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Thoughts on getting old vs aging
Replies
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I turn 54 this coming March. In my early 40’s I decided I wasn’t going to get old lol. Had maintained a decent activity level, but could tell things were changing. Took on P90x and Insanity...then weight lifting. At 43 I started dirt biking....what a steep learning curve there...still going even though it’s tough. My first half marathon is coming up in May. I hate the idea of getting old and just laying around.....there are too many fun things to do and try in this short life2
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Just started reading the book Fast After 50 (Joe Friel).
As I wasn't fast before 50 it's going to be a challenge.
Very interesting book so far.
I only got into cycling seriously at age 53 (in 2013) so I've seen nothing but upward fitness progress until this year when injury intervened. My advice, which seems to align with the author's view, is don't train like an old person - keep pushing hard with intensity, be ambitious and not resigned to decline, fight it.
I'm also a fan of Friel's work, and in particular, his book Fast After 50. I love how he starts by outlining all the factors that work against us as we age, then offers a series of steps we can take to offset many of those factors. I also love how he provides examples of training regimens that athletes have used to help maintain performance as they age, such as moving from a 7 day to a 9 day training week in order to provide more recovery days between high intensity sessions. And agree that his point about "train hard to race hard" is central to maintaining high performance in endurance sports.
As such, I have no plans to slow down at 62 years old. I took a year off to rehab an injury last year, but this year its back to racing with the same goal: becoming faster.
I'm in the same boat as you two. Nearly a year off due to injury and my plan to compete at Nationals in Indoor Rowing at 55 was thwarted. I went from a 90% in my age range to 10% to 20% currently. But I'm slowly getting stronger again. Back up to 50K meters rowing last week and likely will hit 60K meters this week. I'll soon be up over 250K meters a month again. Then, considering two a days.
My kids used to get me comfort stuff and now it's Battle Ropes, a Power Tower, heavier KBs and a Plyo Box. They say "you're insane" about my cardio. That's a compliment to me. Patience is a virtue coming back from injury, though, so let's all keep it incremental and smart!
I want so badly to compete against a guy who's a legend in the Indoor Rowing community -- former WR holder and trains the Navy Seals BUD/S program currently (and wrote what is basically the most famous rowing training plan that there is, like the Hal Higdon of Indoor Rowing). Seals are intimidated by this guy's training plans. I likely can't beat him but I'd love to push him just once in a race.1 -
MikePfirrman wrote: »Just started reading the book Fast After 50 (Joe Friel).
As I wasn't fast before 50 it's going to be a challenge.
Very interesting book so far.
I only got into cycling seriously at age 53 (in 2013) so I've seen nothing but upward fitness progress until this year when injury intervened. My advice, which seems to align with the author's view, is don't train like an old person - keep pushing hard with intensity, be ambitious and not resigned to decline, fight it.
I'm also a fan of Friel's work, and in particular, his book Fast After 50. I love how he starts by outlining all the factors that work against us as we age, then offers a series of steps we can take to offset many of those factors. I also love how he provides examples of training regimens that athletes have used to help maintain performance as they age, such as moving from a 7 day to a 9 day training week in order to provide more recovery days between high intensity sessions. And agree that his point about "train hard to race hard" is central to maintaining high performance in endurance sports.
As such, I have no plans to slow down at 62 years old. I took a year off to rehab an injury last year, but this year its back to racing with the same goal: becoming faster.
I'm in the same boat as you two. Nearly a year off due to injury and my plan to compete at Nationals in Indoor Rowing at 55 was thwarted. I went from a 90% in my age range to 10% to 20% currently. But I'm slowly getting stronger again. Back up to 50K meters rowing last week and likely will hit 60K meters this week. I'll soon be up over 250K meters a month again. Then, considering two a days.
My kids used to get me comfort stuff and now it's Battle Ropes, a Power Tower, heavier KBs and a Plyo Box. They say "you're insane" about my cardio. That's a compliment to me. Patience is a virtue coming back from injury, though, so let's all keep it incremental and smart!
I want so badly to compete against a guy who's a legend in the Indoor Rowing community -- former WR holder and trains the Navy Seals BUD/S program currently (and wrote what is basically the most famous rowing training plan that there is, like the Hal Higdon of Indoor Rowing). Seals are intimidated by this guy's training plans. I likely can't beat him but I'd love to push him just once in a race.
I hear you loud and clear on both highlighted points. My boys love to tease me about training and racing, but I'm not ready to turn off the competitive switch just yet.
Even though I often finish in the the top third in my age group, the gap between me and the truly fast old guys remains fairly constant. My goal is just to stay within sight of them. 0 -
So here is a question about aging. As we get older we tend to lose height. That is due to bone loss I suppose. We are still the same person but why do we have to eat less to maintain the same? Or do we? I have been 5'2" most of my life but lately being measured the past few years anywhere from 5'1 and 1/4 up to 5'1" and 3/4. Just because my bone structure has made me shorter does not seem like I should need to weigh less or eat less?
thoughts?0 -
Some 18yo kid call me old on the basketball court the other day. My theory is that if you can’t beat me at basketball, you can’t call me the old guy. Call me the “guy that is better then you”.3
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SummerSkier wrote: »So here is a question about aging. As we get older we tend to lose height. That is due to bone loss I suppose. We are still the same person but why do we have to eat less to maintain the same? Or do we? I have been 5'2" most of my life but lately being measured the past few years anywhere from 5'1 and 1/4 up to 5'1" and 3/4. Just because my bone structure has made me shorter does not seem like I should need to weigh less or eat less?
thoughts?
My guess is spine compression and degrading posture makes us shorter. Maybe compression on other joints as well...0 -
I turn 54 this coming March. In my early 40’s I decided I wasn’t going to get old lol. Had maintained a decent activity level, but could tell things were changing. Took on P90x and Insanity...then weight lifting. At 43 I started dirt biking....what a steep learning curve there...still going even though it’s tough. My first half marathon is coming up in May. I hate the idea of getting old and just laying around.....there are too many fun things to do and try in this short life
I’m in my early 40s. Any insights into what happens between now and 54? Anything you wish you knew before?1 -
I try to forget my age and act how I feel. I am never going to act or dress old, ever. I read this poem when I was a young girl and I thought to myself, yep thats gonna be me.
Warning
When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers irT other people's gardens
And learn to spit.
You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.
But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.
But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old and start to wear purple.
From Selected Poems by Jenny Joseph, 19613 -
SummerSkier wrote: »So here is a question about aging. As we get older we tend to lose height. That is due to bone loss I suppose. We are still the same person but why do we have to eat less to maintain the same? Or do we? I have been 5'2" most of my life but lately being measured the past few years anywhere from 5'1 and 1/4 up to 5'1" and 3/4. Just because my bone structure has made me shorter does not seem like I should need to weigh less or eat less?
thoughts?
Yes, the height is about bone loss or compression, typically. I've lost around an inch.
I think whether to weigh less is subjective. At my height, 5'5" vs. the former 5'6", the normal weight range shifts by an absolute number of pounds worth less than one full unit of BMI. My current BMI is 22.5. If I were my younger, taller self, it would be 21.9. That's about the range my daily water-weight fluctuations may cause in a lively week. It's not a meaningful difference for health.
As I'm sure you've heard, some people think we should weigh more when older, even at the same height. I suspect they have in mind a bigger difference than the height change means for most of us.
Clearly, some people have much more major height changes, mostly due to diagnosable medical conditions, and I have no intention at all to make light of that. They need to be consulting closely with their doctors on issues of weight and diet. I'm taking about changes in more statistically average, basically healthy people.
As far as eating less, I think it's more about moving less and having less muscle mass as we age than it is about height. (And muscle mass seems to be inversely related to bone loss, besides.) I posted something on another thread recently that I think is relevant here, especially the experiment described at the end:A TDEE calculator (Sailrabbit, which is multi-formula) says I should expect to maintain, at sedentary, at 1396-1498 calories daily. At the same size, at age 24, it would be 1636-1721 . . . a little over one serving of peanut butter's difference daily, maybe the peanut butter plus a slice of moderately calorie-efficient bread.
Suppose I fill in an estimated body fat percent (BF%), so that Sailrabbit can use formulas that utilize that data in addition to the age/size data. (I don't know my accurate BF%, but I'll use 25% for this example.)
With that added data, Sailrabbit now includes a range for 64-year-old me of 1635-1813 calories at sedentary; and for theoretical 24-year-old me, a new range of . . . 1635-1813 calories.
Just my opinions, as always. 3 -
allother94 wrote: »I turn 54 this coming March. In my early 40’s I decided I wasn’t going to get old lol. Had maintained a decent activity level, but could tell things were changing. Took on P90x and Insanity...then weight lifting. At 43 I started dirt biking....what a steep learning curve there...still going even though it’s tough. My first half marathon is coming up in May. I hate the idea of getting old and just laying around.....there are too many fun things to do and try in this short life
I’m in my early 40s. Any insights into what happens between now and 54? Anything you wish you knew before?
Yeah, ignore the 'old people' who tell you things will go downhill. Maybe it did for them but you have a choice (assuming no disease, accident, or other misfortune). Exercise and eat well consistently and never slow down. Physically your body will slow down but that doesn't mean you have to follow. Always give it your best effort and you'll never notice the small declines.7 -
Aging happens in your body, being old happens in the mind. :-)6
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SummerSkier wrote: »So here is a question about aging. As we get older we tend to lose height. That is due to bone loss I suppose. We are still the same person but why do we have to eat less to maintain the same? Or do we? I have been 5'2" most of my life but lately being measured the past few years anywhere from 5'1 and 1/4 up to 5'1" and 3/4. Just because my bone structure has made me shorter does not seem like I should need to weigh less or eat less?
thoughts?
I have considered this for a while. I have lost about 1.5 inches. If I play around with how my BMI would be different at my previous full stature versus now; it would be a difference (today) of exactly one point (22.7 versus 21.7). My scale calculates it at 23.2 for goobers' sake. I have had back issues since my early 20s, so I expect my height loss is disc compression. It is what it is. But disc compression shouldn't affect the other parts of my meat sack and skeleton. Surely I've had some bone density loss, so that comes into play, too.
I am pretty sure that the goal weight and range that I have set for myself is pretty close to what is ideal for me. I do still need to lose some fat mass, and in order not to go under my goal I'll need to gain lean mass. Good luck with that. My BIA scale tells me that over the longer term (about 20 months) I'm bouncing up and down around 21%. When I look at pictures online of what men look like at different body fat percentages, it seems to be somewhat accurate. I'd like to get to 17, and I was as low as an average of 18 last winter. I know 18 is possible. It's a slow train, but I'm already checked through to my final destination, so I'll keep chugging along.
I also found, as you probably did too, the SMART BMI calculator. It takes age and sex into account. The smart BMI puts me smack in the middle of the "normal weight range" and "low health risk" range. It tells me I can gain three pounds and still be in the healthy range, not that I plan to. I find this analysis settling, but don't know if it is any better than BMI.
Good luck on your journey. This is an interesting question, and I'd love to hear what dieticians think and what the current science suggests. Nutrition science is really young, and we know so little. It's hard to accept any answer as the One True Answer, but maybe we keep getting closer.1 -
We decided when we reached 50 that we'd had enough of being grown up. We both had the sort of childhoods were we ended up grown up before our time so we decided it was time to do the things we never got to do. Since then we've grown down rather that grown older. I admit we sometimes get funny looks when we're sitting in a tree or playing with a frisbee but I think most people are slightly envious of us. Being grown up is boring.2
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Yeah that's relatable. Age has brought me both benefits and detriments. I'm 51. If I am injured, I don't heal as fast. I have never ignored health problems and won't start now. Nip things in the bud and take care of your body. I won't accept the mind set that I need to stop doing things I like because it's "immature" like going out dancing at the club. I still go. I get no funny looks. I can't pull all nighters any more but I won't give up activities like camping. I refuse to wear frumpy clothes or have my entire eyeshadow palette be browns. Avoid the "get off my lawn dadgum kids" mentality. Life is not over until the reaper comes and don't be inviting him either! Stay active and stay strong. Do things you like and if someone disapproves that's their problem. Do things that are new and things that take a lot of effort.0
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I just celebrated my 36th birthday last year. For maybe the 10th or 12th time or so. I just picked that number and started celebrating it.
We have two divers on our aquarium team that are in their mid-70s. Several others are in their 60s The person who invited me on his Middle Fork Salmon at near high water trip last year just turned 70, and most of the other people on the trip were around his age. I was the youngest person on the trip, and I often find that's the case even in my 50s. I was even the youngest person on my Rogue River trip in 2018, and since it was my permit, I guess I ~could~ have invited some younger folk. Small group, though, and we had a GREAT time. This is at Upper Black Bar Falls.
I had the honor of celebrating the 50th anniversary of my birth playing disc (you might call it a Frisbee) in Redwall Cavern (an amazing feature in Grand Canyon). I think I was the youngest person on THAT trip, too. This is just above Lava Falls a few days later:
and at Crystal a few days before Lava:
Keep enjoying it! Because you only get one spin of the wheel. When friends die way too young, you recognize that you can't stop moving or enjoying because you never know when your turn is over.
I would apologize for the shameless self-promotion of river running, but it's one of my passions.
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Yeah that's relatable. Age has brought me both benefits and detriments. I'm 51. If I am injured, I don't heal as fast. I have never ignored health problems and won't start now. Nip things in the bud and take care of your body. I won't accept the mind set that I need to stop doing things I like because it's "immature" like going out dancing at the club. I still go. I get no funny looks. I can't pull all nighters any more but I won't give up activities like camping. I refuse to wear frumpy clothes or have my entire eyeshadow palette be browns. Avoid the "get off my lawn dadgum kids" mentality. Life is not over until the reaper comes and don't be inviting him either! Stay active and stay strong. Do things you like and if someone disapproves that's their problem. Do things that are new and things that take a lot of effort.
I feel you on this. I started roller skating recently with my kids. A lot of the parents look at me funny while they sit for 2 hours and watch their kids. I could care less what they think and have a blast doing it.2 -
I’m 47 and I am going to run and play and be as active as I can for as long as I can. My great aunt lived to be 100 and she still was gardening and doing everything for herself up until about 3 weeks before she passed. I still go down slides with my granddaughter lol. I’m gonna be “old” in someone else’s eyes regardless. I don’t really worry about that because I remember how old I used to think 30 was. Haha0
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Morganafly wrote: »I try to forget my age and act how I feel. I am never going to act or dress old, ever. I read this poem when I was a young girl and I thought to myself, yep thats gonna be me.
Warning
When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick the flowers irT other people's gardens
And learn to spit.
You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.
But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.
But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old and start to wear purple.
From Selected Poems by Jenny Joseph, 1961
Oh god, this is one of my favourite poems! Also read it first as a young girl.
This and the fact that further up are not one but two Terry Pratchet fans - this is one if my favourite threads (and the thread itself is very good, even without the lovely literary hijacks).
OK I'll stop gushing now. But, well, expressing delight freely is one of the things that keeps me young 2 -
So much insight and positivity here. Judgement should be left out and focus should be on spirit. When I was doing classroom observation for my teacher's certification program, I saw a teacher probably in her late 50's wearing a skirt with varicose veins mapped out all over the back of her legs and in my head I said "oh my goodness, she has no business wearing that skirt." I feel bad just thinking that because once I got to know her, I realized her beauty came from within. I'm 43 and I have varicose veins and I'm sure I'll get more, but I'm not going to stop wearing skirts and I hope people don't judge me the way I judged her but if they do, I can handle it. I learnt my lesson. I think it's so personal to everyone. I am embarassed by my few grays and I dye them but some people feel confident with gray. I'm learning more and more to respect people for who they are on the inside and less of what they look like on the outside.2
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I would apologize for the shameless self-promotion of river running, but it's one of my passions.
I love rafting and am lucky enough to live there with the Snake, Salmon, Locksaw, Selway and Clearwater rivers within minutes to a few hours of where I live. Now I'm bragging shamelessly too.
I'm about to turn 64, still go on the river, often in my open face kayak, many times alone (in the lower Snake) and still ride horseback weekly.
I feel in my 30's, look more my age but heck, I am afterall turning 64 and proud of my "youth"
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If getting that thing is an enticement, you are old.0 -
allother94 wrote: »I turn 54 this coming March. In my early 40’s I decided I wasn’t going to get old lol. Had maintained a decent activity level, but could tell things were changing. Took on P90x and Insanity...then weight lifting. At 43 I started dirt biking....what a steep learning curve there...still going even though it’s tough. My first half marathon is coming up in May. I hate the idea of getting old and just laying around.....there are too many fun things to do and try in this short life
I’m in my early 40s. Any insights into what happens between now and 54? Anything you wish you knew before?
Yeah, ignore the 'old people' who tell you things will go downhill. Maybe it did for them but you have a choice (assuming no disease, accident, or other misfortune). Exercise and eat well consistently and never slow down. Physically your body will slow down but that doesn't mean you have to follow. Always give it your best effort and you'll never notice the small declines.
Amen to that advice, brother.
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I haven't read the other replies, but when I see a post like this, I wonder what "acting my age" means.
I like the poem but do not think it is appropriate at any age to "press alarms" or do things that needlessly inconvenience others.
At the same time, I sit on curbs to eat an ice cream cone. I wear my workout clothes everywhere--I'm highly likely to stick to my workout schedule if the clothes are already on. I don't color my hair and never did; I think I am beautiful in many ways. I laugh at silly jokes and make fun of myself. When I lose the ability to laugh at myself, my end is near.
Staying mobile is the #1 reason I want to lose weight. Moving gets harder if you are significantly overweight, I've found. I'm in the "really struggling" stage, where I am 61 (today), still jogging, still obese II, and feeling it. I could just give up, but I modify, knowing it will get easier if I lose the weight. I wish I could say "when." I'm too familiar with my old patterns to feel that confident yet.
I don't have a lot of patience for people who haven't matured as they age--they gain little wisdom or compassion. There is a huge difference between remaining immature and refusing to let age define you.
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I’m 52 today, and as silly as it sounds, I’m younger in health now than I was at 47 or 48.
Lost 70lbs. Started jogging. Then calisthenics. I have zero plans to stop.
Here is a before and after. I was I think 48 in the before. 52 as of today!
I am near your age and it does not sound silly. When I was at my heaviest I felt 20 years older. After I lost all that weight I feel 20 years younger. Basically I haven't been my actual age for quite some time.
I still have some areas where I feel older but I feel like at least some of that I can solve through physio and general fitness improvement. I just have to keep chipping away at it.
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I'm in my mid 60's and still hike and backpack.....with people in their 70's and 80's. I've gotten slower but I don't care. I plan on doing what I can for as long as I can.3
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A few things have worked well for me as I've aged. I stay physically active EVERYDAY. I'm either lifting weights or doing some sort of cardio or both. I eat within my calorie limits. I engage in still trying to learn things about the human body. I look for the good in every client and accentuate it with them. I stay POSITIVE regardless of how bad a situation can get. I'll work till I CANNOT anymore because stats show that people that keep working seem to live longer and stay more active. I'll still keep enjoying life.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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At 48 I've learned to be patient and go slow. Good form and reasonable weights is so important. I manage my recovery and protect against injury.
The irony is I have to take more time to make gains but I have less time left. lol1 -
At 48 I've learned to be patient and go slow. Good form and reasonable weights is so important. I manage my recovery and protect against injury.
The irony is I have to take more time to make gains but I have less time left. lol
I do competitive indoor rowing (it's a niche sport) at 55 years old. I'm working back from a bad disc injury last year. I've learned, though it's frustrating, you have to let the training come to you, not the other way around. You can't up your intensity/volume just because you want to. You have to really listen to your body and incrementally add it in. If it's too much, back it off. But most importantly, be consistent.
I'm not very fast currently but I'm doing nearly 300K meters a month. I'm back to body weight exercises and plan on adding back in heavier lifting soon (I told myself I wouldn't push the lifting until my body adjusts to all the meters again -- rowing is like light lifting for most of your body with the exception of shoulders and chest, so I mostly do pressups and pushups to supplement for now).
Patience isn't my strongsuit either but you have to be that way or injury will set you back dramatically.
It also helps to have training goals. I would like to race early next year against three of the top guys in my sport in the country (for our age group) out in San Diego. One trains the Navy Seals. One is still competitive nationally in Cross Fit and another is a WR holder on the indoor rower (so is the Navy Seal trainor). They'll all likely wipe the floor with me, but it would be fun testing myself against them. To prep properly means a very rigid but very planned training strategy that included lots of weight training and lots of volume. That has to be crafted carefully to avoid both fatigue and injury setbacks.3 -
What an inspirational group! I'm 58, and had been feeling pretty stuck health-wise since menopause at 50. I'm sure daily wine had nothing to do with it. I was fat as a kid (fat with freckles is the ultimate bully target), lost weight and was generally healthy until my kids left the nest, career fizzled with 2009 market crash, and I turned to wine, which impacts daily physical activities. I've been 95% plant based for a few years and have never taken chronic meds. I've gone up 3 sizes since 50, regardless of a 1200-1500 calorie/day diet w/ exercise 4x/week (I track). I have skin issues, joint issues, low libido, gut issues, hot flashes, mood swings, sleep issues, etc.
I'm taking an extended alcohol break (heading into 6 weeks), and have decided to try bio-identical hormone replacement therapy after reading quite a bit and realizing how much of a role hormones (and hormone loss/imbalance) play in health. I have a slew of post-menopausal and aging symptoms I'm hoping to influence as part of a healthy lifestyle. Curious if anyone else (male or female) has experience with them?2 -
mainelylisa wrote: »What an inspirational group! I'm 58, and had been feeling pretty stuck health-wise since menopause at 50. I'm sure daily wine had nothing to do with it. I was fat as a kid (fat with freckles is the ultimate bully target), lost weight and was generally healthy until my kids left the nest, career fizzled with 2009 market crash, and I turned to wine, which impacts daily physical activities. I've been 95% plant based for a few years and have never taken chronic meds. I've gone up 3 sizes since 50, regardless of a 1200-1500 calorie/day diet w/ exercise 4x/week (I track). I have skin issues, joint issues, low libido, gut issues, hot flashes, mood swings, sleep issues, etc.
I'm taking an extended alcohol break (heading into 6 weeks), and have decided to try bio-identical hormone replacement therapy after reading quite a bit and realizing how much of a role hormones (and hormone loss/imbalance) play in health. I have a slew of post-menopausal and aging symptoms I'm hoping to influence as part of a healthy lifestyle. Curious if anyone else (male or female) has experience with them?
Can you be more specific about the post-menopausal and aging symptoms you're experiencing?
Hormone therapy can work out fine for some people, but there are certain things it's common to attribute to menopause or aging that can be improved in other ways, as well. Bodies are complicated! :flowerforyou:
(Truth in advertising: I'm postmenopausal (20 year-ish), but haven't and wouldn't consider HRT. This is an individual issue: Having had multiple estrogen-fed malignant tumors that tried to kill me (stage III cancer) a couple of decades back, HRT is very, very contraindicated for me. But, for myself and as part of cancer support groups (along with training as a peer support volunteer), I'm familiar with some non-HRT measures that can help with symptoms. In my cancer-type subgroup, it's standard to take drugs that block or prevent in-body synthesis of estrogens, so extremes of menopausal symptoms are fairly common. In most menopausal women, there's still some estrogen from adrenals and fat cells; the cancer treatments block these.)1
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