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Muscle Building and Fat Loss...
J72FIT
Posts: 6,002 Member
in Debate Club
When it comes to building muscle, people often put too much emphasis on food, when it comes to fat loss, people often put too much emphasis on exercise.
IMO, it should be the other way around.
Thoughts...?
IMO, it should be the other way around.
Thoughts...?
11
Replies
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You gave two examples, then said it should be the other way around. I know I have a headache, but can't make sense of what your opinion is. 😞
My opinion is that a calorie deficit leads to fat loss. Exercise leads to toning up.
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I think it is common for people that aren't familiar to overestimate what they can lose via exercise, particularly for themselves.
I don't think people overemphasis food for building as much, but there are a few confused patches of people that think the protein requirements for building muscle in a surplus is far higher than it is, and there's a small patch of people that still believe bulking has to be far more calories than it needs to be.
I suppose in both cases, there's an issue that people think they're a different person than they probably are. The amount of hard gainers that need to force feed to overcome their adaptive metabolism is small. The amount of people that need to lose weight and can actually generate a significant deficit via activity is pretty small.7 -
Many people are very firm about "calories in, calories out" which in essence is true, but the body reacts differently to 1600 calories or fruits, veggies and protein than it does to Nachos bell grande. Abs are made in the kitchen. In short, I agree people focus on the wrong things and arent looking at the bigger picture.5
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When it comes to building muscle, people often put too much emphasis on food, when it comes to fat loss, people often put too much emphasis on exercise.
IMO, it should be the other way around.
Thoughts...?
Are you talking about people on MFP? Or more generally (social media, magazines, etc)?
I rarely see people here arguing for exercise over diet as the key to weight loss.
I routinely see people talking about he importance of diet in muscle building. I assume that's to counter balance what everyone already knows thanks to social media, magazines, and the rest - that lifting is how you build muscle.1 -
When it comes to building muscle, people often put too much emphasis on food, when it comes to fat loss, people often put too much emphasis on exercise.
IMO, it should be the other way around.
Thoughts...?
Based solely on what I see from newbies asking questions here? Yes, I agree.
Lots of threads where people posts a 5 paragraph summary of their workouts and want to know why they aren't losing weight, with no mention of their diet.
And plenty of threads where newbies are asking for the best macros, the best foods, the worst foods for building muscle, but it takes several questioning replies before they'll go into their workout, which is usually self-designed.
It's weird. I don't know if it's indicative of people IRL, or just here. I guess I understand for the losing weight portion - there are tons of companies like Beachbody telling people that "doing this workout will shred the fat". But even before I came here, never having worked out much myself, I assumed building muscle was all about how you work the muscle.8 -
Agreed. Too many people think they can outrun their fork and the only way to build muscle is to follow a "bulking" plan that has that gaining at too fast of a rate for gains to be lean (which is usually what they're seeking).4
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I agree with you.
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Well, of course it is. I have that effect on people. 😂4 -
While calories are on top shelf for hypertrophy, protein and the quality there of is a key factor to those who are not carnivores, less male, advanced age, health etc...
For hypertrophy I would certainly put more emphasis on the amount and quality of protein to a 73 year old lady who has had her colon resectioned compared to a young 21 year old man filled to the brim with testosterone that has zero health issues.
There isn't just one blanket that covers all people. This is where the recommended daily consumption has failed. Current literature shows this time and time again and it is ignored.2 -
You see it all the time with the questions people ask.
What macros will help me build muscle?
What exercises should I do to get rid of my gut?
I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.11 -
I agree that the fitness industry is absolutely polluted with horrible content.
That being said, there are people who are putting out excellant content.
I mean we all know that protein in needed for hypertrophy, but do the majority of people understand if your protein is plant based you would definitely want to check your EAAs are adequate and probably up your protein for optimal results?
Macros question can be important for many people once you get them on the right track for hypertrophy long term.1 -
I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
Its scary, IMO, how little regulation/standards there are in the industry.
The amount of woo that gets peddled is horrifying, particularly when you realise most people dont have a functional woo-detector.
Just look at new members to the site, so many questions about apple cider vinegar, macros, going keto/paleo/whatever.... And not at that point even understanding the fundamentals of CICO.
I speak from experience. I got over weight very much through ignorance, I didnt consider calories at all, and didnt really worry about it. When I got to a weight where I had to do something about it (or was ready to?) it was a very steep learning curve.
Ive a fairly critical mind, CICO sunk in quickly, it made sense, and I set about doing what I needed to do, but there was a lot of trial and error, reading and learning along the way.
I can very easily see people getting lost in a sea of information and not being able to pick the real, helpful info from the nonsense....
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I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.8 -
I agree. One big eye opener for me was when I signed up with a PT. He sat me on the rowing machine and told me to row flat out until I had burned ten calories. I thought he was joking or had made a mistake. But no. I was astonished by the effort required to burn ten miserable calories. And I did not reward myself with a muffin afterwards.11
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magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
This is the Gillette business model. You can only sell so many razors but people are going to keep needing those blades.
Love the image of the barbarian vs. the wizard.2 -
SnifterPug wrote: »I agree. One big eye opener for me was when I signed up with a PT. He sat me on the rowing machine and told me to row flat out until I had burned ten calories. I thought he was joking or had made a mistake. But no. I was astonished by the effort required to burn ten miserable calories. And I did not reward myself with a muffin afterwards.
This makes me that I think the "you can use exercise to create a large deficit" wisdom is primarily useful for people who have and are able to maintain a large aerobic base. Well that combined with what happens to me when I ride my bike or erg (row on a rowing machine) more and don't make sweeping changes to my calorie consumption.
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute - according to my last 5k test I was burning 16 calories a minute and I didn't PB. That's not because I'm some sort of Adonis, it's because rowing is one of my two sports of choice. With the bike training I do inside currently, I'm typically burning over 6 calories a minute and my FTP isn't especially amazing (or at all amazing).
But again, I am not exercising with the sole or primary goal of fat loss. My "oh - I really need to work on my aerobic base" realization came from how much that 5k hurt and knowing that my limiter was my aerobic base. All of the cycling stuff I've done in the past 2 years has revolved around long (100 mi) rides outside and wanting to keep up my fitness. Yes, most of my exercise will end in me losing weight without a lot of effort, but that's not the point for me.3 -
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute
Indeed. It only took me about a minute as even then I could sustain around 600cal per hour for the requisite minute to burn the ten calories. But even now I'm sure I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour even though my all-out sprint pace can reach 1000cal per hour for 30 secs or so.
I do choose to use exercise to help with a deficit but it's damned hard work. I speak as one who spent 12 years mooching about on a treadmill at a fast walking pace for half an hour a day fondly imagining I was getting fit and earning a dessert to boot.
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SnifterPug wrote: »
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute
Indeed. It only took me about a minute as even then I could sustain around 600cal per hour for the requisite minute to burn the ten calories. But even now I'm sure I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour even though my all-out sprint pace can reach 1000cal per hour for 30 secs or so.
I do choose to use exercise to help with a deficit but it's damned hard work. I speak as one who spent 12 years mooching about on a treadmill at a fast walking pace for half an hour a day fondly imagining I was getting fit and earning a dessert to boot.
And see that's the thing, last winter I was routinely burning 500-700 calories over the course of 30-60 minutes three days a week on an erg. But that was after multiple seasons of bike riding and with an organized plan.1 -
SnifterPug wrote: »
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute
Indeed. It only took me about a minute as even then I could sustain around 600cal per hour for the requisite minute to burn the ten calories. But even now I'm sure I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour even though my all-out sprint pace can reach 1000cal per hour for 30 secs or so.
I do choose to use exercise to help with a deficit but it's damned hard work. I speak as one who spent 12 years mooching about on a treadmill at a fast walking pace for half an hour a day fondly imagining I was getting fit and earning a dessert to boot.
And see that's the thing, last winter I was routinely burning 500-700 calories over the course of 30-60 minutes three days a week on an erg. But that was after multiple seasons of bike riding and with an organized plan.
On the one hand, that's a nice calorie burn. On the other hand, it's less than a fancy sweet latte and a bagel with cream cheese.
2 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
If one can't lose weight or get fit without switching up one's workout routine often to "confuse" and "shock", then one will need to be buying the latest fitness toys and exercise programs, not just the consumable foods/supplements.
Pushing products may also be some of the impetus behind trendiness in programs, too. Remember when we all needed to stay in "the fat burning zone"? Now we need to "do HIIT" in order to get that "24-hour afterburn".
We also get varying emphasis on body parts over time, too: Six pack, core, booty, . . . .
Sell, sell, sell; overcomplicate, obfuscate.
Back at the OP: I agree with your feeling, if I'm correctly understanding you. Plus we know that people typically overestimate exercise calories, and underestimate eaten calories . . . even people with actual expertise. I'd assume wishful thinking has something to do with that. Not much of a surprise that non-experts make even worse assumptions. Add in the degree of "bad at or averse to math" innumeracy that seems quite common, and here we are.
I'm tempted to add that it seems common for people to think in generalizations, and in static pictures of reality, when in practice systems thinking is more functional. Bodies are complex systems. In that context, I like @Chieflrg 's post:I agree that the fitness industry is absolutely polluted with horrible content.
That being said, there are people who are putting out excellant content.
I mean we all know that protein in needed for hypertrophy, but do the majority of people understand if your protein is plant based you would definitely want to check your EAAs are adequate and probably up your protein for optimal results?
Macros question can be important for many people once you get them on the right track for hypertrophy long term.
6 -
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
Can you imagine if we really had that much control over our body? Our species would have become extinct a long time ago...
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magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
If one can't lose weight or get fit without switching up one's workout routine often to "confuse" and "shock", then one will need to be buying the latest fitness toys and exercise programs, not just the consumable foods/supplements.
Pushing products may also be some of the impetus behind trendiness in programs, too. Remember when we all needed to stay in "the fat burning zone"? Now we need to "do HIIT" in order to get that "24-hour afterburn".
We also get varying emphasis on body parts over time, too: Six pack, core, booty, . . . .
Sell, sell, sell; overcomplicate, obfuscate.
Back at the OP: I agree with your feeling, if I'm correctly understanding you. Plus we know that people typically overestimate exercise calories, and underestimate eaten calories . . . even people with actual expertise. I'd assume wishful thinking has something to do with that. Not much of a surprise that non-experts make even worse assumptions. Add in the degree of "bad at or averse to math" innumeracy that seems quite common, and here we are.
I'm tempted to add that it seems common for people to think in generalizations, and in static pictures of reality, when in practice systems thinking is more functional. Bodies are complex systems. In that context, I like @Chieflrg 's post:I agree that the fitness industry is absolutely polluted with horrible content.
That being said, there are people who are putting out excellant content.
I mean we all know that protein in needed for hypertrophy, but do the majority of people understand if your protein is plant based you would definitely want to check your EAAs are adequate and probably up your protein for optimal results?
Macros question can be important for many people once you get them on the right track for hypertrophy long term.
Need that Awesome button back.
I'm eternally humbled by the sheer brilliance that life exists in any way, shape, or form.2 -
SnifterPug wrote: »
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute
Indeed. It only took me about a minute as even then I could sustain around 600cal per hour for the requisite minute to burn the ten calories. But even now I'm sure I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour even though my all-out sprint pace can reach 1000cal per hour for 30 secs or so.
I do choose to use exercise to help with a deficit but it's damned hard work. I speak as one who spent 12 years mooching about on a treadmill at a fast walking pace for half an hour a day fondly imagining I was getting fit and earning a dessert to boot.
And see that's the thing, last winter I was routinely burning 500-700 calories over the course of 30-60 minutes three days a week on an erg. But that was after multiple seasons of bike riding and with an organized plan.
On the one hand, that's a nice calorie burn. On the other hand, it's less than a fancy sweet latte and a bagel with cream cheese.
It ends up being more than my typical breakfast actually! Two thin bialys with butter (adds up to about 1 bagel), black coffee (fancy freshly and locally roasted pour over), and a small pastry. Sometimes there are benefits to not liking cream cheese That and the person who typically prepares my bialys, knows that I don't want them slathered in butter. He'll even check from time to time, "You don't like a lot of butter right?". 0 -
SnifterPug wrote: »
Had your personal trainer given me the same challenge it would have taken well under a minute
Indeed. It only took me about a minute as even then I could sustain around 600cal per hour for the requisite minute to burn the ten calories. But even now I'm sure I couldn't sustain that pace for an hour even though my all-out sprint pace can reach 1000cal per hour for 30 secs or so.
I do choose to use exercise to help with a deficit but it's damned hard work. I speak as one who spent 12 years mooching about on a treadmill at a fast walking pace for half an hour a day fondly imagining I was getting fit and earning a dessert to boot.
And see that's the thing, last winter I was routinely burning 500-700 calories over the course of 30-60 minutes three days a week on an erg. But that was after multiple seasons of bike riding and with an organized plan.
On the one hand, that's a nice calorie burn. On the other hand, it's less than a fancy sweet latte and a bagel with cream cheese.
It ends up being more than my typical breakfast actually! Two thin bialys with butter (adds up to about 1 bagel), black coffee (fancy freshly and locally roasted pour over), and a small pastry. Sometimes there are benefits to not liking cream cheese That and the person who typically prepares my bialys, knows that I don't want them slathered in butter. He'll even check from time to time, "You don't like a lot of butter right?".
Off topic but...I've never heard that from anyone before lol.
On topic - I've found that if I get 2.5-4 hours of resistance training a week, and eat a proper amount of calories I maintain my muscle mass (not a huge amount lol) and stay lean. Nothing complicated required.
In light of that, I constantly get numerous comments regarding my age and appearance and have (fill in the blank) diet/workout/magic pill brought to my attention by coworkers/friends/family and they don't seem to believe me when I push back against both the marketing hype and the over aggressive "You need to train to failure 7 days a week" strategies.
The latter there is an exaggeration, but it's in response to being pushed to limits occasionally that I simply do not need to go to in order to achieve my goals.4 -
How muscle confusion became a thing is confusing in and of itself. Potentially there's a tiny grain of truth - I've heard of some studies suggesting exercise staleness, but on the scale of a macrocycle. In general though, hypertrophy relies on the exact opposite of muscle confusion - one has to become proficient in an exercise before adding weight to it puts a strain on muscles that elicits growth, otherwise initial increases in performance are just skill, not muscle.magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
If one can't lose weight or get fit without switching up one's workout routine often to "confuse" and "shock", then one will need to be buying the latest fitness toys and exercise programs, not just the consumable foods/supplements.
Pushing products may also be some of the impetus behind trendiness in programs, too. Remember when we all needed to stay in "the fat burning zone"? Now we need to "do HIIT" in order to get that "24-hour afterburn".
We also get varying emphasis on body parts over time, too: Six pack, core, booty, . . . .
Sell, sell, sell; overcomplicate, obfuscate.
I suppose it works as a sales pitch because it can really make people feel like they're making progress by constantly switching to something they can progress at with skill acquisition.6 -
magnusthenerd wrote: »
How muscle confusion became a thing is confusing in and of itself. Potentially there's a tiny grain of truth - I've heard of some studies suggesting exercise staleness, but on the scale of a macrocycle. In general though, hypertrophy relies on the exact opposite of muscle confusion - one has to become proficient in an exercise before adding weight to it puts a strain on muscles that elicits growth, otherwise initial increases in performance are just skill, not muscle.magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
If one can't lose weight or get fit without switching up one's workout routine often to "confuse" and "shock", then one will need to be buying the latest fitness toys and exercise programs, not just the consumable foods/supplements.
Pushing products may also be some of the impetus behind trendiness in programs, too. Remember when we all needed to stay in "the fat burning zone"? Now we need to "do HIIT" in order to get that "24-hour afterburn".
We also get varying emphasis on body parts over time, too: Six pack, core, booty, . . . .
Sell, sell, sell; overcomplicate, obfuscate.
I suppose it works as a sales pitch because it can really make people feel like they're making progress by constantly switching to something they can progress at with skill acquisition.
I imagine it probably originated with bros who didn't understand the reasoning behind rotating programs.
Instead of understanding that the reasons range from "refocusing on muscles that weren't worked as hard in the last program" to "adding increased volume overall" or a host of other reasons behind choosing to cycle through lifting programs, they mistakenly assumed "Oh! I've gotta keep changing things up to keep my muscles confused!"4 -
I agree with anyone that says the fitness industry and bodybuilding industry has to sell products to people which is why there is so much focus on what you eat. Gotta sell those powders, mixes, aminos, creatines, etc. Oh and those bars as well. Just buy your way to a better body. People buy all that stuff and forget they still gotta put the sweat in and still some people struggle to put muscles on due to their metabolism. Just my two cents.3
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magnusthenerd wrote: »
How muscle confusion became a thing is confusing in and of itself. Potentially there's a tiny grain of truth - I've heard of some studies suggesting exercise staleness, but on the scale of a macrocycle. In general though, hypertrophy relies on the exact opposite of muscle confusion - one has to become proficient in an exercise before adding weight to it puts a strain on muscles that elicits growth, otherwise initial increases in performance are just skill, not muscle.magnusthenerd wrote: »I blame this on the diet and fitness industry, who, IMO purposefully overcomplicate this stuff to keep themselves in business.
I think it is interesting what the fitness industry has been able to kind of sell people as ideas because of what they can't sell to them as products - there's only so many weights and barbells that can be sold, but BCAA's, preworkouts, fat burners, and protein powders can all be sold to the same individuals for daily consumption.
Which I think creates an incredibly funny image: all kinds of people wanting to look like a barbarian, but they're mixing up more powders than a wizard.
I believe the fitness industry has also done some clever things with using ill-founded ideas to sell more products, too. Specifically, I'm thinking of ideas that we need to cause "muscle confusion", to "shock our body", and that sort of thing, in order to make progress.
If one can't lose weight or get fit without switching up one's workout routine often to "confuse" and "shock", then one will need to be buying the latest fitness toys and exercise programs, not just the consumable foods/supplements.
Pushing products may also be some of the impetus behind trendiness in programs, too. Remember when we all needed to stay in "the fat burning zone"? Now we need to "do HIIT" in order to get that "24-hour afterburn".
We also get varying emphasis on body parts over time, too: Six pack, core, booty, . . . .
Sell, sell, sell; overcomplicate, obfuscate.
I suppose it works as a sales pitch because it can really make people feel like they're making progress by constantly switching to something they can progress at with skill acquisition.
This is precisely the core of many of these programs.
It is very challenging for humans to see the value in sacrificing the present for the future, especially when one goes through days/weeks/months without seeing results.
Over the long term this is why all trending ends up in statistically identical points, but exhibit dramatic change at the beginning.0 -
When it comes to building muscle, people often put too much emphasis on food, when it comes to fat loss, people often put too much emphasis on exercise.
IMO, it should be the other way around.
Thoughts...?
I actually think people don't put enought emphasis on food when trying to build muscle. People are generally scared to put on any weight after they've been successful losing it for the first time. You need to be in a surplus to build muscle but it's difficult to build muscle without putting on fat too, even when we try to "lean gain".
I agree that people often put too much emphasis on exercise for fat loss. I did a 5 minute presentation to colleagues on metabolism recently and most were surprised to see how little EAT contributes to TDEE.
Someone quoted here that "abs are made in the kitchen", which is a quote I've often use until someone pointed out that abs are made in the gym and revealed in the kitchen, in much the same way as all other muscle definition is.1
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