Increasing heart BPM as a fitness gauge
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vivo1972
Posts: 129 Member
One of my things is to try and increase my max bpm as it's off season so I do hard sprints on the gym bike.
Really chuffed with today's stats - my best yet with learnt controlled breathing without feeling out of sorts
Looking forward to some decent elevation rides!
Does anyone else gauge their fitness this way? I really enjoy it.
PS 20 mins/5 miles at slowly increasing resistance. I'm a 47 yr old fat lass
Really chuffed with today's stats - my best yet with learnt controlled breathing without feeling out of sorts
Looking forward to some decent elevation rides!
Does anyone else gauge their fitness this way? I really enjoy it.
PS 20 mins/5 miles at slowly increasing resistance. I'm a 47 yr old fat lass
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Replies
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Nice workout: It can be really exhilarating to push to an extreme, once base fitness is in place!
In my understanding, actual HRmax doesn't much increase with fitness. That said, doing occasional (not daily or routine) workouts at/near max can have fitness benefits.
I'm 64, active since mid-40s, actual HRmax around 180 (genetics). I gauge my fitness more by resting heart rate and ability to sustain a certain pace/intensity over time without major post-exercise fatigue, but I think our goals in that respect should depend a lot on what our particular fitness priorities are. (I strive to be a short endurance athlete, though no longer much competing .)6 -
"Does anyone else gauge their fitness this way? I really enjoy it."
Erm no, the complete opposite really - lower HR at same or better power output is one of my fitness measures as is a low RHR.
For example recently I achieved one of my goals of a decent power output (for me) of 172 watts for an hour while staying in HR zone 3. That's a real benefit in maintaining a high average speed.
The amount of time I spend near my max HR is exceedingly small and of trivial relevance to my overall riding performance. Pushing into "the red zone" on a long ride is usually counter productive to a good average speed as you don't completely recover.16 -
Interesting differences. Are you road riders? I spend a lot of time off road and find the breath control thing at Max helps me when the ground is soft and I have to grit my teeth.
I still find road hills difficult whereas my roadie mates go up them with ease. I’m guessing as you said it’s the hare and tortoise technique I forget when I swap terrain.
What zones do you stay in (approximately) when doing long rides? Talkable but mouth breathing or less? I’ve got a road event coming up I’m gonna have to get back in the zone of a level pace!
Ps I only ride for fun and headspace, I’m not competitive. Just a fan girl 😁1 -
I'm a long distance road cyclist.
I'm with the ones who aim for a low resting HR and accomplishing the same things at lower heart rates.
I was horrified when I did my first race on Zwift last week ... my average HR was 167 bpm over the 44 minutes and the average was 175 bpm. No wonder I struggled to get through that race!! I'd really like to do one of those races with an average HR at 160 bpm and thus have room to push hard through sprints.3 -
I am a runner but I also am looking for improvements in pace/effort at a given HR or a lower HR for a given pace/effort.
Meaning that I look at my HR that used to be 170 at a 10 min/mile pace, but now it’s 130. Or I used to run 12 min/mile pace at a HR of 135, now it’s an 8 min/mile pace at HR 135.
I don’t think my max HR changes much (if at all). I become fitter and in the very, very, very few times I’m anywhere near it, I may have developed more power/speed such that I’m able to get a beat or 2 closer to it than I used to be able to.
But I’m really looking for better output (pace/endurance) at a lower HR. That shows I’m increasing my ability to do “work” (it’s less difficult to do the same thing), which means I’m getting more fit.
I’m 45. My max HR is 188. I do the vast majority of my running (like 90%+) in the 120’s and 130’s. I race much higher and do some higher intensity training that also goes much higher. But most is zone 2-ish. Particularly long runs.4 -
Yup, I also go for a lower HR for the same effort as a sign of increasing fitness for the most part. I was really pleased at the weekend when I got up a hill at 117bpm!3
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Interesting differences. Are you road riders? I spend a lot of time off road and find the breath control thing at Max helps me when the ground is soft and I have to grit my teeth.
I still find road hills difficult whereas my roadie mates go up them with ease. I’m guessing as you said it’s the hare and tortoise technique I forget when I swap terrain.
What zones do you stay in (approximately) when doing long rides? Talkable but mouth breathing or less? I’ve got a road event coming up I’m gonna have to get back in the zone of a level pace!
Ps I only ride for fun and headspace, I’m not competitive. Just a fan girl 😁
Yes I'm a road rider. (I'm very competitive but mostly with myself!
)
I use power more than HR zones but in reality it "all depends"!
How long the ride, what I'm trying to get from the ride (high average speed, fun, endurance, targeted hills, specific training effect etc..)
Rather than the broad brush of zones by HR (taking into account my min / max range of typically 48 / tested 175bpm) typically 150bpm is for an hour or less, 140 for up to 3hrs, 130's for 3hrs+.
On the RideLondon100 last year I set my fastest ever two hours at the start pushing hard and was fairly consistently at around 140bpm, conversation possible but a little staccato. Big peaks in the middle for the hill climbs, mostly in the 130's for the last third.
Must confess I'm a little dubious you are actually increasing your true max HR, as that tends to be fairly set. What does change with practice is the ability to work closer to your max HR and attain a higher HR (which may or may not be your true max). Mine was tested in a sports science lab to the point of collapse and it took three days to recover. That did give me confidence on evil hills like Ditching Beacon that although it feels like I'm about to die I'm not really....
(Wonder if Loughborough University offer testing if that interests you? It's a hateful experience but very informative and interesting.)
Something I do nearer the end of the winter indoor training is intervals of Z5 but with recovery to Z3 (rather than Z2) which more closely mimics my kind of riding when I'm trying for a high average speed on courses with hard climbs.
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Yes I'm a road rider. (I'm very competitive but mostly with myself! )
I use power more than HR zones but in reality it "all depends"!
How long the ride, what I'm trying to get from the ride (high average speed, fun, endurance, targeted hills, specific training effect etc..)
Rather than the broad brush of zones by HR (taking into account my min / max range of typically 48 / tested 175bpm) typically 150bpm is for an hour or less, 140 for up to 3hrs, 130's for 3hrs+.
On the RideLondon100 last year I set my fastest ever two hours at the start pushing hard and was fairly consistently at around 140bpm, conversation possible but a little staccato. Big peaks in the middle for the hill climbs, mostly in the 130's for the last third.
Must confess I'm a little dubious you are actually increasing your true max HR, as that tends to be fairly set. What does change with practice is the ability to work closer to your max HR and attain a higher HR (which may or may not be your true max). Mine was tested in a sports science lab to the point of collapse and it took three days to recover. That did give me confidence on evil hills like Ditching Beacon that although it feels like I'm about to die I'm not really....
(Wonder if Loughborough University offer testing if that interests you? It's a hateful experience but very informative and interesting.)
Something I do nearer the end of the winter indoor training is intervals of Z5 but with recovery to Z3 (rather than Z2) which more closely mimics my kind of riding when I'm trying for a high average speed on courses with hard climbs.
You could be right there. My bike last summer was a recumbent tadpole trike and it’s a beast to get uphill. My heart would pound and I couldn’t breathe. I can do a metric century on it but an imperial century is just way beyond me lol. I’m gonna try it on a two wheeler cos it’s easier 😉, apart from the bum pain and falling off....
What I’ve been trying to do is ride for 20 mins as hard as I can controlling my breathing. Maybe it’s getting higher each time as I am not stopping to catch my breath plus my sprint muscles are stronger so I can push nearer my max as you said. Interesting 😁
I would be fascinated to find out what my actual max is, even if only for curiosity! Isn’t it flexible though? My heart is stronger and can push itself harder with training it’s own muscle? It’s susposed to be going down according to all the blurb but mine isn’t 😂 Maybe I have a freak heart ...,
Btw my resting heart rate is 59 so I’m ok with pushing myself a couple of times a week. I get a great buzz and the gym has a better shower than mine at home 😎0 -
In my understanding, Sijomial is right: True max heart rate is mostly fixed in an individual, and genetic. It varies quite widely among superficially similar people (i.e., the age based estimating formulas are inaccurate for many people, sometimes very inaccurate). It tends, in individuals, to decline with age. I've read that it declines more slowly in individuals who continue to train.
I have a tested HR max, around 180. At age 64, age formulas would estimate lower, low as 156. Working up very near and to HRmax (180) in workouts is punitively exhausting, and I can't stay there more than briefly - literally can't, body underperforms.
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.2 -
Has been interesting - ty. I don't think I'll go to Loughborough mind, I couldn't handle the beasting !0
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From everything I've read you don't really significantly change your max HR. But as @AnnPT77 says people who train intensely do seem to slow any age related reduction in max HR.
But you can dramatically increase your heart's pumping efficiency and exercise performance at the same HR as your fitness improves. Yes the heart is a muscle and with appropriate training it responds by pumping higher blood volume per heartbeat rather than at a higher speed. Hence why bradycardia is very common (but not universal) amongst endurance athletes.
I only got into cycling in my early 50's and my RHR reduced by 20% from what was for me already a good level (60bpm) down to 48bpm and my power at same HR is up about 25 - 30%.
If you are just repeatedly doing 20min high intensity work I think you would benefit from adding in longer duration low to moderate intensity work too. Under and over FTP intervals are also a great way to push fitness levels up (pushing above the level you can sustain and then recovering).
Do beware that an elevated resting HR can be one sign of over training / under recovering, pushing hard all the time isn't normally the optimal way to train.4 -
From everything I've read you don't really significantly change your max HR. But as @AnnPT77 says people who train intensely do seem to slow any age related reduction in max HR.
But you can dramatically increase your heart's pumping efficiency and exercise performance at the same HR as your fitness improves. Yes the heart is a muscle and with appropriate training it responds by pumping higher blood volume per heartbeat rather than at a higher speed. Hence why bradycardia is very common (but not universal) amongst endurance athletes.
I only got into cycling in my early 50's and my RHR reduced by 20% from what was for me already a good level (60bpm) down to 48bpm and my power at same HR is up about 25 - 30%.
If you are just repeatedly doing 20min high intensity work I think you would benefit from adding in longer duration low to moderate intensity work too. Under and over FTP intervals are also a great way to push fitness levels up (pushing above the level you can sustain and then recovering).
Do beware that an elevated resting HR can be one sign of over training / under recovering, pushing hard all the time isn't normally the optimal way to train.
Ty.
It's one thing I do amongst others I do aqua aerobics, mid distance road riding (about 60K) and zen days out on the trails with my bike and pooch. Oh yeah and walking, lots of walking (I don't own a car). It was just something that interested me and I was initially curious if anyone else used a max HR sprint as a fitness thing... I've got a road sportive coming up and I am completely not ready for it so I'm taking the shorter distance, I am body aware no worries with that but ty for your advice/mentioning it
As I said my resting HR is quite healthy for a middle-aged fat lass on a bike 1 -
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.
Ah yes very similar to your 'only' rowing: 15-20 mins near max output. That's it, maybe my 'max' is higher than I initially thought - genes and stuff as you mentioned. That or I feel no pain because I'm numb 1 -
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.
Ah yes very similar to your 'only' rowing: 15-20 mins near max output. That's it, maybe my 'max' is higher than I initially thought - genes and stuff as you mentioned. That or I feel no pain because I'm numb
If you've felt no pain or at least nothing akin to it, your true max is probably somewhere above anywhere you've seen so far. Working up near and at actual max is oddly exhilarating, but very uncomfortable, IME; and you'll note that sijomial said something similar above about testing for max.
What you're experiencing is all perfectly normal, and where I'd anticipate you'd be, as you've described your current progress toward fitness. Sijomial's post above about doing the bulk of work at low intensity, etc., is 100% chock-full of true truthful truthiness, and he knows much, much more about cycling training than I do.
The one thing I'd say: While rowing training is aimed at optimizing the "10 (or whatever) minute max sustainable effort" kind of thing . . . we only very rarely train at race pace for race lengths of time. We train long periods of time at much slower than race pace; some medium times in varying chunks with varying goals; and a very, very few workouts that involve going faster than race pace for periods of time that are shorter than races, but repeated. (One example of a workout that might be part of training for a 2k race could be six repeats of 500 meters, short rest periods in between, at a pace a small number of seconds faster than race pace: that would be a pace we can physically reach, but we can't physically sustain it for the full time period of a 2k race). There are occasional tests of race pace for a race distance, but for benchmarking more than for training effect of that workout.
I'd expect proper ideal cycling training to be similarly structured and a bit arcane, but I won't try to say what it is, because it's not what I do. I suspect there are free cycling training plans for various goal formats; you might want to take a look at some, for general background information, even if you don't care to formally run such a program. Many people who are relatively new to exercise have ideas about how best to train that . . . aren't really how best to train, unfortunately.
Best wishes for continuing fitness development!
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What I’ve been trying to do is ride for 20 mins as hard as I can controlling my breathing. Maybe it’s getting higher each time as I am not stopping to catch my breath plus my sprint muscles are stronger so I can push nearer my max as you said. Interesting 😁
I would be fascinated to find out what my actual max is, even if only for curiosity! Isn’t it flexible though? My heart is stronger and can push itself harder with training it’s own muscle? It’s susposed to be going down according to all the blurb but mine isn’t 😂 Maybe I have a freak heart ...,
Riding for 20 minutes as hard as you can with controlled breathing is neither sprinting nor working anywhere near your max HR.
As the others have mentioned, max HR is, we believe, fixed ... although it may decline with age.
I'm in my early 50s ... in my early 30s my max HR was 194 ... now, based on my recent Zwift race, I would guess that my max HR is somewhere in the mid-to-high-180s.
If you want to get an idea of what your max HR is, find a hill of about 1 km in length. Do a warm up, riding up and down the hill casually. Then go up that hill as hard as you can until you feel you can hardly get air in, your legs are screaming, and your vision goes a bit blurry. There's nothing controlled about it and it hurts.
Check your HR and also monitor how long it takes to for it to return to about 120 or so. Ride casually for a bit, cool down ... and give it another go.
Bring a friend with you, just in case.
What are your goals with regard to cycling?0 -
In my understanding, Sijomial is right: True max heart rate is mostly fixed in an individual, and genetic. It varies quite widely among superficially similar people (i.e., the age based estimating formulas are inaccurate for many people, sometimes very inaccurate). It tends, in individuals, to decline with age. I've read that it declines more slowly in individuals who continue to train.
I have a tested HR max, around 180. At age 64, age formulas would estimate lower, low as 156. Working up very near and to HRmax (180) in workouts is punitively exhausting, and I can't stay there more than briefly - literally can't, body underperforms.
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.
For what it's worth, my average HR on an erg is always significantly higher than on a bike when the RPE is the similar. That's with using a chest HR strap because the wrist based one suck for both rowing and cycling (outside) in terms of accuracy 0 -
In my understanding, Sijomial is right: True max heart rate is mostly fixed in an individual, and genetic. It varies quite widely among superficially similar people (i.e., the age based estimating formulas are inaccurate for many people, sometimes very inaccurate). It tends, in individuals, to decline with age. I've read that it declines more slowly in individuals who continue to train.
I have a tested HR max, around 180. At age 64, age formulas would estimate lower, low as 156. Working up very near and to HRmax (180) in workouts is punitively exhausting, and I can't stay there more than briefly - literally can't, body underperforms.
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.
For what it's worth, my average HR on an erg is always significantly higher than on a bike when the RPE is the similar. That's with using a chest HR strap because the wrist based one suck for both rowing and cycling (outside) in terms of accuracy
I've read some things suggesting that as a practical matter, HRmax is activity-specific. I haven't delved into it enough to really understand what that means, whether it's true, and what the implications would be.
I have trouble getting my heart rate as high during spin class (ever) as I can easily get it on a rowing machine. I assumed that had something to do with engaging more body parts, so needing more oxygen delivery, but I have no idea, really (and don't much care, except casual curiosity).
I don't have a clear opinion about my RPE in that context, because after a certain point (when actively trying to drive HR up) I'm intentionally paying as little attention as I can manage to how I feel, because it mostly isn't delightful, in the moment. The exhilaration I mentioned is mostly an after-effect.
Interesting, but I think not really terribly relevant for OP, at least at this point. JMO.1 -
In my understanding, Sijomial is right: True max heart rate is mostly fixed in an individual, and genetic. It varies quite widely among superficially similar people (i.e., the age based estimating formulas are inaccurate for many people, sometimes very inaccurate). It tends, in individuals, to decline with age. I've read that it declines more slowly in individuals who continue to train.
I have a tested HR max, around 180. At age 64, age formulas would estimate lower, low as 156. Working up very near and to HRmax (180) in workouts is punitively exhausting, and I can't stay there more than briefly - literally can't, body underperforms.
But I'm 'only' a rower, not a cyclist. Oversimplifying slightly, when racing (I don't, anymore), we train for working as near maximum output (and so HR) as we can sustain for race length (from 5 minutes-ish to 20-minutes-ish, usually 5-10 depending on age group, race length, etc.).
I also think that what you're observing in yourself is increasing fitness, in the form of being able to reach higher output (at X heart rate, when it used to require X+Y heart rate) and sustain higher output for longer time periods, which is good stuff.
For what it's worth, my average HR on an erg is always significantly higher than on a bike when the RPE is the similar. That's with using a chest HR strap because the wrist based one suck for both rowing and cycling (outside) in terms of accuracy
I've read some things suggesting that as a practical matter, HRmax is activity-specific. I haven't delved into it enough to really understand what that means, whether it's true, and what the implications would be.
I have trouble getting my heart rate as high during spin class (ever) as I can easily get it on a rowing machine. I assumed that had something to do with engaging more body parts, so needing more oxygen delivery, but I have no idea, really (and don't much care, except casual curiosity).
I don't have a clear opinion about my RPE in that context, because after a certain point (when actively trying to drive HR up) I'm intentionally paying as little attention as I can manage to how I feel, because it mostly isn't delightful, in the moment. The exhilaration I mentioned is mostly an after-effect.
Interesting, but I think not really terribly relevant for OP, at least at this point. JMO.
I've read the same - the same is true (logically) for Vo2Max. Mind you I haven't felt the need to have mine tested.0 -
Improving resting HR is the measure of fitness.
Increasing HR is not a sign of fitness and studies conclude that being close to max heart rate for long periods of time is more detrimental than beneficial.0 -
rodnichols69 wrote: »Improving resting HR is the measure of fitness.
Increasing HR is not a sign of fitness and studies conclude that being close to max heart rate for long periods of time is more detrimental than beneficial.
That's interesting: Do you have a link to one of those studies?0
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