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Stretching and massage don't help muscles
Replies
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I hardly ever stretch. I might do foam rolling when I have very tight muscles, usually in my middle/upper back, and if this doesn't help then I get a massage. But stretching doesn't prevent this anyway.1
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I’ll stretch
.... and reach for that bag of Doritos on the top shelf of our pantry6 -
If you mean pain meds such as NSAIDs (anti-inflammatories) then no, you don't want to take those after/during hard exercise. (They actually ban them from some ultra-marathons due to past occurrences of them causing kidney damage.)
But if you mean you shouldn't take paracetamol or aspirin for the pain, you're very likely wrong about that.
It's not clear to me exactly which aspects of the first paragraph you're contrasting with the second, which begins with "but" (indicating some contrast is intended). If you mean to suggest that aspirin isn't an NSAID, it is.
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lukejoycePT wrote: »I’m not clued up on this but I listened to a podcast the other day with Laired Hamilton (pro surfer and athlete). He was talking about post surgery pain medication and how it slows downs the process of healing. Apparently pain is important for the release of certain chemicals in the body to promote healing, using pain medication suppresses these chemicals and slows the process.
I’d be interested to see if this is true. He said that when he had his hip replacement he stayed away from meds and healed extremely quickly. He was surfing within 2 weeks!All I know is that stretching and massage both helped my muscles incredibly when I had my joint replacement surgeries.
Could you explain in more detail?lukejoycePT wrote: »Pain is also important for a quick recovery, by taking pain meds you are suppressing the speed at which you body recovers.
If you mean pain meds such as NSAIDs (anti-inflammatories) then no, you don't want to take those after/during hard exercise. (They actually ban them from some ultra-marathons due to past occurrences of them causing kidney damage.)
But if you mean you shouldn't take paracetamol or aspirin for the pain, you're very likely wrong about that.lukejoycePT wrote: »People view swelling as a bad thing but it’s our bodies way of protecting the joint/affected area.
Indeed!
"Inflammation" is a real buzzword that people freak out about these days.
Fluid and blood in the affected area is actually how the body heals muscle fibre micro-tears (for example, formed during the normal process of exercise intensity).
The fluid and blood in the area helps muscles grow stronger.
Trying to reduce the "inflammation" is not helpful at all.
And pushing and pulling the muscles during this cellular process is pointless.
Sample of 1 but I had 6 shoulder operations and both thumb joints replaced when I was in my 50's. I took less than 10 total pain pills (not doses) combined for the 8 surgeries.
I each case, the doctor and PT said I healed significantly faster from the procedures than most people they saw.
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I ran cross country and did track in high school and we were always taught that we did the stretching and warm ups to prevent injury—and found it was extremely important as weather conditions changed to prevent injury. I’ve never thought of it as able to prevent muscle soreness3
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Interesting discussion taking place here.
For me, stretching is the hardest challenge as I always seem to be in a rush to hit the shower after exercise. Really have to force myself to do some before heading off to the changing rooms.
That said, when I do stretch, it seems to help. Also, for me, it’s about doing the stretching correctly.
Finally, this is a shout out for good Osteopaths, rather than physios. Having treatment from such is very relieving. When I go to see my Osteo I get a combination of manipulation, stretching, clicking, reflexology ( that really loosens things up), deep tissue massage and acupuncture. Feel absolutely amazing after a 1hr session minimum with my Osteo (Alpesh).2 -
I've never found it to make any difference, personally. I used to stretch a little before working out, but found that if I forgot to, I felt just the same. Most of the time, if I hurt myself, it's because I was too cocky and did more than I should have.
Warming-up is more important. Getting the pulse racing a little, before doing any proper exercise.2 -
If I don’t stretch and foam roll my calves and IT band, they eventually get so tight I’ve torn a muscle walking. My kneecap will also dislocate. Walking. Doing neck stretches relieves and prevents headaches for me that come from muscle tension. I’m not saying this isn’t true for many athletes - but for non-athletes maybe - it can definitely prevent injuries. Citation: the field of physiotherapy.
I think it’s a different case if someone is an athlete with strong, capable muscles that just get sore sometimes.1 -
If massage doesn't help muscles, how come my physio was able to move my leg with a greater range of movement and without causing me pain after five minutes of massaging my hip?3
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If massage doesn't help muscles, how come my physio was able to move my leg with a greater range of movement and without causing me pain after five minutes of massaging my hip?
I believe the research on it suggests that what happens is one simply becomes inured to the pain via stretching - the stretching doesn't change the muscle, but the signal that says "this hurts" gets turned down.2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »If massage doesn't help muscles, how come my physio was able to move my leg with a greater range of movement and without causing me pain after five minutes of massaging my hip?
I believe the research on it suggests that what happens is one simply becomes inured to the pain via stretching - the stretching doesn't change the muscle, but the signal that says "this hurts" gets turned down.
...so why didn't that happen on the other leg as well?0 -
(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)3
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Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
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lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?0 -
Because the massage has most likely released the muscle, freeing the joint.
But a deep tissue massage isn’t stretching.lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?
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lukejoycePT wrote: »Because the massage has most likely released the muscle, freeing the joint.
But a deep tissue massage isn’t stretching.lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?
It's not stretching, but it's definitely massage
What do you mean by 'released the muscle'?1 -
When you have an injury your body tries to isolate the area, whether that be by swelling or through contacting the muscle around the affected area.
This causes your muscles to feel knotted and tight. A deep tissue massage can help release the muscle and remove the knots.lukejoycePT wrote: »Because the massage has most likely released the muscle, freeing the joint.
But a deep tissue massage isn’t stretching.lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?
It's not stretching, but it's definitely massage
What do you mean by 'released the muscle'?
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lukejoycePT wrote: »When you have an injury your body tries to isolate the area, whether that be by swelling or through contacting the muscle around the affected area.
This causes your muscles to feel knotted and tight. A deep tissue massage can help release the muscle and remove the knots.lukejoycePT wrote: »Because the massage has most likely released the muscle, freeing the joint.
But a deep tissue massage isn’t stretching.lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?
It's not stretching, but it's definitely massage
What do you mean by 'released the muscle'?
So you agree with me that massage has a mechanical effect on the muscle?2 -
Yes of course I do, I think massage is really beneficial.
I just think stretching isn’t.lukejoycePT wrote: »When you have an injury your body tries to isolate the area, whether that be by swelling or through contacting the muscle around the affected area.
This causes your muscles to feel knotted and tight. A deep tissue massage can help release the muscle and remove the knots.lukejoycePT wrote: »Because the massage has most likely released the muscle, freeing the joint.
But a deep tissue massage isn’t stretching.lukejoycePT wrote: »Hip pain is normally related to the hip itself not the muscles. The muscles feel tighter and ache because they are trying to protect the joint.
Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle will only reduce the pain local to that muscle.(By which I mean, if pain signals generally get turned down, then massaging one hip should have also reduced pain in the other leg - it didn't. Conversely, if it's just pain signals from that particular muscle that get turned down, then massaging one hip should have made no difference to motion and pain in that leg, because it was a different muscle that was hurting. However that other muscle no longer hurt. Maybe it's magic?)
That's my point. Deep tissue massage of a particular muscle improved the flexibility of my hip, as previously reflected by the pain in a different muscle that the physio didn't touch. If deep tissue massage doesn't actually have any mechanical effect, how did it manage that?
It's not stretching, but it's definitely massage
What do you mean by 'released the muscle'?
So you agree with me that massage has a mechanical effect on the muscle?
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lukejoycePT wrote: »Yes of course I do, I think massage is really beneficial.
I just think stretching isn’t.
I don't think there's any 'of course' in a discussion entitled 'Stretching and massage don't help muscles'!
I think massage does help muscles, and I've said nothing about stretching.9 -
Both do help, especially if done correctly and if possible by an expert, i.e. your physio or Osteopath. Always amazes me how after a good session with my Osteopath, my aching, stiff body & limbs feel so relaxed and loose, giving me real freedom of movement.
Even more amazing is how, in order to free a certain part of the body or a limb, he will do things at other locations on the body or frame that you would not believe are linked, e.g. powerfully massaging & stretching the feet to cure problems in my knees or lower back...ecstasy!!!2 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Yes of course I do, I think massage is really beneficial.
I just think stretching isn’t.
I don't think there's any 'of course' in a discussion entitled 'Stretching and massage don't help muscles'!
I think massage does help muscles, and I've said nothing about stretching.
Massage doesn't help muscles.
Hips can hurt because of tensing your muscles, trapped nerves, and/or joint pain or other pain such as arthritis.
Pushing or pulling the muscle doesn't affect the biology of the muscle itself. It doesn't change the cells, fibres, fascia, tissues.
Massage doesn't help the muscle, it helps your brain signals stop tensing it and trapping the nerves.
The brain's signals tense up the muscles and travel and radiates to the brain and nervous system, so people get chronic pain if the issues causing the tension signals aren't addressed.
It also physically loosens the hold of the tension the nerve signal is creating on the muscle where it's attached to the joint, so range of motion improves.
Knowing your range of joint motion has improved helps you feel emotionally better and releases more tension.
The massage isn’t helping the muscle, but rather the brain, nerves, joints, and tendons.
If massaging helped the muscle, it would heal torn muscles, which is unheard of. It's not magical re-generation of body parts, or instant repair of broken muscle fibres.
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lukejoycePT wrote: »Yes of course I do, I think massage is really beneficial.
I just think stretching isn’t.
I don't think there's any 'of course' in a discussion entitled 'Stretching and massage don't help muscles'!
I think massage does help muscles, and I've said nothing about stretching.
Massage doesn't help muscles.
Hips can hurt because of tensing your muscles, trapped nerves, and/or joint pain or other pain such as arthritis.
Pushing or pulling the muscle doesn't affect the biology of the muscle itself. It doesn't change the cells, fibres, fascia, tissues.
Massage doesn't help the muscle, it helps your brain signals stop tensing it and trapping the nerves.
The brain's signals tense up the muscles and travel and radiates to the brain and nervous system, so people get chronic pain if the issues causing the tension signals aren't addressed.
It also physically loosens the hold of the tension the nerve signal is creating on the muscle where it's attached to the joint, so range of motion improves.
Knowing your range of joint motion has improved helps you feel emotionally better and releases more tension.
The massage isn’t helping the muscle, but rather the brain, nerves, joints, and tendons.
If massaging helped the muscle, it would heal torn muscles, which is unheard of. It's not magical re-generation of body parts, or instant repair of broken muscle fibres.
Given that the result of the massage is a physical improvement in the muscle's function, that seems to be splitting the hair a bit too finely...14 -
lukejoycePT wrote: »Yes of course I do, I think massage is really beneficial.
I just think stretching isn’t.
I don't think there's any 'of course' in a discussion entitled 'Stretching and massage don't help muscles'!
I think massage does help muscles, and I've said nothing about stretching.
Massage doesn't help muscles.
Hips can hurt because of tensing your muscles, trapped nerves, and/or joint pain or other pain such as arthritis.
Pushing or pulling the muscle doesn't affect the biology of the muscle itself. It doesn't change the cells, fibres, fascia, tissues.
Massage doesn't help the muscle, it helps your brain signals stop tensing it and trapping the nerves.
The brain's signals tense up the muscles and travel and radiates to the brain and nervous system, so people get chronic pain if the issues causing the tension signals aren't addressed.
It also physically loosens the hold of the tension the nerve signal is creating on the muscle where it's attached to the joint, so range of motion improves.
Knowing your range of joint motion has improved helps you feel emotionally better and releases more tension.
The massage isn’t helping the muscle, but rather the brain, nerves, joints, and tendons.
If massaging helped the muscle, it would heal torn muscles, which is unheard of. It's not magical re-generation of body parts, or instant repair of broken muscle fibres.
Given that the result of the massage is a physical improvement in the muscle's function, that seems to be splitting the hair a bit too finely...
agreed6 -
The massage isn’t helping the muscle, but rather the brain, nerves, joints, and tendons.
If massaging helped the muscle, it would heal torn muscles, which is unheard of. It's not magical re-generation of body parts, or instant repair of broken muscle fibres.Given that the result of the massage is a physical improvement in the muscle's function, that seems to be splitting the hair a bit too finely...
That's trying to make it about the muscle again when nothing happened to change the muscle.
I've seen too many runners seriously depressed from not running due to injuries because they talk about sore muscles and spend money on stretching routines and massage, when the cause and treatment ends up being unrelated to the condition of the actual muscles.
But I don't mind if using the wrong term for something makes people feel better about knowing they're wrong about using it, that's fine.
xo
However, accuracy in medical terminology and knowlege is a big problem in the world, not just the fitness industry, and it's very important in getting the right diagnosis and treatment for oneself so we can keep being healthy and active.
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All mammals and birds stretch, so I'm going to guess that there's a reason for it, even if it's not been found. And it feels good.
Massage, I never got anything out of it until I hit my 40s and noticed that the areas of shin splints and foot pain felt almost grainy, massage seemed to clear it away, and away went the pain. The grainy feeling is only there when there's pain/injury.
Not very scientific, I'm not about to declare that this is proof, but it's working for me so I'll continue.1 -
The massage isn’t helping the muscle, but rather the brain, nerves, joints, and tendons.
If massaging helped the muscle, it would heal torn muscles, which is unheard of. It's not magical re-generation of body parts, or instant repair of broken muscle fibres.Given that the result of the massage is a physical improvement in the muscle's function, that seems to be splitting the hair a bit too finely...
That's trying to make it about the muscle again when nothing happened to change the muscle.
I've seen too many runners seriously depressed from not running due to injuries because they talk about sore muscles and spend money on stretching routines and massage, when the cause and treatment ends up being unrelated to the condition of the actual muscles.
But I don't mind if using the wrong term for something makes people feel better about knowing they're wrong about using it, that's fine. xo
However, accuracy in medical terminology and knowlege is a big problem in the world, not just the fitness industry, and it's very important in getting the right diagnosis and treatment for oneself so we can keep being healthy and active.
The problem there isn’t that massage isn’t effective, it’s that it’s being used incorrectly.
I am currently using massage (foam rollering) to treat a hip problem. It was prescribed by my physio to increase my range of motion. I am also performing exercises that strengthen the muscles around the joint. Are you going to tell me that I shouldn’t be using massage because it doesn’t technically affect the condition of the actual muscles? Wouldn’t that be a ridiculous thing for someone to advise?
The solution to people massaging muscles when the problem is elsewhere isn’t to split hairs about whether massage is technically healing the muscle. It’s to advise people to get their issues properly diagnosed.
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The solution to people massaging muscles when the problem is elsewhere isn’t to split hairs about whether massage is technically healing the muscle. It’s to advise people to get their issues properly diagnosed.
The solution to proper diagnosis and care is both accuracy in terminology AND correct treatment.
Your physio isn't telling you the foam rolling is healing the muscle. They said, it will "increase my range of motion", i.e. what we've been saying about joint mobility.
Likewise (though irrelevant to the body of the discussion), the exercises the physio prescribed are not stretching or massage to "strengthen the muscles around the joint". They're exercises.
If you had "split hairs" and referred to your hip, nerves, joints and tendons when appropriate, you would have saved yourself a long discussion defending your statement that stretching and massage help your "muscles".
Sorry if this sounds confronting to you. It's said in a neutral tone of voice. Kind regards.1 -
Ultimately, massage is an essential part of a treatment that is healing my muscles, though. Don’t split the hairs so finely that you lose the actual point in the detail.
I mean, if you really want to be picky, very few treatments actually heal anything. Bandages don’t heal, they just protect the wound and provide a good environment for the body to rebuild tissues. Antibiotics don’t heal, they kill bacteria. Surgery definitely doesn’t heal, it just cuts things apart and reassembles them in an improved position, from which the body then heals itself. Do you ensure that people understand that they’re not actually healing the wound when they put on antiseptic and a band-aid?9 -
Great discussion.
I teach ballet for a living and I've been implementing dynamic stretching in the beginning of class and static stretching at the end of class for years because of these studies.
But when I substitute teach for other teachers and do dynamic stretching in the beginning of class I ALWAYS get backlash from the students and teachers about how we need to start with static stretching because, "that's just how it's always been done."
I've tried talking to the other teachers about it but it's hard to change other people's minds (even though I'm 34 and the most flexible teacher).
Should I stick to my ways and tell them not to use me as a sub if they don't like it? Or should I give in and start with static stretching?1
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