it first was posted, it sounds like you've found a much better place with the work being out of the picture for a while. I've been through similar, though not to quite such extremes with having trouble eating more and such. I can be much more fit and maintain that with all work stresses out of the way. But with work added to the mix my "happy place" is a bit less fit, and a bit heavier.

As active as you seem to be, finding something that is a workout and also helps relieve stress might be a good option for when you are back at work. Though I sometimes found it boring, and rarely challenging at all, an easy walk with the family helps me de-stress and burns some calories.

Either way, I'm glad you figured it out for now and seem to have a good plan for when work comes back into the picture. It's a great example of "one size does not fit all"... we all have to find the way that works for us and all the complexities of the whole picture.

AnnPT77 · July 2019

Maxematics wrote: »

I figured I'd update this post as it's been a month, things have changed, and my experience may help others with similar issues.

I had a doctor's appointment on 6/27 and got my blood test results back yesterday. I made sure I avoided taking any vitamins for over a week prior to my visit so that I could see if I had any deficiencies. Everything was perfect according to the doctor.

Prior to my visit, my hunger levels did return to normal and I shot up from 109 pounds to 117 pounds within three weeks. I'm now sitting at around 115.5 pounds which is more than fine with me. I have also been getting seven hours of sleep most nights and eating more now that work is out until mid August. I'll have to work on strategies to get good rest and making sure I eat enough instead of being consumed by work stress. I'm also going to be cutting back on my physical activity outside of work when I return.

I guess the bottom line is that I was getting too much physical activity and not enough sleep or food. I wanted to thank everyone who contributed and tried to help once again.

Thank you for reporting back: It's interesting to me as someone who's read the thread, and I think it makes the thread more informative and useful for all.

I'm glad you're doing better, feeling better!

MelanieCN77 · July 2019

psuLemon wrote: »

So what you are experiencing is very similar to what bodybuilders experience when they compete. Very low bw or bf can increase ghrelin and reduce leptin. This generally causes extreme hunger. Add in lose of period can compound it.

In fact, Stephanie Buttermore recently did a video on what i am describing

https://youtu.be/d_qxQtdRTds

But you lost weight quickly, you were stressed and you work out a fair amount, with highly daily activity.

ETA: On top of taking a diet break, i would cut down on the exercise, especially the cardio. You walk a lot and then add a good amount of cardio on top.

Have you seen her last two videos? I'm looking forward to her month update, I think it should be quite therapeutic for a lot of people.

Maxematics · July 2019

Thanks all.

MelanieCN77 wrote: »

psuLemon wrote: »

So what you are experiencing is very similar to what bodybuilders experience when they compete. Very low bw or bf can increase ghrelin and reduce leptin. This generally causes extreme hunger. Add in lose of period can compound it.

In fact, Stephanie Buttermore recently did a video on what i am describing

https://youtu.be/d_qxQtdRTds

But you lost weight quickly, you were stressed and you work out a fair amount, with highly daily activity.

ETA: On top of taking a diet break, i would cut down on the exercise, especially the cardio. You walk a lot and then add a good amount of cardio on top.

Have you seen her last two videos? I'm looking forward to her month update, I think it should be quite therapeutic for a lot of people.

There was a thread on MFP about Stephanie Buttermore that I posted in and I got woo'd several times for simply stating that I went through some similar issues (https://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10751039/cheat-day-or-bulimia-argument-buttermore#latest). In my comment, I wrote that I noticed that we both had issues with hunger after hitting a low weight. I mentioned that I know what it feels like to have intense hunger. I also mentioned that the both of us seem to be doing similar things to remedy that hunger and that it happens to closely align with the MinnieMaud recovery method and I hadn't even realized I was doing that. Other than that, we differed because I never had 10K calorie cheat days and I don't even crave the stuff she eats in the videos. I thought it was a tad rude for people to woo my own experience based on what seemed to be their disdain for an Instagram fitness influencer; I see you even got a woo for your reference to her. It seems to be a sensitive topic to some people on the internet and I think I may know why.

I actually have been checking in on her after I found out about the whole "all in" thing and my perspective changed a bit. Looking further into it, it seems to me like she deliberately underate and overexercised in order to prep for these cheat days. Part of me wonders if she also used Anavar and/or Metformin to manipulate how the cheat days affected her body. I am only making assumptions based on my observations, but I feel like she's not being honest in her videos about why she's going all in. Every photo she takes showing her weight gain is also strategically angled so that she still looks thin. However, just because she's an instagram influencer doesn't mean she owes anyone transparency. Realizing that your habits are approaching, or may have already crossed, the line to ED territory can be an extremely embarrassing thing to admit especially to 100K+ followers, some of who secretly loathe you and will send you disgusting, potentially triggering DMs because internet anonymity makes some people feel free to show intense cruelty toward others at every turn.

MelanieCN77 · July 2019

An enormous amount of diet/fitness influencer types have disordered behaviour and thinking, I am sure of it. I don't believe that the carefully curated "what I eat in a day" videos or their physique update type stuff is a long term reality or a sustainable lifestyle. I gravitated towards Stephanie's channel in opposition to others because she does pursue a scientific reality in addition to her more trendy, deliberately shaped content, but always in the back of my head is this sensible voice talking about how when I am light enough, I get some serious ab definition and I don't train that hard or often. Most of the physique in bikini and type competing comes from low body fat, and not from all the vaguely fetishistic squat and deadlift footage they shoot and put out.

So what I'm saying is I find this new "all in" thing refreshing, and appreciate that she gently addressed this fact that the "industry" - although I think we can narrow that down to the "social media influencer community" - is full of *kitten* when it portrays this "healthy," "clean," lift heavy, Gymshark, sweet potato toast nonsense. They're using an idealised snapshot with a ring light and a beauty filter and a model kitchen to imply you can have this 24/7 and you just can't. Of course it appeals to disordered thinking, because it's about control and it's never reachable so you get to keep scratching the unsolvable itch.

I have a feeling her update will be in this vein and I'm here for it.

maureenseel1984 · July 2019

From what I can see in the pictures...and from what you are describing...a break from logging may be a good idea a this point. Do you feel it's becoming obsessive at all?

MelanieCN77 · July 2019

Not an update from Stephanie yet, but commentary that I enjoyed touching on the trends in women's "fitness" and aesthetics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWNCpsvL08Q

I'm not really sure what's happening

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