Getting started with indoor rowing?

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.

*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.

sgt1372 wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.

I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:

1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.

And then begin again.

If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.

I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.

In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:

Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.

There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).

aokoye wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

Most people I know care more about their split than watts with some exceptions*. I also suspect that someone's weight (and the ability to transfer that weight to moving the flywheel) is going to play a significantly larger role on their split on an erg than their FTP on a bike. Regardless, this is not something I would be worrying about right now.

*One of the former collegiate rowers that I know is recovering from an injury (I think she's more or less been out for a few months) and just got on the erg last week. She mentioned over coffee/breakfast this past weekend that she set the monitor to watts so she wouldn't be tempted to get a faster split. From what I can tell, she more or less never looks at watts, or at least doesn't look at them enough to have any sort of metric.

If C2 is to be believed (and I'll bet they are), watts and splits are equateable by formula.

I expect rowers use splits because we don't (can't?) measure watts in the boat. What matters is pace, specifically (for any non-rowers who might be reading) that minutes/seconds per 500m that is the rowing split. We do measure splits in boats. Almost close to all we care about.

aokoye wrote: »

sgt1372 wrote: »

NorthCascades wrote: »

Ok, I've done a lot of homework about form, and I'm going back to the gym tonight to try it again. I realized how testing a job I was doing after the pull, bringing myself forward again, I expect tonight to go much better, I'm sure it still won't be perfect.

Are watts as important a metric as they are on a bike? I have a feeling they're influenced more by technique than fitness. If my FTP is around 250w, what should I expect to be doing once I get the hang of this?

As mentioned by others, there are a lot of sites that can provide you videos and written instructions about the proper form and technique to use in rowing.

I find that most of them provide far more complicated "explanations" than needed and I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips:

1) Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement.
2) Your legs should do most (if not all) of the work in initiating the movement.
3) After your legs are fully extended, pull the handle towards your chest with your arms/shoulders and UPPER back.
4) This is the only time that your upper body is required to do the movement.
5) Keep your back upright between 11-1 o'clock during the movement; do not slouch.
6) Arch your back as you finish the movement by touching the handle to your chest.

And then begin again.

If you do this, you will automatically be using proper form and you will NOT get a sore lower back because your lower back will only be engaged w/your abs to maintain your core in order to remain upright during the movement.

I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.

In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:

Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.

There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).

I agree with that, but not sure whether the difference is more in the actual movement, or in the description of it being non-standard. (FWIW, I did do USRowing coaching certification education through level 2, and some other coaching education besides that. But coaching ed and $6 will get you a latte. ).

I'd certainly say you don't arch your back in the arms phase: Straight back still at that point, as always.

I've heard the 11 to 1 thing before, but it's not gospel (can vary with body configuration and ab strength; plus one of the ways some machine-only rowers improve pace is via extreme layback (which requires extreme core to pull off, and will probably flip a boat, unless you're one of the Canadian national team of a few years back )).

I also agree with you (Aokoye) that it's legs-body-arms-arms-body-legs drive to recovery, pretty pure, with only enough micro-overlap of the parts on the drive to keep the power curve smooth (or maintain the unweighting of butt on seat through the whole drive phase, depending on how you want to look at it). There's upper body engagement (especially lats) during the legs portion just to maintain the body wedge, and suspend the body weight/leg power between foot stretcher and handle so you're towing the handle along as the legs move the body (and handle!) along the slide. The arms-away/body-over portion of the recovery can make a surprising contribution to split, potentially, too, by keeping the flywheel moving (or not ) on the rowing machine, let alone how important it is in a boat. One of my coaches hated that the standard term is "the finish" because a lot of people end up taking a micro-pause there, as (he believed) a consequence of the terminology plus how the sequence is normally taught from catch to finish (when it's really a continous cycle).

NorthCascades wrote: »

I spent 25 minutes rowing yesterday. I followed some advice from work: slow down to speed up. Focused on form instead of speed and intensity. I kept feeling like I must be getting the back motion wrong, but had no lower back soreness during or after. A little bit of upper back soreness, behind my shoulder blades, and I think this is "the right kind.". My lats and traps are my Achilles heel.

I tried using both legs. The motion doesn't hurt my ankle, but the angle does. Tightening the strap is painful, too. (Tight shoes hurt for the same reason.) So I continued one leg, the other one on the ground.

I feel like this is one of those things that easy to pick up but difficult to master.

It's OK to row feet out (no straps) if you want to try that. It's even useful for some technique issues, especially around the finish-to-recovery transition. We do it as a drill sometimes.

It sounds like you're making good progress, and I'm glad your lower back is doing better.

Between shoulder blades soreness is OK, but be sure that you're keeping your shoulders down (the traps comment is what triggered me to say this - it's not necessarily indicative of a problem, but it matters how you're using them - they're more maintaining structure and connection for the suspension between handle and feet, not so much actually pulling).

A common beginner fault is over-using upper body via pulling shoulders up (perhaps subtly) and other ways, short-changing the more powerful big-muscles lower-body part of the drive. Many people do it, but IMO that problem seems to be a little more common among men, perhaps because on average upper body strength is higher than women's in the first place, and perhaps there's a tendency to be a little more in touch with upper body strength (again, on average, not universal) because of using it more in daily life. Dunno. I've worked with a bunch of beginners (assisting with a decade or more of on-water learn-to-row classes), and it seems to be a pattern, to me.

Many instructional sources tell you to keep your feet (heels) down on the foot-stretcher all the way to vertical shins, which is right, if you can do it. If you can't - or if it would be ankle-sparing for you right now? - it's OK to let the heels come up at the very end of the recovery in order to get vertical shins, as long as the first move of the drive is to reconnect the heels with the foot stretcher at the start of the leg push. Don't wanna be pushing from the balls of the feet for the main drive.

Slowing down is good - very good. It's absolutely possible to get good power at stroke ratings (term we use more than spm) in the lower teens, and working at that can be helpful because the lower spm gives you more think/feel time for technique. If you work on power at a low rating through technique, then gradually increase spm while holding onto the technique and power, that's a good way to progress IMO. Most on-water rowers do huge amounts of indoor rowing at spm in the 20s, and even good rowers use stroke ratings in the teens sometimes for drills. Higher 20s into the 30s is for more limited race-pace training, typically.

As an aside, there's typically a stroke rating at which technique falls apart - maybe not for world-class rowers, but for many of us normal people. On the rowing machine, that technique loss can be a tradeoff for what one can wring out of power and endurance (to a certain extent) at the higher rating. On the water, it normally shows up quite clearly as a slower pace at the higher rating, because technique matters more on water. (Our coach would work with us at various ratings in big boats, and tell us what range to race in. In the single/double, I do a similar thing with a device (Garmin, these days, though specialized ones can be better for those more serious than I now am about training.) )

(On a bunch of threads, I've posted a video of a young woman, Sofia Asoumanaki, breaking a world record at what looks to be spm in the 20s most of the way. If you're interested & haven't seen it, I can post a link. It's quite startling to people who think you have to take the slide like a bat out of perdition to get good pace or a good workout.)

Consider videoing yourself and reviewing it in comparison to the good instructional videos, if you have a convenient way to do that. If you plan on continuing with this, investing up front in getting good technique into muscle memory is a Really Good Plan. Reprogramming is harder. (Ask me how I know. ).

Easy to pick up? Average performance at gyms argues otherwise. You're paying attention to technique, so I think there's more hope for you than average, though. Difficult to master? All those technique details - especially with on-water, but even with machine - are part of what makes rowing fun long term: So many opportunities to fine tune and improve.

Apologies for yet another essay. I could talk about rowing all day. It's a character fault. :flowerforyou:

sgt1372 wrote: »

aokoye wrote: »

I'm hesitant to correct you because I am not a rowing coach nor have I undergone any coaching education. That said, I think you're a bit off base. The sequence of the stroke, both on the erg and on the water is legs, body, arms and then in reverse (during the recovery) arms, body, legs.

In your first step you said to "Push with your legs as you pull the handle towards your chest to start the movement. ". To me, that sounds like you're saying that you start pulling with your arms at the beginning of the drive (the first part of the stroke). I might be misunderstanding what you've written though. It would be easier explained by quoting one of Concept 2's pages:

Start the drive by pressing with your legs, and then swing the back through the vertical position before finally adding the arm pull.

There are some other things going on in your six step summary that fly counter to numerous things that I've been taught by a number of qualified coaches (sometimes it feels like I have too many coaches, but they don't contradict each other), what I've read on Concept 2's website, as well as what I've seen on a the handful of rowing technique videos that I've watched (most of which are aimed at people rowing on the water).

Regarding my 1st "tip," I was trying to say exactly what was stated in your C2 reference.

The movement begins by "pressing w/your legs" which provides most of the power for the move and then pulling the handle back in coordination w/the press, which requires some (but not most of the strength) required to initiate the pull. When the legs are fully extended, the upper body then takes over to complete the pull.

FWIW, I do not consider myself an "expert" on rowing either but, when I 1st started rowing about 4 years ago, I read and watched everything available on C2's website in order to learn how to row properly. I also consulted other online resources as well; many of them previously mentioned by others in this thread.

I currently row 5km/day (and have rowed 10km/day previously) and over the past 3 years have logged (on C2's Logbook website) over 5 Million Meters on my C2 Rower in the past 3 years using the tips mentioned. So, while I do not consider myself an "expert," I do regard myself as a very experienced rower.

Of course, there is more to learning how to row than what's mentioned in those few tips.

However, my purpose in listing them was not to provide a comprehensive guide on how to row BUT was intended to try to simplify the varied advice that I saw/read/heard when I first started to learn how to row (and that others have gone on to explain in excruciating and mind numbing detail above in this thread) and to just provide a few highlights that should be useful to the OP and others to consider while they are learning how to row.

You and others who disagree w/my suggestions are free to disagree and ignore them but they are based on my experience w/o any apparent deficiencies in my form and ability to row effectively and without injury.

All I can say is that the tips suggested have worked for me and I believe that they should work for others too.

If you try them and they do not work for you fine but to dismiss them w/o trying them because they do not make sense to you intellectually (or otherwise seem contrary to what you seen/read or been told by others) seems shortsighted to me.

But, it's a free country. Do as you please.

Ciao!

If you think I was responding to your initial post (with the tips) with any sort of malice, you'd be wrong. I can assure you that I thought through what I wrote for quite some time before hitting "Post Reply" Also note that while you put tip in quotes, I was using your word that you had used, "I think you can reduce them all to these basic tips".

For better or worse, despite your wanting to give some straight forward/uncomplicated tips, your tips were fairly convoluted and as has been noted by multiple people, some of them were just wrong (I agree with AnnPT about the back arching bit). Outside of what was clearly wrong (which I wasn't the first to point out), there was very little that I dismissed. Going with your first tip, I clearly said that I may have misunderstood you. If you think that admitting that you may be misreading someone and providing space for them to clarify is an intellectual failing and being dismissive then I'm not sure what to tell you.

That you're seemingly unwilling to admit that some of what you wrote might actually be wrong, with regards to technique, seems short sighted. Bad technique, especially when minor, doesn't have to lead to injury. Being wrong isn't bad, it's how we grow as athletes and as people. Being wrong, figuring out how we can improve, and leaning into that. It's not always comfortable and it takes some vulnerability but that's not a bad thing.

Forgot about these two apps - LiveRowing for the C2 and this one, which looks really promising. If you ever get access to a C2 on a regular basis, this one's free.

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/row-vigor/id1230698992

This one is one I might have to try. Looks very intriguing to add more interest to the machine.

Most rowers that I know love their SkiErgs. If you have a Facebook account also, there's an open group called Concept2 Logbook. Now, some of these guys (and women) are insane about it. Some of the times I see on the SkiErg blow my mind. I haven't tried it but some of the current WR holders on the SkiErg are online rowing buddies of mine that I got to know on the C2 Forums. Many have become Facebook friends as well now.

From what they tell me (and I want one), it's a wonderful compliment to the Rowing Erg.

BTW, if you really end up getting into either the Concept2 rower or the SkiErg, there are monthly online groups or clubs that compete against each other. I'm a member of "Sub 7", which has many members that Cross train on SkiErgs, WattBikes, ErgBikes and the C2 Rower. Some of the most incredible athletes I've ever seen. I pale in comparison as a weekend wanna be athlete.

The website for the monthly challenges is http://www.c2ctc.com/ Now, there are world class athletes near the top. I'm usually closer to the bottom on these monthly challenges. They even had a SkiErg team on there. Most clubs are open -- anyone can join -- even if just for the off season while you can't climb or ski. Even if you just want to do one comp a month, it's another level of fun for C2 owners.